Editing Talk:List of spirits (disambiguation)

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*This spirit’s Giant Killer effect references the cutscene from ''The Subspace Emissary'' where Kirby uses the Dragoon to defeat the Subspace Gunship, a giant airship cannon.
*This spirit’s Giant Killer effect references the cutscene from ''The Subspace Emissary'' where Kirby uses the Dragoon to defeat the Subspace Gunship, a giant airship cannon.
|}
|}
:I wonder if it's is a bit much asking for a table, or at least a list, regarding the Inspirations for spirits without spirit battles? For example, the Inspirations regarding the enhanced spirits: (i.e. Skull Kid & Majora's Mask's Grab type and Lifesteal effect referencing Skull Kid stealing Majora's Mask and eventually falling under its dark influence), or purchasable spirits (i.e. the Super Mushroom's Support type and Stats ↑ after Eating effect referencing how the Super Mushroom increases the player’s health and power in the ''Super Mario'' platformers.)[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 20:03, March 8, 2021 (EST)
People have started adding an "other trivia" section in the "Inspiration" column. This make this proposition even more relevant, because putting an "Other trivia" section in a "Inspiration" column doesn't quite make sense in one hand, and because spirits without battle that could have relevant "Other trivia" exist. So I'm bumping again the idea to move the Inspiration column away from the spirit battle array and to put it in a separate array right before the general "trivia" section. I don't think anyone has a strong negative opinion of this second part of my proposition. The only negative point brought up was the disconnexion between the battle inspirations and the battle data, a negative point that can easily be worked around with proper wording (which is pretty much already done for most of the inspirations anyway). So, to anyone involved in this topic, any strong objection? Or are we all neutral-to-positive on this? Unfortunatly, I don't think we will ever be able to get more people to talk about this, so will this be enough of a consensus for that second part alone? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 06:55, April 21, 2021 (EDT)
:Bumping that up because more and more "Other trivia" are being added, and I don't think there is much of a choice here because the current system doesn't allow spirits without battle to have other trivia. A separate array for the spirits trivia is needed, and yet again, there is no strong argument against it. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 01:50, May 9, 2021 (EDT)
===Comments about the whole proposition===
===Comments about the whole proposition===
Various problems cause me to '''oppose''' this in its entirety.
Various problems cause me to '''oppose''' this in its entirety.
Line 289: Line 283:
:::For the Inspirations, honestly if one day I noticed they were completely gone I wouldn't lose sleep over it. To me a lot of the Inspiration stuff feels like writing homework "what did the author mean by this?" "what does the white peacock symbolize". I don't think we need to write out every single little thing about spirits. For the World of Light information we already have a place for it: the World of Light pages. Now, if we were to move the WoL information to the WoL pages we should keep it short. "Moblin's placement reflects their frequent appearance in temples in The Legend of Zelda" is enough, stuff involving stage appearance matching placement isn't interesting "Desert themed spirit on desert themed stage in the desert in WoL". Other information (type, ability, etc.) I'm not sure how to handle, but it does tie into my gripe above of not spelling out everything. Is Paz Ortega Andrade having a Bob-omb straight-forward? No, so it would be cool to mention why but I'm not sold on where it should be mentioned. A part of me feels like stuff like that should just be nods to the people who know and be left unmentioned, and if interesting stuff like that isn't mentioned then less interesting stuff about type and what-not shouldn't either. If we limit it to less subtle references like Paz then perhaps there would be so little it can just go in the normal Trivia section.
:::For the Inspirations, honestly if one day I noticed they were completely gone I wouldn't lose sleep over it. To me a lot of the Inspiration stuff feels like writing homework "what did the author mean by this?" "what does the white peacock symbolize". I don't think we need to write out every single little thing about spirits. For the World of Light information we already have a place for it: the World of Light pages. Now, if we were to move the WoL information to the WoL pages we should keep it short. "Moblin's placement reflects their frequent appearance in temples in The Legend of Zelda" is enough, stuff involving stage appearance matching placement isn't interesting "Desert themed spirit on desert themed stage in the desert in WoL". Other information (type, ability, etc.) I'm not sure how to handle, but it does tie into my gripe above of not spelling out everything. Is Paz Ortega Andrade having a Bob-omb straight-forward? No, so it would be cool to mention why but I'm not sold on where it should be mentioned. A part of me feels like stuff like that should just be nods to the people who know and be left unmentioned, and if interesting stuff like that isn't mentioned then less interesting stuff about type and what-not shouldn't either. If we limit it to less subtle references like Paz then perhaps there would be so little it can just go in the normal Trivia section.
