Editing Talk:Recoil damage

== Pichu dash grab ==

Yep, the up smash and regular grab were wrong (don't know where I got that from), but doesn't its dash grab do recoil damage? I don't really remember. <sup>Smiddle&nbsp;</sup>[[User:Smiddle|君怒る]][[user talk:Smiddle|?]] 02:38, 4 September 2011 (EDT)

:Pichu's dash grab deals no damage to Pichu; I played Melee against my brother a few days ago, and he frequently uses grabs and throws as the little bugger. ''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]]'''''[[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]]''' 10:35, 4 September 2011 (EDT)

::Not even when the grab connects? I could've sworn... <sup>Smiddle&nbsp;</sup>[[User:Smiddle|君怒る]][[user talk:Smiddle|?]] 03:55, 5 September 2011 (EDT)

:::IIRC, Pichu damages itself with its pummel and forward throw, but not with its grab. It's been a while since I played ''Melee''. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 21:21, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
::::Please don't respond to several-year-old discussions. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 21:27, 27 August 2018 (EDT)

== Damage ==

Doesn't Lucas's up special deal damage to himself in brawl? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Sandvich9|Sandvich9]] ([[User talk:Sandvich9|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Sandvich9|contribs]]) 12:41, 13 September 2012</small>
:No, don't know why you'd think it does. But anyways, you failed to sign again, so you're going to be punished. Just read your damn talk page. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="ff8c00">'''Toast'''</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="01a3c4">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 07:51, 13 September 2012 (EDT)

