View source for Talk:Mario (SSBB)/Neutral attack/Hit 1/Archive 1

== Merge ==

Discuss.

I '''oppose''' because they are all attacks in their own right with their own hitbox and attack information. Putting them together could be quite confusing. [[User:Scr7|<font style="color:#0000FF">S</font><font style="color:#7F7FFF">c</font><font style="color:#00FFFF">r</font>]][[User talk:Scr7|<font style="color:#FF7F00">7</font>]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] 18:58, 3 August 2013 (EDT)
:You do know that the attacks are just going to be in separate sections so the hitboxes and attack info will still be somewhat separate. <span style="font-family:RAGE ITALIC">[[User:Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]] [[User talk:Terrible|<span style="color:green">is</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]]</span> 19:08, 3 August 2013 (EDT)
::Yes I do know that but I don't think it would look too good. [[User:Scr7|<font style="color:#0000FF">S</font>]][[User talk:Scr7|<font style="color:#7F7FFF">c</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Scr7|<font style="color:#00FFFF">r</font>]][[Special:Editcount/Scr7|<font style="color:#FF7F00">7</font>]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:PrefixIndex/User:Scr7]] 08:01, 16 August 2013 (EDT)
::Bump. [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 10:00, 14 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Bump x2. [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 12:51, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
'''Oppose''' Per Scr7. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">Do</font>]][[User talk:Dots|<font color="blue">t</font><font color="purple">s</font>]] [[File:MewtwoMS.png]] The Gangnum Style 12:56, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
<br>'''Support''' Is there really much you can say about the first hit of the neutral attack when combining them would describe the same thing, as well as describing the other two hits as well? Just list the frame data separately, saying "Hit 1:, Hit 2", etc. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 13:01, 21 August 2013 (EDT)

'''Oppose''' Even if these are three slaps in a combo separated, they still have enough hitbox and such info to make a combined page convoluted and messy. [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 13:04, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:Agreed - yes, it would look messy and cramped. Oh and doing this for neutral attack combos like Pit's would look even worse. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 13:07, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:How will it look convoluted and messy? Just put everything in separate sections. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 13:08, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::We could do that but like I said, it would still entail people having to separate some hitbox information from other hitbox info. If that makes sense. [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 13:09, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::If they're in separate sections, I don't see how people could get confused over it. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 13:13, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::Because they're cramped together, so the page can look fucking weird. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 13:35, 21 August 2013 (EDT)

'''Support.''' There is absolutely no reason for multiple hits of a neutral attack to have separate pages from one another. The resulting combined page would hardly be difficult to navigate. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 13:40, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:They're different attacks. Do I really need to explain more? [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 13:51, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:Also, by this logic, cloned moves should be merged. Mario's 2nd and 3rd neutral attacks are more different than a cloned move. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 13:58, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::They're separate hits of the same attack more than they are distinct attacks. They don't deserve separate articles by any stretch of the imagination. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:06, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Just because they're all part of the neutral attack doesn't mean they should be merged. They're different attacks with their own uses and properties. This is enough for them to have their own articles. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 14:27, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::Why are they different attacks if you press the same button to perform it and they're collectively referred to as "neutral attack"? And the separate hits could easily be combined, there isn't any difference in usage that couldn't be put on one page. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 14:57, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::Cardinal's got it exactly right. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:01, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::No he hasn't. They aren't the same fucking attack, is the third hit of Mario's neutral attack the same as the first and second? Lolno. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 15:12, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::And they aren't just all referred to as "neutral attack". They're referred to differently, as "neutral attack 1", "neutral attack 2", "neutral attack infinite", and so on. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 15:14, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::What Scr7 is trying to say: While they are all seperate "parts" of the Neutral attack, they are triggered separately, physically different, and functionally different and thus are seperate attacks and merit different articles. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 15:17, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::Thank you. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 15:26, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::Separate hits of the same attack count as parts of the same attack and should be treated as such. The same thing applies for this as it would for special moves like Dancing Blade; yes, there are different parts to the attack, but they certainly are not so individually important that they merit individual articles. They can all be easily contained on a single page. Essentially, if attack B can only be executed as a continuing part of attack A, there's no reason to give them separate pages. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 15:37, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::::''Seperate hits of the same attack''
::::::::::They do count as different attacks, the term "neutral attack" itself doesn't count as an attack when you have the names like "neutral attack 1".