:::If we are concerned about the visual space the Inspirations take up, I already gave my suggestion above of making them a fixed size with a scrollbar. It would make things much more manageable on all screens and it would give more focus to useful information. <br/>--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 08:12, March 8, 2021 (EST)
:::If we are concerned about the visual space the Inspirations take up, I already gave my suggestion above of making them a fixed size with a scrollbar. It would make things much more manageable on all screens and it would give more focus to useful information. <br/>--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 08:12, March 8, 2021 (EST)
::::You know, I've been reading into this last comment, and I think I have to agree with CanvasK on this one. If it's possible, maybe we can take the World of Light and Dark Realm world maps and split them into separate pages highlighting each sections (i.e. the Heart Pool, Pac-Maze, Raging Volcano, etc.) and list off the spirit battles, chests, and obstacles similar to how IGN did with the walkthrough of World of Light on their website. We would also have to consider adding in a Spirit Battle placement column for better context (i.e. the spirits on Galeem and Dharkon's sides of the Final Battle map) if that helps any.[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 14:41, March 20, 2021 (EDT)
:::::Mayeb it's the width of the enemy fighters column? It makes the mobile view on the computer too cramped to read the Inspirations column imo.[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 18:57, March 21, 2021 (EDT)
===Moving the "Inspiration" table below the battle parameters===
The tables look extremely cluttered on desktop with lots of empty spaces and lots of text-heavy spaces. I think if we move it below the Parameters box, the whole thing will loke way more balanced.
This is how one of the worst cases looks right now:
{{SpiritBattleHeader|inspiration=y|s=y|hideseries=y}}
|-
|1,306
|{{SpiritTableName|Phantom Thieves of Hearts|size=64}}
|•{{SSBU|Joker}} {{Head|Joker|g=SSBU|s=20px}}<br>•{{SSBU|Pikachu}} {{Head|Pikachu|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Libre}}<br>•{{SSBU|Captain Falcon}} {{Head|Captain Falcon|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}}<br>•{{SSBU|Zero Suit Samus}} {{Head|Zero Suit Samus|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Red}}<br>•{{SSBU|Chrom}} {{Head|Chrom|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}}<br>•{{SSBU|Sheik}} {{Head|Sheik|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}}
|{{SpiritType|Grab}}
|13,300
|[[Mementos]] (Haru Okumura background, hazards off)
|•Sudden Final Smash<br>•Item: [[Daybreak]] Parts
|•The enemy will suddenly have a Final Smash when the enemy's at high damage<br>•Reinforcements will appear during the battle
|{{SSBUMusicLink|Persona|Wake Up, Get Up, Get Out There}}
|'''Spirit Battle trivia:'''
*The fighters represents the members of the Phantom Thieves of Hearts appearing in the order they are recruited, with their leader, Joker appearing at the end, using [[All-Out Attack]] alongside his allies. Pikachu, Captain Falcon, and Zero Suit Samus each starts off with a weapon, referencing the items used in their respective battles.
*The only members of the Phantom Thieves excluded from this spirit battle are Haru Okumura (who appears as a background character instead), Futaba Sakura (who serves as a guide rather than participating in combat), and Goro Akechi (who is a temporary party member).
*The Daybreak Part items reference the name of the game's OVA adaption, ''The Day Breakers''. It also likely references Sinful Shell, a skill which is used to defeat the final boss [https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Yaldabaoth Yaldabaoth] at the very end of the game.
*Using the Daybreak weapon also leaves blue flames on the floor of the stage, similar to the blue flames that appear when one of the main characters awakens to their Persona in the game, as seen with Joker and Arsène.
----'''Other trivia:'''
*This spirit's Support type, Grab battle type, and Item Autograb ability references the Phantom Thieves of Hearts' goal to "steal" the corrupt hearts of evil adults and change and reform society for the better.
|-
|1,307
|{{SpiritTableName|Igor|size=64}}
|•{{SSBU|Robin}} {{Head|Robin|g=SSBU|s=20px}}<br>•{{SSBU|Ridley}} {{Head|Ridley|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Blue}}×3
|{{SpiritType|Neutral}}
|10,600
|[[Kalos Pokémon League]] (hazards off)
|•Health Recovery<br>•Item: [[Assist Trophy]]
|•Defeat the main fighter to win<br>•Start with 300% damage<br>•You are healed significantly after a little while
|{{SSBUMusicLink|Persona|Aria of the Soul}}
|'''Spirit Battle trivia:'''
*Robin and Igor are both depicted with grey hair and black clothes.
