Editing Talk:Luigi (SSBU)

==Should the Luigi Cyclone bugfix be treated as both a bugfix and a nerf==

I'm given to understand that some form of a discussion on the topic occurred on the discord server, but this discussion was not properly documented, was likely to be pretty informal, and many SmashWiki users were unable to participate for one reason or another, which is why I think a proper consensus-style discussion on the matter should occur here.

As for my stance, I believe that we should list as a subpoint that this bugfix did hinder the utility of the move somewhat, and these are my key points as to why we should do so:

*All attacks, Luigi Cyclone included, are objectively more useful when the user is invincible for the duration of the move.
*The technique, while not exactly easy, was not so difficult as to prevent it from feasibly being used at the tournament level.
*There aren't a large number of examples of the technique being performed in a beneficial manner, however this is largely due to its short lifespan, as it did not take long for Nintendo to remove it once it was discovered, and had it remained players would have gotten better at performing it
*Bugfixes are not exclusively neutral and thus should not be treated as such. Some bugs can be beneficial or detrimental to fighters as well as neutral.
*A nerf is a nerf, regardless of the opinions of some about how significant a nerf it was.

Regarding whether the same treatment should be given to other bugfixes, a case by case basis is of course required. If a bug has both positive and negative effects, and it is difficult to determine whether it was beneficial or detrimental overall then there is no sense in listing it as a buff or a nerf, however this is clearly not the case here.

That's my 2 cents on the matter. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:29, November 19, 2019 (EST)