::::::::::''The same thing applies for this as it would for special moves like Dancing Blade; yes, there are different parts to the attack, but they certainly are not so individually important that they merit individual articles''
::::::::::Is Dancing Blade a neutral attack? No. All of its hits are actually supposed to be just variations of each other. Hits of a neutral attack are always different in one way or another, even with two attacks that look similar (like the first and second hits of Mario's neutral attack - they have different uses).
::::::::::[[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 15:55, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::::How are the separate hits of Mario's neutral attack so different in technical data and functioning that they need their own separate articles that couldn't fit on one page? [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 15:41, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::::::Because they're different attacks with different uses, dumbass. The first and second hits appear to be very similar. However they have different uses. The first hit is useful for jab locking while the second is useful for jab cancels. The former cannot jab cancel reliably and the latter cannot jab lock at all. That's just an example. And they can certainly have different frame data - they don't exactly have the same hitbox, do they? [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 15:55, 21 August 2013 (EDT)

'''Support''' All three of the hitbox pages are too small to be separate articles. <span style="font-family:RAGE ITALIC">[[User:Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]] [[User talk:Terrible|<span style="color:green">is</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]]</span> 13:45, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:No. None of these articles are stubs, they all have enough data to be seperate articles. A lot of moveset subpages on more minor/less notable moves are small like that anyway. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 13:51, 21 August 2013 (EDT)

While I see the benefit of having them on the same page, my brain is not liking how they'll look one one page. The information is easiest viewed on multiple pages. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 14:19, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:Exactly. It would look like a clusterfuck. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 14:27, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::Really, what's wrong with having different sections? I don't understand. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 14:57, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::Because it would look cramped and annoying to view. I've said this before. [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 15:12, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::It would not look cramped and annoying to view, all you are doing is just listing the technical data right underneath each other in sections, how would that look "cramped" and annoying to view? It would also be annoying if they were all separate because you'd have to go to another article just to find out complete information about the attack. Describing the function of one hit without describing the function of the entire sequence of hits is improper. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 15:41, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
::::::''It would also be annoying if they were all separate because you'd have to go to another article just to find out complete information about the attack.''
::::::And they're different attacks! How many times have I said and explained this?

::::::''Describing the function of one hit without describing the function of the entire sequence of hits is improper.''
::::::If it really pisses you off that much, why don't you just put them in different tabs -_- [[User:Scr7|{{Color|#0000FF"|S}}{{Color|#7F7FFF|c}}{{Color|#00FFFF|r}}]][[User talk:Scr7|{{Color|#FF7F00|7}}]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] [[Special:Editcount/Scr7|{{Color|#FF0000|<nowiki>=D</nowiki>}}]] 16:02, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::Then where do you put "This neutral attack combo is good at doing damage up close"? On Hit 3? No, because it's relevant to the entire combo. Putting the descriptions on the same page will make it flow better, so you can say "The first hit can jab lock, the second hit can jab cancel, and the combo is good for damage up close". Explain why you think it would be better if they were on separate pages, because they are part of the same attack sequence and are fully relevant to each other. If you don't like me calling the sequence an "attack", then I'll call it an "attack sequence" instead. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 16:38, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::::Why waste the time of having 3 different tabs and having to go to one then the other when you can just merge them and just scroll down? Trust me, it doesn't look that sloppy. <span style="font-family:RAGE ITALIC">[[User:Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]] [[User talk:Terrible|<span style="color:green">is</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]]</span> 16:43, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
:::::I tested out how the page would look like with the three hitbox pages combined and it didn't look very cramped or annoying. It looked a little cramped, but I'm pretty sure that's just my phone, and in some ways, it actually looked a little better than them separate. <span style="font-family:RAGE ITALIC">[[User:Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]] [[User talk:Terrible|<span style="color:green">is</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Terrible|<span style="color:grey">Terrible</span>]]</span> 15:54, 21 August 2013 (EDT)
'''Oppose'''. I look at what a merged version of this page would appear to look like, and I have to say, it looks very sloppy and unprofessional. The frequent presentations of seperate overviews and post-hit data all for each individual attack in sucession make for, how you say, a vicious clusterfuck. Perhaps if all the specifics to each attack was removed, it would be possible.....but that is not an option for a wiki such as ours. Fusing all the data for the entire combo would look even worse, all bundled together with a disorianted array of hitboxes and numbers. It may not be a perfect solution, but merging it like this is clearly not the way to go.<span style="font-family:Sketch1">[[User:MegiBeelzebub|<span style="color:green">Megi</span>]][[User talk:MegiBeelzebub|<span style="color:black">Beelzebub</span>]]</span> [[File:MegiBeelzebub.png|19px]] 15:58, 21 August 2013 (EDT)