*The three Ridley minions likely represent the various Personas which Igor can summon and fuse for the protagonists of the series, many of which have demonic designs.
*The stage and music reference the [https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Velvet_Room Velvet Room], of which Igor is the proprietor.
*The Assist Trophy items reference how meeting Igor results in the protagonists' awakening and summoning their Personas.
*The Sudden Damage rule, third battle condition reference the "awakening" aspect where the protagonists of ''Persona 5'' rips away a mask bonded to their flesh and eventually heals over time.
----'''Other trivia:'''
*This spirit's Support type and Chance of Double Final Smash ability references Igor's role to grant the power of their Personas to the main protagonists of the ''Persona'' series, with the ability referencing the power granted to the Persona Users from their own Personas.
|}
And this is how I propose it should look like:
{{SpiritBattleHeader|s=y|hideseries=y}}
|-
|rowspan="2"|1,306
|rowspan="2"|[[File:SSBU spirit Phantom Thieves of Hearts.png|center|64x64px]]
|rowspan="2"|Phantom Thieves of Hearts
|• {{Head|Joker|g=SSBU|s=20px}} {{SSBU|Joker}}<br>• {{Head|Pikachu|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Libre}} {{SSBU|Pikachu}}<br>• {{Head|Captain Falcon|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}} {{SSBU|Captain Falcon}}<br>• {{Head|Zero Suit Samus|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Red}} {{SSBU|Zero Suit Samus}}<br>• {{Head|Chrom|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}} {{SSBU|Chrom}}<br>• {{Head|Sheik|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}} {{SSBU|Sheik}}
|{{SpiritType|Grab}}
|13,300
|[[Mementos]]<br>(Haru Okumura background, hazards off)
|•Sudden Final Smash<br>•Item: [[Daybreak]] Parts
|•The enemy will suddenly have a Final Smash when the enemy's at high damage<br>•Reinforcements will appear during the battle
|{{SSBUMusicLink|Persona|Wake Up, Get Up, Get Out There}}
|-
|colspan="7"|'''Spirit Battle trivia:'''
*The fighters represents the members of the Phantom Thieves of Hearts appearing in the order they are recruited, with their leader, Joker appearing at the end, using [[All-Out Attack]] alongside his allies. Pikachu, Captain Falcon, and Zero Suit Samus each starts off with a weapon, referencing the items used in their respective battles.
*The only members of the Phantom Thieves excluded from this spirit battle are Haru Okumura (who appears as a background character instead), Futaba Sakura (who serves as a guide rather than participating in combat), and Goro Akechi (who is a temporary party member).
*The Daybreak Part items reference the name of the game's OVA adaption, ''The Day Breakers''. It also likely references Sinful Shell, a skill which is used to defeat the final boss [https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Yaldabaoth Yaldabaoth] at the very end of the game.
*Using the Daybreak weapon also leaves blue flames on the floor of the stage, similar to the blue flames that appear when one of the main characters awakens to their Persona in the game, as seen with Joker and Arsène.
----'''Other trivia:'''
*This spirit's Support type, Grab battle type, and Item Autograb ability references the Phantom Thieves of Hearts' goal to "steal" the corrupt hearts of evil adults and change and reform society for the better.
|-
|rowspan="2"|1,307
|rowspan="2"|[[File:SSBU spirit Igor.png|center|64x64px]]
|rowspan="2"|Igor
|• {{Head|Robin|g=SSBU|s=20px}} {{SSBU|Robin}}<br>• {{Head|Ridley|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Blue}} {{SSBU|Ridley}} ×3
|{{SpiritType|Neutral}}
|10,600
|[[Kalos Pokémon League]]<br>(hazards off)
|•Health Recovery<br>•Item: [[Assist Trophy]]
|•Defeat the main fighter to win<br>•Start with 300% damage<br>•You are healed significantly after a little while
|{{SSBUMusicLink|Persona|Aria of the Soul}}
|-
|colspan="7"|'''Spirit Battle trivia:'''
*Robin and Igor are both depicted with grey hair and black clothes.
*The three Ridley minions likely represent the various Personas which Igor can summon and fuse for the protagonists of the series, many of which have demonic designs.
*The stage and music reference the [https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Velvet_Room Velvet Room], of which Igor is the proprietor.
*The Assist Trophy items reference how meeting Igor results in the protagonists' awakening and summoning their Personas.
*The Sudden Damage rule, third battle condition reference the "awakening" aspect where the protagonists of ''Persona 5'' rips away a mask bonded to their flesh and eventually heals over time.
