Editing Talk:Little Mac (SSBU)

== Moveset Damage ==

A couple days ago I decided to edit the damage aspect of the Moveset portion of this article. It was later reverted back to normal, probably because of something along the lines of no sources. That being said though, i’m certain that the damage data is actually that of Smash 4’s Little Mac. I’ve seen some of the moves hit by hit to see that they’re different. I want to know how it can be fixed and what it should be fixed to because, again, i’m certain that the damage is outdated. [[User:MacForever|MacForever]] ([[User talk:MacForever|talk]]) 01:36, July 8, 2019 (EDT)

== Is Little Mac treaten like a laughingstock? ==

Sometimes i feel that Little Mac is treaten too poorly by the community, he is like their laughingstock or something. Do you think that some buffs may make him more viable and improve his perception? Personally, i would do this:

-Improve his throws and combo game: The collateral hitboxes mostly are a trouble for Little Mac's throws, so i will remove all of them except for down throw. Forward throw would  be a semispike with very low base knockback but very high knockback scaling, allowing it to KO at 145% at the ledge while keeping its tech-chasing ability at low and mid percentages, back throw would launch more diagonally and KO at 120%, up throw would KO at 170% and down throw will have slightly less knockback scaling and its ending lag will be decreased by five frames. As Mac lacks true combos, Up and down tilt will also need some adjustments, their ending lag will be decreased by three frames for the former, and by two for the latter. This will give Mac the combos he needs.

-Reset Jolt Haymaker after a hit and improve Mac's air acceleration and air dodge: It is somewhat stupid that if Little Mac gets hit after using Jolt Haymaker in the air, he can't use it again. This never happened with anyone, so this thing should be removed. Also, Mac's air acceleration should be  higher, at least to be on par with Ike, Roy or Sonic. His directional air dodge should also go slighly further, at least on par with Bayonetta instead of lower.
:This is not the place to muse about buffs and nerfs. Check your talk page. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 07:35, November 3, 2019 (EST)

The reason i wrote this is because ever since Little Mac became playable in SSB4, he received negative reception, and the community treated him as a joke and laughingstock due to his playstle not fitting well in the game, and this still happens today. I thought that some positive changes could improve his perception. And don't tell me that it is meant to be this way because Little Mac is considered an underdog. Not to mention, in his series, he is not very developed. He needs to be treaten better than being considered trash all around.

== Notable Players ==

Wes has pretty notable wins and is a very well known Mac player due to how active he is in his region. Even though he has fewer results at major tournaments than the people on the current list, he definitely has better wins. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 15:04, January 1, 2020 (EST)
:That doesn't necessarily mean he belongs on the notable players list. If he had a win on MkLeo or Tweek but had mediocre placements I believe it would be fine, but in this case he has both mediocre placements and victories over not-so-top players. Remember, not all Little Mac mains deserve to be on the list. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:15, January 1, 2020 (EST)
::These aren't not-so-top players, they're literally PR players in SoCal. I know not every Mac player needs to be on the list, but Wes is definitely very notable. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 02:14, January 5, 2020 (EST)

== Peanut ==

I really think we need to address the elephant in the room here. As things stand, Peanut is probably the most well-known Little Mac main in North America right now. I'm given to understand certain users are dead-set against his inclusion on this article, and the main argument against his inclusion is that his results aren't as good as what is usually seen from players in these sections. However, I would like to note that the decision was made to name the sections "most historically significant players", not "players with best results" or "top players". In terms of historical significance, there is no way we can deny that Peanut has been very influential among Little Mac mains, to the point where top players are taking notice of him. Now, I'm not particularly wired in to the competitive scene as a whole, so I don't really have a huge amount to say on the matter, but I think this is something that really needs to be discussed, as it's clear at this point that Peanut isn't going anywhere, and I don't really think it's fair to just write him off as a wifi warrior. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:03, November 21, 2021 (EST)
:It's not that he's being written off as a wifi Warrior, but he's not even universally agreed upon as the best Mac in MDVA. He's started getting a few notable offline results. So alongside a few other not included currently (the other Mac in his region, Midoriss, and Yaminabe) have also had some results. I do believe the passed proposal under the guidelines requires results that indicate the plauer is among the most historically significant result wise with the character. But Peanut is worth keeping in mind with those other players for  possible inclusion. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 19:28, November 21, 2021 (EST)

== Peanut Should Be A Notable Player ==

Peanut has shown to not only be a very ambitious Little Mac player in Ultimate, but hes gotten results i think are worthy of being considered a recognizable and historically significant Little Mac player.  For results:

*25th at {{Trn|The Box: Lunch Box 11}} (322 entrants)
*33rd at {{Trn|CEO 2021}} (777 entrants)
*49th at {{Trn|Mainstage 2021}} (830 entrants and his name IS on the table)
*13th at {{Trn|CyPhaCon Mini Esports}} (253 entrants)
*33rd at {{Trn|Super Smash Con: Fall Fest}} (769 entrants)
*17th at {{Trn|The Comeback}} (241 entrants)
*Has offline wins over {{Sm|naitosharp}}, {{Sm|ZD}}, {{Sm|Dexter}}, {{Sm|Mj}}, {{Sm|Kreeg}}, {{Sm|Mata-Door}}, and {{Sm|Wal00gi}}
*Has online wins over {{Sm|8BitMan}}, {{Sm|WaDi}}, {{Sm|Myran}}, {{Sm|Ned}}, {{Sm|Jake}}, {{Sm|Syrup}}, and {{Sm|WebbJP}} 
*Has placed consistently well in multiple online tournaments
*Discovered a way for Little Mac to actually go below the stage and come up on the other side of the stage.

Overall, Peanut is very much a historically significant Little Mac player and deserves to be credited as such. [[User:Birdygamer1122|Birdygamer1122]] ([[User talk:Birdygamer1122|talk]]) 19:22, January 11, 2022 (EST)

:I don't have any strong opinions on Peanuts inclusion yet. His results are still a little inconsistent but that's true of most Macs. Hes also ranked in tough region, though no particularly high. On one hand, I think he has a case over GaiA who is on the list but on the other hand I don't see a huge gap between him and say Midoriss and Yaminabe (who aren't on the list) if at all. And if your including online Yaminabe has some really good Mac results. I'm fine with whatever everyone else decides. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 16:02, January 12, 2022 (EST)
::I don't usually get involved with competitive related discussions on the Wiki but, it is quite frankly a travesty that Peanut is not listed on the article. While his results aren't amazing (and a lot of that has to do with the character he mains), they are still noteworthy. But more than that, he is widely considered the best Little Mac main by many top players, he has pioneered new playstyles for the character, and has undoubtably contributed to Little Mac's improved reputation. He is the definition of historically significant. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:28, January 12, 2022 (EST)
:::"He is widely considered the best Little Mac main by many top players."
:::I can certainly see a case for Peanut being added to the list, but Tarakotori still has the best wins and overall placings at majors out of any Little Mac player.  [[User:PokemonMasterJamal3|PokemonMasterJamal3]] ([[User talk:PokemonMasterJamal3|talk]]) 20:26, January 12, 2022 (EST)

My opinion still remains as '''oppose'''. Although Peanut is much better since the last few times you inserted him in, I still don't think it's enough for this section:
:1. Placements at tournaments. Online, outside of weeklies his results, especially WWR-ranked tournaments, range from decent to not that good (which we can see on his Smashdata page). Offline has been largely the same: he performs well at a local level and even at a regional level in some cases, but often doesn't do as well at nationals and above, with 33rd being his best placement at 2 rather recent majors. As for his regional placements, while they are good, they are often the result of a rather "empty" bracket, or a bracket without that many notable wins, which I will go into more detail in my next point. Overall, while he does have some good placements, most of the good ones are too recent to really deem "historically notable."
:2. Wins. I admit some of the online wins are impressive, but the online metagame is rather volatile. That means that it's very possible for any mid-level player to see at least one or two wins over players that would be top players offline; it's why I'm often very wary of adding players solely through their online performance. Offline, his wins aren't as impressive as the other Little Mac players on the list despite going decently far in several tournaments. Going over the offline tournaments you listed, and using the recent OrionRank:
::33rd at CEO 2021. His best win was Zen, who's not in the top 150.
::49th at Mainstage 2021. His best win was Kreeg, again a player not in the top 150
::13th at CyPhaCon Mini Esports. The wins he has are players I haven't heard of, so there's not much I can go off here.
::33rd at SSC Fall Fest. Again, a tournament where his wins are mostly from players I have not heard of.
::17th at The Comeback. His best win was TheMightyDialga, once again not in the top 150.
:As for the wins you listed, the only player on there that was ranked on the OrionRank is naitosharp, and he's ranked 63rd, which is not that high, while most of his other wins are from players in his region. I don't believe that's enough to be "historically notable."
:3. Comparing him to the other Macs. Aside from Death/KALA, who I personally think would be axed sooner or later, the results Peanut has at the moment pales in comparison to the other Little Mac players on the page at the moment. All of them either have higher peaks at nationals, better wins, or both. Even when comparing the results of other Little Mac players on the list, Peanut's results also don't really stand up very well (for example, Midoriss). Heck, Peanut isn't even considered the definitive best Little Mac player in his region with Alternis in the picture. Alternis has what Peanut currently doesn't have - being ranked on the MD/VA PR twice and having a few weekly wins under their belt - as well as the same, if not more, than what Peanut has - he basically has the same wins Peanut has, in addition to Puppeh, and peaked at 25th at a major tournament. Finally, as PMJ said, he is also not "widely considered the best Little Mac main by many top players" unless they're either memeing or oblivious to results from other regions, which as shown with the reaction to the recent OrionRank, is uncomfortably common amongst top players. 