== Uh, why is Ridley here? ==

I fail to see how that counts as recoil. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 19:57, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
:He takes recoil damage if he is hit while charging his neutral special. [[File:George Jones.jpg|25px]] [[User:George Jones|George Jones]] [[File:Walls Can Fall.jpg|25px]] 19:58, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
::I'm sorry, but I don't really consider that to be recoil. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 20:15, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
:::Recoil is when you yourself take damage, yes? Then it counts. Roy and Ike only take recoil if it's fully charged (which doesn't happen often in tournaments <s>much less someone playing as Roy</s>), G&W takes damage only on Judge 1, and hell, DK gets damage when someone leaves his cargo in Melee. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 21:08, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
::::What does that have to do with Ridley? He isn't damaging himself; the opponent is. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 22:07, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
::::I have to agree with Unowninator here. If the damage requires an opponent's hit to happen, which is what happens with Ridley's neutral special, it's not recoil. All forms of true recoil damage in the series happen without influence from opponents. (EDIT: Well, escaping DK's cargo in Melee is an exception, but that still doesn't require him to get hit by an attack like Ridley's neutral special does.) [[File:034.png|20px]] '''<span style="font-family:Algerian">[[User:DracoRexKing|<font color="red">DracoRex,]]</font> [[User talk:DracoRexKing|<font color="olive">Creator of the Land]]</font></span>''' 22:12, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
:::::My main point of giving other examples was that there are other unlikely situations where recoil wouldn't necessarily occur as often as, say, Pichu's every attack.
:::::As for your argument, Draco, a simple jab would give the same amount of damage towards Ridley in this situation as any other attack, so there ''is'' some recoil damage in place here. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:37, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
::::::? ? ? ? ? ? ? Either you just proved <I>my</I> point, or I'm misunderstanding you. If a jab does the same amount of damage, how is it recoil? [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 22:48, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
<small>(Reset indent) </small> I was saying that the jab damage was on ''top'' of the recoil. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 23:18, 27 August 2018 (EDT)
:Yes I believe the current understanding is that Ridley takes both the damage from the attack and recoil damage from the move's special behaviour. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 06:47, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
::Okay, I am very confused, no matter how much I read this. Can someone please explain this differently? Why is it considered recoil? [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 11:45, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
:::Say Ridley is charging up his neutral special. He gets hit by Mario's jab in the middle. He takes much more damage than he's normally supposed to, since Mario's jab is a weak attack and only does (in Smash 4) 2.5%. There is added damage that serves as recoil that is added to the damage that Mario gives Ridley for jabbing him. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 14:23, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
::::And that counts as recoil? I personally disagree. Extra damage or not, I feel like it isn't really recoil if it involves being hit by another character. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 14:49, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
:::::He has damage applied to him in such and such circumstance. That ''is'' recoil. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 14:53, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
::::::But he's not damaging <I>himself</I>; he's just taking extra damage from the foe. I'm sorry, but I just can't agree with this. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 15:01, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
:::::::From looking at the list of things that cause recoil damage, I noticed a couple of common trends that distinguish recoil damage from damage taken by being attacked, and these trends are completely separate from the baseline definition of "recoil damage = self-inflicted; attack damage = opponent-inflicted". Looking at these trends could be useful for helping us decide whether or not the damage caused by Ridley's Plasma Breath being interrupted while charging is really recoil damage. (By the way, I'm calling Ridley's neutral special move "Plasma Breath" just for simplicity's sake; the move may or may not actually be officially called "Plasma Breath", but we don't know that yet.)
:::::::*Does the damage Ridley takes depend on how much damage was dealt by the attack that interrupted his Plasma Breath charge, or is the damage Ridley takes consistent regardless of how he flinches (i.e. a set amount of damage added to the damage caused by the interrupting blow)? Pretty much every instance of recoil damage in the series always increments the damage meter by the same amount each time the action that causes the recoil occurs. (Yes, this includes {{SSB4|Ike}}'s [[Eruption]], {{SSB4|Charizard}}'s [[Flare Blitz]], and {{SSBM|Pichu}}'s down aerial. Furious Eruption is technically different from Eruption, Blast Burn is different from Flare Blitz, starting up Flare Blitz/Blast Burn and colliding with a character, wall, or object during Flare Blitz/Blast Burn are separate actions, and starting Pichu's down aerial is separate from hitting the ground during Pichu's down aerial. All of these do the same amount of damage to the character performing the action every time they happen.) By contrast, damage dealt by an attack isn't always the exact value associated with the attack in the game's code; it can be multiplied or otherwise modified by things such as [[stale-move negation]], a [[Super Mushroom]], a [[Poison Mushroom]], [[Pikmin|Pikmin coloration]], [[Deep Breathing]], [[Monado Arts]], [[equipment]]... I could go on and on. TL;DR: Recoil damage is static; a given action dealing recoil damage always deals the same amount of recoil damage. Damage taken from an attack is fluid; while every attack has a set amount of damage written into the code, the actual damage dealt can be changed by any of a wide variety of multipliers. If Ridley always takes the same amount of damage from having his Plasma Breath interrupted (on top of the damage dealt by the interruption), then it's possibly recoil damage, since recoil damage is always consistent. If Ridley takes a variable amount of damage from having his Plasma Breath interrupted (on top of the damage dealt by the interruption), then it's most likely not recoil damage (and may instead be a multiplier to the damage of the attack that interrupts Ridley).
:::::::*When Ridley has his Plasma Breath charge interrupted, does he go through a special animation, or does he just generically flinch? Recoil damage never causes flinching; the character continues on with the animation associated with the action that caused the recoil damage. A character taking an attack usually flinches or sustains knockback, unless they have sufficient [[armor]] or [[knockback resistance]] to ignore the hit they just took and continue their current action, or the attack specifically does not cause flinching (such as Fox's [[Blaster (Fox)|Blaster]]). What I'm getting at is that if Ridley just goes into the usual flinch/tumbling/reeling/crumpling animation from taking a hit that interrupts his Plasma Breath charging, the additional damage from the interruption might not be recoil damage. If Ridley goes into a unique animation specifically for having the Plasma Breath charge interrupted, then the additional damage might be recoil damage.
:::::::Hopefully those observations will help you guys reach a consensus. --[[User:Luigifan18|Luigifan18]] ([[User talk:Luigifan18|talk]]) 16:04, 28 August 2018 (EDT)

Clearly the consensus here is "we don't know for sure yet". Only once the game is out will be know for certain whether this is "takes extra damage from the attack" or "takes recoil damage in addition to being hit". Therefore, I will remove the item from this page for now. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:45, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
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 Clearly the consensus here is "we don't know for sure yet". Only once the game is out will be know for certain whether this is "takes extra damage from the attack" or "takes recoil damage in addition to being hit". Therefore, I will remove the item from this page for now. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brass 19:45, 28 August 2018 (EDT)
-== Alolan Whip ==
-Does {{SSBU|Incineroar}}'s [[side special]], [[Alolan Whip]] count as recoil when it fails? [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 17:03, 4 January 2019 (EST)
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