----'''Other trivia:'''
*This spirit's Support type and Chance of Double Final Smash ability references Igor's role to grant the power of their Personas to the main protagonists of the ''Persona'' series, with the ability referencing the power granted to the Persona Users from their own Personas.
|}
As you can see, the text-heavy "Inspiration" box doesn't clog up on the right side and it takes up a lot less vertical space, so there's also less empty space on the other boxes.
I also put the enemy fighter icons '''before''' their names so it looks more orderly, and added '''<nowiki><br></nowiki>''' between the stage's name and the additional stage info like "no hazards" to prevent it from unnecessarily pushing the rest of the boxes to the right.
The only problem with this is that since there's several horizontal partitions within a single spirit's infobox, we should make the partitions between different spirits thicker to make them stand out (I don't know how to do this). Or we could use two interchangeable shades of gray to distinguish between each spirit's infobox (assuming this doesn't heavily increment the article's size). But that aside, I still think my proposition is more visually approachable than what we have now. --[[User:Gabo 2oo|Gabo 2oo]] ([[User talk:Gabo 2oo|talk]]) 09:39, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:The thing is that by merging cells and separating rows of information the table loses the ability to be sorted correctly (which is the main reason why it's currently as is and why it's sortable), as much as I agree with you and sincerely I'm one to prefer design over functionality in wiki tables. I think I saw somewhere that wikis have the functionality of declaring 2 rows as 1 for sortability but I can't recall where I saw that nor if this wiki has that functionality. [[User:GamblerMario|GamblerMario]] ([[User talk:GamblerMario|talk]]) 10:28, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:(edit conflict)I like the idea of putting stage info on a separate line. But everything else I have some issue with, some only because there are no examples.
:#Fighter icons: None you show have modifiers (Clear, Team, etc.) but I can picture how those could work. The big thing is multiple of that fighter. Multiple of the same color is easy, but what about different color like for Jinjos or Ancient Minister? Or different stats like Gruntilda? Speaking of Ancient Minister, R.O.B. always has region changes when using his default color, how does that work?
:#rowspans: ''Every '''single''''' battle would require rowspans. Currently only battles with DLC changes have this and I dislike it from a wikicode perspective, but it is the best way. All use the SpiritTableName template, so that could just be tossed in, but it still needs to be added to the numbers.
:#Sorting: Have you used the sorting buttons? Instantly separates the inspiration and the battle info. This is because of the rowspans. We have this same issue with DLC changes, but I'm fine with that because, technically, it is a separate battle so a separate row makes sense. Instead you effectively get a new table of just inspiration, which was YoshiRyu's initial proposal. Because of the separating, large tables get even larger. It already takes a bit to sort the table on the Others page, now it needs to spend time recalculating new cells and rows. Could do what I mention below, but that has other issues and is needed for every battle.
:#:To GamblerMario, [[metawikimedia:Help:Sorting#Keeping_some_rows_together|it is possible]] to sort two rows as one using <code>class="expand-child"</code> on the second row, but it works weirdly with rowspans. I tried it on the above example and it still splits the first three columns.
:#Importance: It gives a lot of importance to something that doesn't have any impact on how someone plays. There's a reason Trivia sections are always at the bottoms of pages; most people don't care about it that much.
:Those are my thoughts. I like the change with stages and I'll humor the fighter icons if it can be ironed out, but everything else '''oppose'''. I still think a better long-term solution is to work more on trimming down the current inspiration. I have half a mind to delete any "other trivia" because there was never consensus on that and it is tangentially related to the battles ''at best''. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:41, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
::: How about:
{{SpiritBattleHeader|s=y|hideseries=y}}
|-
|1,306
|[[File:SSBU spirit Phantom Thieves of Hearts.png|center|64x64px]]
|Phantom Thieves of Hearts
|• {{Head|Joker|g=SSBU|s=20px}} {{SSBU|Joker}}<br>• {{Head|Pikachu|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Libre}} {{SSBU|Pikachu}}<br>• {{Head|Captain Falcon|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}} {{SSBU|Captain Falcon}}<br>• {{Head|Zero Suit Samus|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Red}} {{SSBU|Zero Suit Samus}}<br>• {{Head|Chrom|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}} {{SSBU|Chrom}}<br>• {{Head|Sheik|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Black}} {{SSBU|Sheik}}
|{{SpiritType|Grab}}
|13,300
|[[Mementos]]<br>(Haru Okumura background, hazards off)
|•Sudden Final Smash<br>•Item: [[Daybreak]] Parts
|•The enemy will suddenly have a Final Smash when the enemy's at high damage<br>•Reinforcements will appear during the battle
|{{SSBUMusicLink|Persona|Wake Up, Get Up, Get Out There}}
|-class="expand-child" style="font-size: 80%;"
|colspan="10"|'''Spirit Battle trivia:'''
*The fighters represents the members of the Phantom Thieves of Hearts appearing in the order they are recruited, with their leader, Joker appearing at the end, using [[All-Out Attack]] alongside his allies. Pikachu, Captain Falcon, and Zero Suit Samus each starts off with a weapon, referencing the items used in their respective battles.
