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| ::::So then should we change it back or seek other solutions, because the cape just doesn't seem to be as effective as it was before in stalling, edge-guarding (aside from making it difficult for the opponent to grab the edge, as they cannot from behind), and edgehogging. Given, this is true of the melee version of Mario, but the article does not successfully infer that these nerfs are present.[[Special:Contributions/108.0.47.234|108.0.47.234]] 19:22, 15 December 2013 (EST) | | ::::So then should we change it back or seek other solutions, because the cape just doesn't seem to be as effective as it was before in stalling, edge-guarding (aside from making it difficult for the opponent to grab the edge, as they cannot from behind), and edgehogging. Given, this is true of the melee version of Mario, but the article does not successfully infer that these nerfs are present.[[Special:Contributions/108.0.47.234|108.0.47.234]] 19:22, 15 December 2013 (EST) |
| :::::Come on guys do I really have to respond to my own posts to keep this conversation alive, because the problem has not been resolved yet. [[Special:Contributions/71.189.12.47|71.189.12.47]] 00:06, 17 December 2013 (EST) | | :::::Come on guys do I really have to respond to my own posts to keep this conversation alive, because the problem has not been resolved yet. [[Special:Contributions/71.189.12.47|71.189.12.47]] 00:06, 17 December 2013 (EST) |
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| To get back to this, I agree these sections should be "changes from Brawl", since PM is after all a mod of Brawl and not Melee, and it can allow for more detailed and accurate information than just assuming the Melee character to be the base. If no can put up a good objection to this, we should start applying this change to these sections across the PM page. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 03:31, 18 December 2013 (EST)
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| :I don't directly oppose this, but would this change entail, listing all the changes brawl made to the Melee veterans, and how PM fixed them? Not that I'd be unwilling to do that, but I would like to compile a list ASAP if this is true.--<span style="background-color:#6d84e1;border:3px solid silver">[[User:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:silver">'''Brian'''</span>]]<sup>[[User talk:1337 B33FC4K3|<span style="color:black">Don't try me!</span>]]</sup>[[File:Falco.gif|link=|27px]]</span> 08:02, 18 December 2013 (EST)
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| ::I think it would be reasonable to have a sublist of "the following moves and attributes were altered to be identical to their Melee versions". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 08:21, 18 December 2013 (EST)
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| :::Maybe we could make an overall changes section or a techniques showing added techniques, such as Lucario's aura mechanics (kind of), lost techniques, such as Mario's cape glide, or maintained ones such as Pikachu's QAC. This could pick out the important changes or attributes of the character in general. [[Special:Contributions/173.58.245.35|173.58.245.35]] 01:27, 19 December 2013 (EST)
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| ::::Guys the least you can do is actually respond to my questions. [[Special:Contributions/98.112.14.35|98.112.14.35]] 13:43, 21 December 2013 (EST)
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| :What is the decision? Should we consider my techniques list idea?[[Special:Contributions/108.0.47.229|108.0.47.229]] 03:08, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| ::I did a standard Brawl to PM changelist on {{PM|Ganondorf}}'s page, and I don't see why we have to do anything different than that. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 08:48, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| :::It is probably a good idea to change this to changes from brawl to project m with a bullet point signifying what was reverted to project m and with indented bullet points underneath it elaborating upon those changes, but what do you think of the idea of having a given, lost, and retained techniques section for each character? [[Special:Contributions/108.0.47.229|108.0.47.229]] 14:38, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| ::::Lost/gained "techniques" is easily covered in the changes, you don't need to make a specific section for them. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:53, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| :::::But what of the techniques belonging to the character in other games that have been lost as in this case and what of the techniques the subject has maintained in the transfer, but that many would miss? I believe that such a section would allow for quick summarization of the character in project m independent of the original character pages. As it is, the "attributes" section is really just a "general mod differences" section, it requires you to frequently switch between the original character's page and this page to discern what is different. Many people have probably downloaded the mod onto brawl without ever having played melee, because they hear that it creates "more intense play", and some may have refused to buy brawl up until recently in protest of its more casual play, yet heard of this mod, quickly bought the game, downloaded the mod and exclusively play on it, without ever seeing how the game is normally. In this way the "attributes" section is way too dependent upon other pages. The techniques section would a quick fix, if not a beginning to an expansion of the pages to describe more fully how each project m character is. [[Special:Contributions/108.0.47.229|108.0.47.229]] 20:38, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| ::::::The problem here is that effectively no editor has realized that these pages need explanatory paragraphs in the attributes section, just like every other character page. The page code even says "<code><!--describe attributes here--></code>", yet no one has done so. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bomb 21:11, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| :::::::I can see why, with characters being changed semi-regularly the paragraphs might become outdated before they are even finished. It should be added, but I am not giving up on the idea of a techniques section just yet. As I feel that it would also help with summarizing the character.[[Special:Contributions/108.0.47.229|108.0.47.229]] 21:34, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| ::::::::"''But what of the techniques belonging to the character in other games that have been lost as in this case''"
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| ::::::::"'''Lost'''/gained "techniques" is easily covered in the changes, you don't need to make a specific section for them."