:'''Support.''' There is no legitimate reason not to have this listed as a nerf. We list other fighter bugfixes as nerfs, for example Ness' [[Yo-yo glitch]] that was prevalent in Melee and fixed in Brawl. This is a similar case, and while some might consider this unimportant, the fact remains: it is still a nerf. As such, I think it should be added back onto the page for all of the reasons Alex and I previously listed. '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 11:44, November 20, 2019 (EST)
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 :'''Support.''' There is no legitimate reason not to have this listed as a nerf. We list other fighter bugfixes as nerfs, for example Ness' [[Yo-yo glitch]] that was prevalent in Melee and fixed in Brawl. This is a similar case, and while some might consider this unimportant, the fact remains: it is still a nerf. As such, I think it should be added back onto the page for all of the reasons Alex and I previously listed. '''Your Senpai,''' [[User:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: red;">'''Iron'''</span>]] [[User talk:Iron Warrior|<span style="color: cyan;">'''Warrior'''</span>]] 11:44, November 20, 2019 (EST)
-Bumping this... ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 18:00, December 1, 2019 (EST)
-:Bump again... ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 12:32, December 10, 2019 (EST)
-::'''Strong oppose''' No no no no a million times no. This is simply a bug fix. Super Cyclone was not useful in any meaningful way. It was a situational technique that worked once at best. While the move can't be punished with it, it's still slow, doesn't go anywhere and gives Luigi no advantage due to its extremely long animation (FAF 86). it could only be done on platforms, limiting where you used it, as well as on the ledge. Cyclone sends up and doesn't rise much anymore, making it much less useful than literally every other tool Luigi has on the ledge. The move can maybe work once, but once the opponent knows you go for it, they're not gonna get hit by it again and you'll lose stage control.
-::The loss of z-drop during hitstun isn't listed as a nerf for characters with items. That's a much more impactful bug fix than Super Cyclone. It is not a nerf, it's a bug fix. The invincibility wasn't cleared on the same frame aerial and grounded due to them not having the same invincibility frames (1-7 vs 4-8). This bug didn't impact Luigi's metagame in the slightest.  [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 17:24, January 4, 2020 (EST)
-:::It seems as though your main argument here is that the technique's usefulness was fairly minor. This is not really all that relevant, as [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/350063361901199361/663146643746717703/Screenshot_2020-01-04_at_22.27.15.png we list changes as buffs and nerfs even when they're very minor]. As for saying it's "not useful in any meaningful way", that is simply incorrect. It may not be hugely useful, but it is useful, if nothing else for a very long lagless dodge at the very least, and arguably for more as well. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:30, January 4, 2020 (EST)
-::::If you use Super Cyclone, your opponent can take control of the stage, charge whatever charge move they have and just wait for the move to end. Luigi's game plan is to hit you with a combo starter to lead into high damage. Cyclone doesn't combo into anything and does nothing good for Luigi in the few applications Super Cyclone could be used. It's just not a big enough deal for me to call a nerf. It has a designation : Bug Fix. They fixed a bug that didn't do anything concrete for Luigi in the first place. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 22:19, January 4, 2020 (EST)
-:::::Listen, I'm aware that the bug's utility wasn't huge or anything, although I think you're underselling it a bit too, but what sets this apart from most bugfixes is that they are usually fairly neutral, mostly because if the bug is accidentally triggered it can be a detriment, but accidentally triggering invincibility to last for the entire move, even if not always beneficial, will never harm you, so this bugfix can only be seen as a nerf, even if it's not a particularly large one. To suggest that stating this bugfix "slightly hinders Luigi Cyclone's utility" is misinformation as you keep claiming is pretty dishonest, as nothing about this suggests that it was a major technique. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 07:38, January 5, 2020 (EST)
-== Down throw buff ==
-I'm trying to understand why Luigi’s down throw has less endlag from ''Smash 4''. It says it no longer applies 6 frames of hitlag to the opponent and this reduces the duration by 5 frames. Sadly I'm not too knowledgeable on how hitlag affects moves. Don't both characters suffer hitlag? I'm pretty confused. [[User:SacredFire37|SacredFire37]] ([[User talk:SacredFire37|talk]]) 06:47, April 17, 2021 (EDT)
-:For throws, similarly to with projectiles, only the thrown character experiences hitlag, which is why hitlag is normally disabled. In Smash 4, the opponent was released on frame 18, but knockback wouldn't begin until frame 24, making this the effective throw frame. In Ultimate, the hitlag was removed, but the opponent is now released on frame 29, 5 frames later than the effective throw frame of 24. Since Luigi can interrupt his throw on the same frame of the animation in both games (frame 41), this means that the ending lag of the throw - the amount of time after the opponent has been launched that Luigi is unable to act - is 5 frames shorter. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 07:24, April 17, 2021 (EDT)
-:::Ah ok that makes sense. Thanks for explaining it in depth. [[User:SacredFire37|SacredFire37]] ([[User talk:SacredFire37|talk]]) 08:17, April 17, 2021 (EDT)
-== Did Luigi actually get nerfed from ''Smash 4''? ==
-He definitely got some significant nerfs (mainly that Luigi Cyclone can't be used for recovery anymore and his new tether grab being slower), but he also got a lot of buffs to his moveset. Overall, I don't think it's really clear whether or not he got buffed or nerfed in the transition (similar to Marth's transition from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl'').  However, I understand that this is my view so it isn't definitive. What I'm wondering is if it is objective that Luigi was nerfed. [[User:SacredFire37|SacredFire]] ([[User talk:SacredFire37|talk]]). 18:26, October 10, 2021 (EDT)
-:Overall Luigi isn't much different. He's just more polarized (pros got better, cons got worse). He's isn't better or worse, he's just different. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 02:02, October 11, 2021 (EDT)
-::Is that why he's considered to be a "badly designed" character (hopefully this is ok to ask on the talk page)? [[User:SacredFire37|SacredFire]] ([[User talk:SacredFire37|talk]]). 09:55, October 11, 2021 (EDT)
-:::He's badly designed because he can kill you from a single hit but also dies very easily as well because Green Missile is amongst the worst moves in the game. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 12:59, October 11, 2021 (EDT)
-== Luigi’s supposed appearance in the ‘Army of Puppets’ cutscene ==
-The article’s World of Light section says that a puppet fighter of Luigi is present in the ‘Army of Puppets’ cutscene (the second cutscene of Adventure Mode), but I have tried to find him amongst the crowd and unfortunately (which I say because I was personally hoping he was there), I really don’t see him. I don’t know if whoever wrote that on the page meant it in the sense that he’s probably intended to be there along with everyone else and must be somewhere in the background, but if you can’t see him distinctly then it probably doesn’t count. It’s true that you can never really conclusively say if he’s not there like you could conclusively say if he is, but I was hoping some other people could also take a look at that cutscene and try to spot him, and if it seems like he’s really not there we can make the article reflect that. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:68.175.146.155|68.175.146.155]] ([[User talk:68.175.146.155|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/68.175.146.155|contribs]]) 03:38, March 31, 2022 (EDT)</small>
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