*The only members of the Phantom Thieves excluded from this spirit battle are Haru Okumura (who appears as a background character instead), Futaba Sakura (who serves as a guide rather than participating in combat), and Goro Akechi (who is a temporary party member).
*The Daybreak Part items reference the name of the game's OVA adaption, ''The Day Breakers''. It also likely references Sinful Shell, a skill which is used to defeat the final boss [https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Yaldabaoth Yaldabaoth] at the very end of the game.
*Using the Daybreak weapon also leaves blue flames on the floor of the stage, similar to the blue flames that appear when one of the main characters awakens to their Persona in the game, as seen with Joker and Arsène.
----'''Other trivia:'''
*This spirit's Support type, Grab battle type, and Item Autograb ability references the Phantom Thieves of Hearts' goal to "steal" the corrupt hearts of evil adults and change and reform society for the better.
|-
|1,307
|[[File:SSBU spirit Igor.png|center|64x64px]]
|Igor
|• {{Head|Robin|g=SSBU|s=20px}} {{SSBU|Robin}}<br>• {{Head|Ridley|g=SSBU|s=20px|cl=Blue}} {{SSBU|Ridley}} ×3
|{{SpiritType|Neutral}}
|10,600
|[[Kalos Pokémon League]]<br>(hazards off)
|•Health Recovery<br>•Item: [[Assist Trophy]]
|•Defeat the main fighter to win<br>•Start with 300% damage<br>•You are healed significantly after a little while
|{{SSBUMusicLink|Persona|Aria of the Soul}}
|-class="expand-child" style="font-size: 80%;"
|colspan="10"|'''Spirit Battle trivia:'''
*Robin and Igor are both depicted with grey hair and black clothes.
*The three Ridley minions likely represent the various Personas which Igor can summon and fuse for the protagonists of the series, many of which have demonic designs.
*The stage and music reference the [https://megamitensei.fandom.com/wiki/Velvet_Room Velvet Room], of which Igor is the proprietor.
*The Assist Trophy items reference how meeting Igor results in the protagonists' awakening and summoning their Personas.
*The Sudden Damage rule, third battle condition reference the "awakening" aspect where the protagonists of ''Persona 5'' rips away a mask bonded to their flesh and eventually heals over time.
----'''Other trivia:'''
*This spirit's Support type and Chance of Double Final Smash ability references Igor's role to grant the power of their Personas to the main protagonists of the ''Persona'' series, with the ability referencing the power granted to the Persona Users from their own Personas.
|}
:::That way the trivia follows the sorting and it's implyed that it's part of the previous spirit. Or we can add the functionality to hide the "trivia row" so that only people interested in it will see it. [[User:GamblerMario|GamblerMario]] ([[User talk:GamblerMario|talk]]) 11:03, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
::::I think that is a better idea than what Gabo 2oo suggested. I tried it on a battle with DLC changes and it still mostly works if you put the class on the DLC row as well; [https://i.imgur.com/KtFnSUq.png here is a screenshot] of how it looks on a simulated Galaxy S9 and my 4:3 monitor. It still requires adding it to every row, but at least it doesn't split things up (may have over-emphasized my issue with rowspans above). If you wanted to make that cell hide-able, you'd need to add <code>class="mw-collapsible"</code>. This could also be done with the current format, which I think may be a simpler solution (and add <code>mw-collapsed</code> to hide by default), though that may just sweep the overall issue under the rug. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 12:26, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:::::Just tested on the current design and DLC rows creates a seemingly useless button when sorted whereas the non-DLC row works. That's annoying. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 12:30, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
'''Agree''' with the issue (especially on small resolutions where you can't even see two row at once some times), but '''disagree''' with the solution: I still think the spirit trivia (including the battle inspiration) should be in a separate array for not all the spirit have battles yet all of them have trivia regardless (about their type, about their stats, about their skill, about the way you can acquire them, etc). [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 12:59, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:So, can we go ahead with the tables uniformation? Or we should wait for more people to give their opinion before we arrive to a global consensus? [[User:GamblerMario|GamblerMario]] ([[User talk:GamblerMario|talk]]) 11:06, July 19, 2021 (EDT)
::No one has been in full support of a proposal other than their own, and everyone has had their own proposal. I'd say if we move forward with anything it would be to start a new section, preferably with sub-headers for each person's idea and links to/images of their design (No tables, people putting their tables here takes up too much byte, text, and visual space. We have {{s|SmashWiki|Sandbox}}es for a reason; can even link to specific revisions). --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 11:30, July 19, 2021 (EDT)