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| ::::::::In the Ganon page for example, it is explicitly mentioned in the changes that Flipman and FoG no longer exist, you don't need anymore detail than that.
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| ::::::::"''and what of the techniques the subject has maintained in the transfer, but that many would miss?''"
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| ::::::::Except they wouldn't be "missed"? If the "technique" is as is in vBrawl, you assume it's still there if it's not explicitly mentioned as removed, just like any other thing. And if the "technique" is valuable to them, it's explicitly mentioned and how it's used in the Attributes section.
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| ::::::::"''I believe that such a section would allow for quick summarization of the character in project m independent of the original character pages.''"
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| ::::::::Covered in "Attributes" as Toomai pointed out, a "techniques" section isn't necessary.
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| ::::::::"''it requires you to frequently switch between the original character's page and this page to discern what is different.''"
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| ::::::::The Ganon page explicitly states what is different from Brawl Ganon (and by extension Melee Ganon). You don't need a "techniques" section for that.
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| ::::::::"''Many people have probably downloaded the mod onto brawl without ever having played melee, because they hear that it creates "more intense play"''"
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| ::::::::Which is why "changes from Brawl to PM" is better than "changes from Melee to PM", that's not a reason for a "techniques" section. Even then, anyone looking up information about PM should be looking up information about Melee anyway, since PM is just somewhat patched Melee built off of Brawl.
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| ::::::::"''and some may have refused to buy brawl up until recently in protest of its more casual play, yet heard of this mod, quickly bought the game, downloaded the mod and exclusively play on it, without ever seeing how the game is normally.''"
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| ::::::::Except actual cases of this, if it actually happens, is such a miniscule minority that it is not worth catering to. Project M is not so big that it actually gets people who never touched Smash to suddenly go out and buy Brawl, and then hack it without ever touching the game (if they even learn about the mod in the first place). Additionally, Project M ''is still a mod, not it's own game'', it's expected you know the actual game before jumping into the mods.
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| ::::::::"''In this way the "attributes" section is way too dependent upon other pages.''"
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| ::::::::'''You should absolutely be reading up on the Melee/Brawl character pages to begin with'''. Project M is ''still a mod'' of the latter heavily based on the former, you should absolutely not be playing it with zero knowledge of these games and not attempting to learn anything about them. You are doing yourself a huge disservice if you're actually some Smash newb who jumped headfirst into PM without ever touching or learning about the Smash games (though as I pointed out earlier, such a player is extremely rare, if they actually exist). The changes section on Ganon's page explicitly state the differences between him and Melee/Brawl Ganon, it doesn't need to go into excruciating detail about how Melee/Brawl Ganon were, when ''detailed articles on them exist on the Wiki'' (and in case you didn't know, pages on the Wiki ''are dependent on each other'', hence all the links and being directed to other articles).
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| ::::::::As for information about how PM Ganon specifically fares, that is what the to be later filled "Attributes" section will cover, as well as the moveset table on his article. A "techniques" section isn't at all necessary for this, nor is specific information about how Melee/Brawl Ganon were just so those "who never touched a Smash game" don't have to click a couple of extra links.
