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| :It depends on where they got the source from. Knowing how strict Bulbapedia is I'm sure they are trustable, though unless we know for sure it's still speculation. Anyway after finding out why I should never play SMK at 3am I'd say just keep it indeterminate unless we (or they) have proof. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:7pt"><font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font></span>]]'''</span> 09:51, May 12, 2020 (EDT) | | :It depends on where they got the source from. Knowing how strict Bulbapedia is I'm sure they are trustable, though unless we know for sure it's still speculation. Anyway after finding out why I should never play SMK at 3am I'd say just keep it indeterminate unless we (or they) have proof. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:7pt"><font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font></span>]]'''</span> 09:51, May 12, 2020 (EDT) |
| ::I checked the page histories of the list and single Pokemon on Bulbapedia and the information was usually added with no summary or no one changing it afterwards. And Serebii also has a list which claims Alolan Raichu uses Volt Tackle where Bulbapedia says Surge Surfer, Vulpix was "fire ball" vs Ember, Alolan Vulpix was Icy Wind vs Frost Breath. I figured the Pokemon fans would have an idea but I'm not sure what to trust in this case. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:14, May 12, 2020 (EDT) | | ::I checked the page histories of the list and single Pokemon on Bulbapedia and the information was usually added with no summary or no one changing it afterwards. And Serebii also has a list which claims Alolan Raichu uses Volt Tackle where Bulbapedia says Surge Surfer, Vulpix was "fire ball" vs Ember, Alolan Vulpix was Icy Wind vs Frost Breath. I figured the Pokemon fans would have an idea but I'm not sure what to trust in this case. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:14, May 12, 2020 (EDT) |
| :::Most of them are indeed somewhat ambiguous, although at least a couple of them (like Let's Snuggle Forever) are about as obvious as obvious as you can get. Unfortunately no matter how blatantly obvious a match a Pokémon's move may be (''cough cough'' Mimikyu ''cough cough''), it's difficult to argue that they should be added with the speculation policy being the way it currently is... ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 10:19, May 12, 2020 (EDT)
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| I just checked, and Marshadow uses the move Spectral Thief. I think we should put information like this on the page to get the section out of the incomplete tag. Not sure about everyone else though. [[User:JustSomeCloudMain|JustSomeCloudMain]] ([[User talk:JustSomeCloudMain|talk]]) 23:23, May 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Where did you find that information? Also, the page isn't tagged as incomplete due to the names, it is tagged because the damage values are either missing or incorrect. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 23:42, May 30, 2020 (EDT)
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| :Ok, on here Marshadow is "indeterminate" but on [[Marshadow]] it is Spectral Thief, [[Togedemaru]] Zing Zap, [[Mimikyu]] Let's Snuggle Forever, [[Tapu Koko]] Electric Surge. At least [[Vulpix#Alolan Vulpix|Alolan Vulpix]] says "resembles" Frost Breath. And on some of them the 'Origin' section say "resembles" but in 'As a Poké Ball Pokemon' it doesn't. With Mimikyu it seems that it was added and went unnoticed, but Marshadow has had Spectral thief listed since August, 2018. Do the Pokémon pages need to be scrubbed through or does something else need to happen? --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 00:32, May 31, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::I really doubt Tapu Koko is "using" Electric Surge, because Electric Surge is an ability and not a move to begin with, and it's an ability that automatically summons a field effect (Electric Terrain) that does no damage. Granted, ''Smash'' has taken greater creative liberties with Pokémon moves before, such as [[Rest]], but in this case it is not officially stated, and I personally think it resembles Discharge more, for example. Unless it is officially confirmed by in-game text, one of the official sites, or at least one of Sakurai's Miiverse or Twitter posts, I would refrain from claiming any of these moves as official, although I guess we can skirt around the "no speculation" rule by using phrases such as "the attack resembles the move X from the Pokémon series" for the most blatant cases. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 10:55, May 31, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::Unfortunately external information about ''Ultimate'' is a lot more restricted, there is no real developer blog or Miiverse posts to work with. Pages like the [https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/blog/ Super Smash Blog] just parrot what is already mentioned in-game.