:::I personally approve of the idea, since it's easy on the eyes in both desktop and mobile views, but the only question is how to go about the battles with the original and DLC content? I'm trying to merge them with the Enemy Fighter(s) column, but the separation will only push the other column entries over.[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 12:51, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
::::At this point, I think that despite their flaws, each one of the proposed solutions is still better than the current way this is displayed in the arrays. So I think we should just pick any of them and start moving forward. It doesn't matter if it isn't the perfect solution, we will simply iterate on it to better it little by little. Also I needed an excuse to fix the indentation of your three previous messages... [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 16:43, September 10, 2021 (EDT)
::::: I, for one, propose we reach a consensus with the idea, since we haven't talked much about it. Of course, the text will have to be at 100 % size because 80% isn't good enough for people who can't read that small, but the collapsible tables will definitely put an ease on the space of each spirits series page. On top of all that, the inspirations won't feel so cramped like they do in the Inspirations column[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 21:08, September 30, 2021 (EDT)


== Spirit Battle Templates ==
== Spirit Battle Templates ==
Line 458: Line 294:
*Much simpler pages have [[Template:TrophyTableRow|templates they use]], I feel it is time for Spirit Battles to do the same
*Much simpler pages have [[Template:TrophyTableRow|templates they use]], I feel it is time for Spirit Battles to do the same


I've already been working on some ideas for templates. I have one for [[User:CanvasK/SpiritBattleRow|rows]] (which incorporates many of my ideas from above), [[User:CanvasK/SpiritBattleHeader|headers]] (which ties into the row template), and [[User:CanvasK/SpiritBattleHead|enemy fighter info]]. I'd like to hear other's thoughts on the idea of using templates in general before thoughts on the templates themselves.<br/>--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 14:12, March 7, 2021 (EST)
I've already been working on some ideas for templates. I have one for [[User:CanvasK/SpiritBattleRow|rows]] (which incorporates many of my ideas from above), [[User:CanvasK/SpiritBattleHeader|headers]] (which ties into the row template), and [[User:CanvasK/Sandbox/Spirit Heads|enemy fighter info]]. I'd like to hear other's thoughts on the idea of using templates in general before thoughts on the templates themselves.<br/>--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 14:12, March 7, 2021 (EST)
:I can't exactly get a good visual picture of how the templates would work. Perhaps an example would help me grasp the direction of your concept better?[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 22:16, March 7, 2021 (EST)
:I can't exactly get a good visual picture of how the templates would work. Perhaps an example would help me grasp the direction of your concept better?[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 22:16, March 7, 2021 (EST)
::There's an example in [[User:CanvasK/SpiritBattleRow|the first link]], just added a code preview. It wouldn't change anything for the viewer, but for editors it would ideally make things easier. Since you mainly deal in the "Inspirations" section, you would put everything in the "insp" param just like you would in the row cell; not much would change in how you operate. The benefit of using the template (assuming it has the scrolling "Inspirations") is that if it feels like there is too much/too little space for the "Inspirations", we can edit the template once and it would affect every page instead of manually changing 40+ pages. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:44, March 7, 2021 (EST)
::There's an example in [[User:CanvasK/SpiritBattleRow|the first link]], just added a code preview. It wouldn't change anything for the viewer, but for editors it would ideally make things easier. Since you mainly deal in the "Inspirations" section, you would put everything in the "insp" param just like you would in the row cell; not much would change in how you operate. The benefit of using the template (assuming it has the scrolling "Inspirations") is that if it feels like there is too much/too little space for the "Inspirations", we can edit the template once and it would affect every page instead of manually changing 40+ pages. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:44, March 7, 2021 (EST)
::Thank goodness for that. I hate how cramped the "Inspirations" column is on some pages, especially the Pokémon spirit battle "Inspiration" column. [[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 11:42, March 8, 2021 (EST)
::Thank goodness for that. I hate how cramped the "Inspirations" column is on some pages, especially the Pokémon spirit battle "Inspiration" column. [[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 11:42, March 8, 2021 (EST)