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| ::::::::"''I can see why, with characters being changed semi-regularly the paragraphs might become outdated before they are even finished.''"
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| ::::::::Except they aren't, when it takes the PM team like six months to a whole year just to get one version out, and at this point, it's just going to be minor changes and maybe another "clone engine" character or two. This whole point is irrelevant.
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| ::::::::"''It should be added, but I am not giving up on the idea of a techniques section just yet. As I feel that it would also help with summarizing the character.''"
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| ::::::::Like what exactly are you even arguing for anymore. You say "we should cover techniques that were lost/gained", which is completely covered in the changes section. You say "we should summarise the PM characters", which is ''exactly what the Attributes section is for''. You say "these pages are too dependent on others and people who play PM without having played Smash won't understand", when if such people actually exist ''they should be reading the Melee/Brawl character articles and other stuff on the Wiki''. And all you have to keep suggesting is some vague "techniques" section that sounds like some poor conglomeration of the Attributes and Changes sections. You're honestly not suggesting anything helpful here, and outside people writing the Changes section from a pure Melee perspective, there is no real problem with these pages other than the fact they're still under construction (in which case, add the missing information, instead of arguing for some excessive unnecessary section). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:21, 24 December 2013 (EST)
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| :::::::::I guess we might continue this discussion later. I just feel that these pages should be approached in a similar way to the game pages, but this is a mod page and not really a game page so we're kind of breaking new ground and there is a question on how dependent these pages should be on the main game pages. I just thought and still think that a techniques section would summarize the character nicely, but I see your point as the character pages would generally be looked at first, however I believe that it might make it easier for the reader, but whatever. Until later, Merry Christmas, may the Lord bless ya'. [[Special:Contributions/108.0.47.229|108.0.47.229]] 00:37, 25 December 2013 (EST)
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| == Wario Alt Gone? ==
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| In Brawl, Mario had an alt that gave him Wario colors. Why is this alt missing in Project M? --[[User:MegaSuperab|MegaSuperab]] ([[User talk:MegaSuperab|talk]]) 19:54, 8 September 2016 (EDT)
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| :[[Mario (PM)#Trivia]] [[File:AidanzapunkSig1.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Dragon Warrior'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSig2.png|20px]] 19:56, 8 September 2016 (EDT)
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| == Images for Z-Secret and R-Secret Costumes ==
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| Should we add images for Z-Secret and R-Secret Costumes? Some people viewing the character articles for Project M want to see what they look like. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:SuperPiranha85|SuperPiranha85]] ([[User talk:SuperPiranha85|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/SuperPiranha85|contribs]]) 15:57, April 22, 2024 (EDT)</small>
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| :I don't see any issue with that. But the files aren't included in the "modders pack" from the website, so you'll need to get them from somewhere else. And don't forget to sign your posts with 4 tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:34, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| How about costumes from Project+ Tournament Addition? —-[[User:SuperPiranha85|Breaking News: Piranha Plant Eats Mario]]. [[User talk:SuperPiranha85|Talk to Mario’s murderer about this breaking headline]]. 16:58, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :Nothing immediately useful there. One was flagged as malware and the other had a .raw file which would probably be a patcher. So you could boot up the mod and dump the files, but you'd probably just get the renders that are cropped. Or find somewhere/someone else that has the renders. I won't be doing either as I have other projects to work on. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:18, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| ::Also did you read these headlines? —-[[User:SuperPiranha85|Breaking News: Piranha Plant Eats Mario]]. [[User talk:SuperPiranha85|Talk to Mario’s murderer about this breaking headline]]. 17:31, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| :::That isn't [[SmashWiki:Talk_pages#Irrelevance|related to the topic]]. Also your signature should make it [[SmashWiki:Sign_your_comments#Important_considerations|clear who you are]]. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:38, April 22, 2024 (EDT)
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| == Images for Secret Costumes ==
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| I'm just curious: where did the images for the secret costumes come from? [[User:SuperPiranha85/sig]] July 4, 2024 9:35 EST
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