Is it possible for Peanut to be added in this section? Perhaps, as his results aren't terrible. However, his best results were rather recen (and even then, not as good as what other Macs have had) while his catalogue of wins isn't as impressive as several other Little Mac players. As a result, I don't see him having historical notability at the moment. In the future? If he keeps up with what he has, sure, but certainly not right now. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 00:12, January 17, 2022 (EST)

If that's the case than why isn't {{Sm|Alternis}} on the list if he has Peanut's results but also has rankings to back it up??
[[User:Birdygamer1122|Birdygamer1122]] ([[User talk:Birdygamer1122|talk]]) 01:24, January 20, 2022 (EST)
:{{Sm|Alternis|p=SoVA}} is the correct page btw. Sure he might be PR'd but he doesn't go to big tourneys that much, plus he doesn't have Peanut's online results. Locals don't count much if at all for these sections so it is kinda whatever, he only showed that he does better in region so he doesn't necessarily "has Peanut's results". Always remember not to recency bias. In addition, Peanut is no way "widely considered the best Mac" when he can't even take a set of a highly ranked player, while players like {{Sm|Tarakotori}} and {{Sm|GaiA}} have already done so. Not to mention that, {{Sm|Kwaz}} already had better overall results. So both of them shouldn't be in for now. But of course, things can be changed in the future. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 03:37, January 20, 2022 (EST)
:Because aside from one solid and recent national placement as well as a few good wins, he also doesn't have much to really be considered "historical notable." My point in comparing Alternis and Peanut is to show that if a player that is better than Peanut (or, at the very least, similar) is not on the list, then I don't think Peanut should as well. Not every player who is ranked goes on the list; we aren't adding {{Sm|Nugget}} even though they're ranked in Thailand. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:39, January 20, 2022 (EST)

I've been thinking about this. I think we should cut the list to just Kwaz and Tarakotori. In terms of results they have the best results for Japan and North America while also cutting down on arguments over who to include or not, as the gap between the next tiers arent huge. I've included my thoughts on player results below, in case anyone thinks I'm over or underrating anyone.

Thinking about other players on list
:''BlasterZ'' -Mixed regional results, best and only good national result was 25th at DoKomi 2021. Decent wins. 
:''Death'' - Good results. Peak national was 25th at Smash Factor which was an major or Supermajor depending on who you listen to. 33rd at another major. Had only decent wins. Not very active 
:''GaiA'' - Good regional results, nationals are not the best, peak national was 49th at an Unebura, has some of the best Little Mac wins.

And players not on the list 
:''Alternis'' - Couple strong wins (Puppeh, naitosharp). Mixed nationals, peak 25th at Smash Con with a fairly tough bracket. 
:''Midoriss'' - Rarely competes outside region. Good wins in region plus a top 50 OrionRank Eclipse win. Peak national 17th at VCA. 
:''Peanut'' - Mixed national results but a few pretty good ones. Peak is 33rd at Smash Con and CEO but brackets were kinda weak. One good win in Naitosharp and then some good regional wins. 
:''Yaminabe'' - Mixed national results. Peak result was 25th at Umebura 6. Good wins. Regularly competes at nationals. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 13:14, February 3, 2022 (EST)

I agree that Kwaz and Tarakotori should stay, as they're the best Little Mac players so far.

Death/KALA should certainly be axed, since he hasn't had anything substantial in quite a while. I still think BlasterZ is fine, especially with 25th/318 at DoKomi, but I do think his results are more flimsy than I previously perceived (the recent regional results do not help). I think GaiA is still fine as well, especially since he's rather consistent at a regional level (and even his national results haven't been abysmal recently) and has the better wins out of most of the players here, but I do see how flimsy his case is as well. 