:<s>I wonder if it's is a bit much asking for a table, or at least a list, regarding the Inspirations for spirits without spirit battles? For example, the Inspirations regarding the enhanced spirits: (i.e. Skull Kid & Majora's Mask's Grab type and Lifesteal effect referencing Skull Kid stealing Majora's Mask and eventually falling under its dark influence), or purchasable spirits (i.e. the Super Mushroom's Support type and Stats ↑ after Eating effect referencing how the Super Mushroom increases the player’s health and power in the ''Super Mario'' platformers.)[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 19:16, March 8, 2021 (EST)</s>
:I wonder if it's is a bit much asking for a table, or at least a list, regarding the Inspirations for spirits without spirit battles? For example, the Inspirations regarding the enhanced spirits: (i.e. Skull Kid & Majora's Mask's Grab type and Lifesteal effect referencing Skull Kid stealing Majora's Mask and eventually falling under its dark influence), or purchasable spirits (i.e. the Super Mushroom's Support type and Stats ↑ after Eating effect referencing how the Super Mushroom increases the player’s health and power in the ''Super Mario'' platformers.)[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 19:16, March 8, 2021 (EST)
::Did you mean to post this in the above topic? I'm not sure how this relates to the template discussion. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 19:26, March 8, 2021 (EST)
::Did you mean to post this in the above topic? I'm not sure how this relates to the template discussion. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 19:26, March 8, 2021 (EST)
This seems like a good idea, and much more preferable to me than the earlier proposed idea of giving spirit battle inspirations their own section (because it seems like that would only lead to the pages becoming even longer and the inspiration sections becoming even more bloated, and that's a very bad idea in my eyes). In addition to the template itself cutting down on the number of bytes in each page, scroll bars for the inspiration sections would allow them to fit more information without having to split them off or stretch things out. That being said, we definitely need to implement some kind of quality control for what constitutes as "inspiration", as I think it's gotten [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_spirits_(Kirby_series)&oldid=1383547#Spirit_Battles a bit] [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=List_of_spirits_(Kirby_series)&diff=1546632&oldid=1546510#Spirit_Battles out of hand.] ~ [[User:StrawberryChan|<span style="color: #e68;">'''StrawberryChan'''</span>]] ([[User talk:StrawberryChan|talk]]) 20:45, March 8, 2021 (EST)
:Truth be told, the old format of the Spirit Battle inspirations one part of the story. I just thought I'd expand on it so it'd give better context. My apologies if the current format makes it uncomfortable to the eyes. [[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 21:33, March 8, 2021 (EST)
:In most cases my row template would use up more bytes than the original (at most 50), however that isn't necessarily a bad thing. Take {{tl|PowerRankingsRow}} for example, it is the 113th most used template at the moment (not counting how much it is used per page). The first usage I found was 69 bytes, 56 if visual formatting is removed. Converting to normal wikitext it became 53 bytes. A small trade-off for usability. My template is similar in that it can allow the user to not reference other rows or the header and takes care of stuff like anchors, images, type, and other formatting. And, again, like PowerRankingsRow it will end up saving bytes when its full suite is used. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:32, March 10, 2021 (EST)
Thought about was is being said in no particular order.
*I agree that the inspirations have gone out of hand, plus some are quite speculative by nature.
*I don't get the problem with the pages being longer, I'd rather see that than having 3 battle rules written over 6 or 7 lines, that's way more of an hasle.
*I don't agree with CanvasK idea that some nod should be left untold, this is a wiki, its purpose is to archive everything relevant, nothing shoud be left untold.
That being said, another alternative just came to my mind: Maybe we should put the spirit trivia (battle inspiration and other points) in separate pages? Just a random thought, but maybe that could make it more digest.<br>
Sidenote: Templates are cool, I agree with it! Too bad we can have a database system that would allow to display spirits on several pages without having to duplicate the data. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 03:31, March 9, 2021 (EST)
:In regards to the length of pages I did some quick estimations with moving Inspirations out of the Spirit Battle table and turns out the page may be ''shorter'', however this took some assumptions. First assumption was every Battle row was the same height of 82px (64+row padding); not always true because of conditions, enemy fighters, and those plus screen size. Second assumption is the Inspiration table's rows would be strictly 5 lines tall (scrollbar could be used for more lines) which works out to also be roughly 82px. Third assumption was only factoring in Spirit Battles and ignoring possible trivia of other spirits, granted most spirits have battles so this isn't too big. Using the Others page as an example, it would be about 9000px shorter with these assumptions and would require either 103 more rows or 8 lines per row to exceed the current size.