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| :::While we're on the topic, where did Solgaleo's and Lunala's moves come from? I can't find any in-game mention of Sunsteel Strike or Moongeist Beam. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 11:35, May 31, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::While moves names aren't mentioned, in-game text (in Training Mode) mentions that they transform into their Radiant Sun/Full Moon form before attacking. Since in Pokémon games they only transform in these forms as an aesthetic animation before using Sunsteel Strike/Moongeist Beam, it might be good enough to confirm that those are the attacks used without invoking the "no speculation" rule. Tapu Koko's flavor descriptions also says that it uses an "electric field", which is similar to Electric Terrain/Electric Surge, but still not conclusive enough. I gained no other useful insight by looking at Training Mode. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 15:55, May 31, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::::Sorry for the late response, but maybe internal data (such as animations) could give us conclusive evidence for which moves they are? [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 18:26, July 14, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::::::That's possible if someone can get their hands on them. But if they follow the same naming as the [https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Items attack scripts] we'll probably only get "togedemaru_shot.anim" or something like that. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 19:32, July 14, 2020 (EDT)
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| For older games we've gotten compilation lists like [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/0111/index.html this] which list off the moves used, but unfortunately no such listing exists for Ultimate that I'm aware of. Unless it's in name-dropped in the [[tips]] or otherwise unambiguously clear, we shouldn't be guessing. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 19:36, July 14, 2020 (EDT)
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| Seeing as we allowed fighter move names from the Kadokawa guide, it seems reasonable that they be allowed here too. I've gotten my hands on it and here are the move names for the new Pokémon ([https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/folders/18J6HB4j8xMqJnEVkSlLrBZMMBNFAxbxV got images here to verify]):
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| *Alolan Raichu: サーフテール (Surge Surfer)
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| *Vulpix: ひのこ (Ember)
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| *Alolan Vulpix: こなゆき (Powder Snow)
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| *Bewear: ぶんまわす (Brutal Swing)
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| *Alolan Exeggutor: とおせんぼう (Block)
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| *Pyukumuku: とびだすなかみ (Innards Out), 投げる (item throw, not a move but listed, still uses Innards Out)
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| *Togedemaru: スパーク (Spark)
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| *Mimikyu: ばけのかわ (Disguise) (not Let's Snuggle Forever like everyone thinks)
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| *Tapu Koko: エレキフィールド (Electric Terrain), ほうでん (Discharge)
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| *Marshadow: シャドースチール (Spectral Thief)
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| --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 14:55, September 4, 2021 (EDT)
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| :Does anyone have a source on Togepi's and Clefairy's moves? The [https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/flash/0111/index.html Melee site] and the Kadokawa guide don't specify a move (other than Metronome), merely describing the results. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 11:56, September 5, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::Worth noting: some of those (Pyukumuku and Mimikyu) are actually abilities, not moves. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 14:58, September 5, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::Neither is Munchlax's Pickup. Can rename "move" to "action" on the tables if necessary. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 15:24, September 5, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::::Given that Mimikyu deals damage, it obviously isn't just using its ability, which is defensive, and must be attacking. Innards out at least deals damage, and while it works differently to in the games, it at least retains a counter-like usage, so could conceivably be what Pyukumuku is using. I would not recommend listing disguise as its move, as this implies it is how it attacks. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 20:47, September 5, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::::To play Devil's Advocate, ''Smash'' takes very liberal interpretations of ''Pokémon'' canon. False Swipe cannot KO, but [[Weavile]] can KO with it in ''Brawl''. Fly is an attacking move, and yet [[Mew]] will never deal damage with it in ''Smash''. Reflect should only increase physical defense, but [[Gardevoir]] uses it to reflect projectiles (even ones that would be "special moves" instead of physical). The list goes on. So Mimikyu dealing damage with a defensive ability is hardly breaking news. --[[User:PeabodySam|PeabodySam]] ([[User talk:PeabodySam|talk]]) 22:47, September 5, 2021 (EDT)
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| <small>(Reset indent) </small>That may be true, but consider how Disguise works as an ability: it lets Mimikyu take one hit with no damage, before the fake Pikachu cover slumps over. That has no connection whatsoever to Mimikyu's attack in Smash, which is very clearly based on Let's Snuggle Forever. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:28, September 6, 2021 (EDT)
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| (@PeabodySam) Those examples aren't the best in terms of redeeming Mimikyu, all of them are still attacks in the home series while Disguise is an ability. False swipe is still a damaging swipe attack like it is in Smash, only with the effect of not KOing the opponent. Fly may be based more on its out-of-battle effect of flying to another location. Reflect is still defensive, even if it works differently. Disguise has zero connection to the attack Mimikyu is using: it's defensive, it's an ability, nor does it at the very least resemble the attack its using in Smash, which clearly has a much stronger resemblence Let's Snuggle Forever. [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omega Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toad Warrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(I'm the best!)</font>]]''' 04:30, September 6, 2021 (EDT)
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| :I don't disagree that it's much more obviously Let's Snuggle Forever than Disguise; this is just me playing Devil's Advocate for the sake of argument and making sure everything is carefully considered. And there are instances where a Pokémon is clearly using one move but it's identified as something different in ''Smash''. Sure, one can make the argument that [[Bellossom]] putting opponents to sleep makes them "easier to hit" like Sweet Scent, but it's so much more obvious to say it's clearly Sleep Powder... and yet, because the official sources state it's Sweet Scent, that's what SmashWiki goes with. While it's true that False Swipe is still an attack and Reflect is still defensive, [[Gulpin]] uses Swallow as an attack in ''Smash'', which runs totally counter to its function as a passive non-damaging healing move in ''Pokémon''. --[[User:PeabodySam|PeabodySam]] ([[User talk:PeabodySam|talk]]) 10:04, September 6, 2021 (EDT)
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| ::I also find it bizarre that Mimikyu isn't using Let's Snuggle Forever despite its usage of Disguise in ''Smash'' being so similar to it. If I had to speculate, the developers did this because they wanted to evoke the horror of Mimikyu's true form and didn't think the cartoonish effects and Fairy typing of Let's Snuggle Forever were appropriate and/or didn't want a Pokémon to use a Z-Move without a Z-Crystal, Z-Ring, and trainer ([[Max Malicious Moonsault|or just a Smash Ball]]), and chose to weaponize its ability because no moves in its repertoire were visually similar to Let's Snuggle Forever. [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 14:57, September 6, 2021 (EDT)
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| :::Mimikyu's attack in ''Smash'' is a lot more "ghostly" than Let's Snuggle Together or Play Rough in ''Pokémon''. A lot of its Dex entries talk about people being harmed (either directly or indirectly) by merely looking under the cloth, I don't think it necessarily needs to use a move for that (to me its the same as not needing to know Bite/Swallow or Fly to eat or fly). I do agree that it probably isn't attacking with Disguise, but I don't think it needs to use a move to attack. I did skim through the rest of the guidebook and there aren't any other sections that would go more in depth to possibly eke out a better answer. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:29, September 6, 2021 (EDT)
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| == Clefairy and Togepi ==
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| Does anyone know the source for the moves Metronome can use? Everywhere I go I only see them listed as what they do, that is "places flower on their head", "buries them", "creates small explosions", etc. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 05:26, July 17, 2022 (EDT)
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