I'm still opposed to Alternis and Peanut, but I wouldn't be surprised if either one of them makes a better case in the future. Also don't think Yaminabe should be on here at the moment due to having mostly weak results even at a regional level. I have the most confidence in Midoriss mainly due to how well he does in Italy as well as his improving national results, but similar to the MD/VA Macs I think we should wait on him as well. 

Just my takes. I'd be fine with having only Kwaz and Tarakotori on the list, especially when it's odd having half of the spaces filled up for a character that has [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1zTKrF1HOv70Pp8xdJKrRQy3QiMYKLTCstoVNgxymt0o/edit#gid=0 bottom 5 representation in the current metagame], but I still think a few players can make a case, especially eventually. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 14:17, February 3, 2022 (EST)
:Ultimately if we do agree to cut the page, I'd be fine keeping GaiA if that's consensus. GaiAs results are not amazing to me, but the wins are comparable if not better than Kwaz. So that does distinguish him from other Little Macs. And he does have some good regional and a few pretty decent nationals (Maesuma 4 and the Umebura).  [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 14:49, February 3, 2022 (EST)

Peanut recently placed 65th out 1959 at {{Trn|GENESIS 8}} and 65th out of 433 at {{Trn|Pound 2022}}.  Those are pretty good results and his name is on the placements table.  We can add these two to his accomplishments. [[User:Birdygamer1122|Birdygamer1122]] ([[User talk:Birdygamer1122|talk]]) 19:22, May 2, 2022 (EDT)
:"65th out 1959 at {{Trn|GENESIS 8}} and 65th out of 433 at {{Trn|Pound 2022}}"
::While those are decent results, again those runs didn't have many great wins, if any at all. Having just "good" results is not enough for this section.
:"his name is on the placements table"
::This has nothing to do with historical notability. Placement tables can go as long as it wants, which is why [[Tournament:Smash Masterclass|this Italian regional]] went up to 97th place. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:42, May 2, 2022 (EDT)

for the record i somewhat think peanut should be added esp since he's ranked in such a stacked region, but for what it's worth just letting u know i was the one who first discovered that little mac could go underneath smashville lol https://twitter.com/LuigiTKO/status/1215077714765414400. he never took credit for discovering it either iirc, pretty sure someone mentioned it on one of his streams and he wanted to try it out. [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 20:12, May 7, 2022 (EDT)
:Rankings don't necessarily mean historical notability (eg, Alternis has been ranked twice on the rankings as well), especially someone ranked outside of the top 10 . [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:53, May 7, 2022 (EDT)

* 33rd at {{Trn|MomoCon 2022}} (666 entrants}}
** With wins over {{Sm|Chunky}} and {{Sm|Comet}}
[[User:Birdygamer1122|Birdygamer1122]] ([[User talk:Birdygamer1122|talk]]) 15:42, May 30, 2022 (EDT)
:Please do not add all the major tournament results and wins Peanut has to this section, especially after every major he attends. It just serves as additional bloat to this already-heavily bloated section. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:10, May 30, 2022 (EDT)
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 [[User:Birdygamer1122|Birdygamer1122]] ([[User talk:Birdygamer1122|talk]]) 15:42, May 30, 2022 (EDT)
 :Please do not add all the major tournament results and wins Peanut has to this section, especially after every major he attends. It just serves as additional bloat to this already-heavily bloated section. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:10, May 30, 2022 (EDT)
-Well it's been a few months since the last post on here. During this period Peanut has actually had some pretty solid runs, especially at {{Trn|Super Smash Con 2022}}, where he defeated {{Sm|Jahzz0}} and {{Sm|Capitancito}}, the former being a top 100 player. In addition, as much as I don't think placements matter too much, being a consistent top 96 presence at majors is a pretty good feat especially for a character that has little representation at a high level. At this point, I wouldn't mind if Peanut does get added to the section since he has established enough historical notability in my eyes, but knowing that there will be people adding this in, I also wouldn't go and call him the "best in the world" especially with Tarakotori's results and recent wins which include {{Sm|kameme}} and {{Sm|Eim}}.
-I'd also keep an eye on bt.yamato, a Little Mac player from Smash 4 who has had rather solid runs recently in Japan. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:16, September 20, 2022 (EDT)
-adding another point that peanut's 13/425 run at glitch is mac's second best result at a smash tournament to my knowledge, and by far the best recently since tarakotori's 13/517 run at umebura sp 4 was in 2019, definitely enough to be historically notable at this point [[User:Luigi86101|Luigi86101]] ([[User talk:Luigi86101|talk]]) 00:36, October 1, 2022 (EDT)
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