:To humor the separate page idea, I think it would be best to have a single page. The current pages already have issues with quality control, we don't need 40 more. Maybe the single page can have different sections for each series. I, too, would like the nods to be mentioned, but the current system nor my previously proposed system would work nicely. A separate page or even your own system that you linked at the start would be much better for mentioning these references.
:On to what this specific section is about, templates (Ironic the proposals for organizing is the least organized). Since there is some traction with using templates I would like to hear opinions on the templates I linked above and maybe suggestions on other templates that could be made. There are some subtle changes, namely replacing the bullet point with a list format and italicizing the music.
:Sidenote: I did at one point propose a database-esque template that used a switch statement to add battles to pages. However around that time the wiki slowed to a crawl because the SSB4 to SSBU template broke due to a stray missing curly bracket. I withdrew the proposal because if that is what can happen with a 1MB template on 80 pages, imagine what would happen with a 0.6MB template on 150 pages... times 10 (or however many battles are on the page).<br>--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 09:52, March 9, 2021 (EST)
::The fact that I put my comment about the template as a sidenote was a sarcastic aknowledgement that we're going off road here. I don't have good enough of an understanding of the template feature to give a valuable opinion on your proposition, I've seen you working a lot with them during the past year, so I trust you to make the best of it. As for the off road topic, if moving the trivia points outside of the battle array actually make the pages shorter (which makes sense), that's another reason to do so (at the very least). [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:03, March 9, 2021 (EST)
:::Yeah, I put this in its own section so that the topics could be separate... didn't work it seems. I've said about everything I've wanted to say on the other topic(s). If I have anything to add I'll put in the appropriate section. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 14:14, March 9, 2021 (EST)
Since this has gained some support I went ahead and modified my Spirit Battle spreadsheet to convert everything to use the three templates listed above. I can work on changing everything over this weekend if no one objects. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:25, March 15, 2021 (EDT)
:I'd personally like to see how this plays out. [[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 12:05, March 17, 2021 (EDT)
::For some reason the templates aren't sitting right for me. I don't know if it is because I changed bullet-point lists to wiki lists, if the param names make it seem more cluttered, or something else. At this point I'm considering reverting everything with the amount of stress this is causing me. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 09:31, March 21, 2021 (EDT)
==Enhancable Spirit Effects in Inspiration Column==
Should we include the effects of the enhancable spirits in the base spirit's inspiration column? Like add in Skull Kid & Majora's Mask's Lifesteal effect inspiration in Skull Kid's Spirit Battle column? <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Autismo555|contribs]]) 10:30, March 19, 2021</small>
:I'm gonna say "no" since that has little to nothing to do with the battle. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:41, March 19, 2021 (EDT)
::How about this model, then? I took the liberty of adding in an Inspiration column in the Enhanceable Spirit columns. https://www.ssbwiki.com/User:Autismo555 [[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 12:28, March 19, 2021 (EDT)
I just took notice of this discussion, and that's another point toward "the inspirations need to be in a separate array from the battle". Now inspirations are added about stuffs that aren't battle related, there is no reason to limit the inspiration field only to the spirits featuring a battle. Plus those are long texts that would be easier on the eyes if widely span horizontaly rather than being cramped in a small column. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 02:53, June 21, 2021 (EDT)
== Breaking down the count a bit more...? ==
Fixing the MH misplacement, I realized that the numbers are starting to be a pain to check with the addition of DLC spirit boards from pre-existing series and free spirits for DLC series. I propose to break the numbers a bit more to separate the paid DLC spirits and the free DLC spirits, following this pattern: B+P(+F). The B (base) value would be mandatory for all series that aren't pure DLC, the +F value would be mandatory for all series that feature a DLC board (even when the value is 0), and the (+F) part would be optionnal. This is what it would look like for a few cherry picked series:
{|class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:center;"
!rowspan=3|Universe
!rowspan=2 colspan=3|[[Fighter spirit|Fighter]]
!colspan=12|[[Primary spirit|Primary]]
!rowspan=2 colspan=3|[[Support spirit|Support]]
!rowspan=2 colspan=3|[[Master spirit|Master]]
!rowspan=3 data-sort-type="number"|Base Game<br>Total
!rowspan=3 data-sort-type="number"|Paid DLC<br>Total
!rowspan=3 data-sort-type="number"|Free DLC<br>Total
!rowspan=3 data-sort-type="number"|Total
!rowspan=3|Lists of spirits<br>([[List of spirits (complete list)|complete list]])
|-
!colspan=3|{{SpiritType|Attack}}
!colspan=3|{{SpiritType|Shield}}
!colspan=3|{{SpiritType|Grab}}
!colspan=3|{{SpiritType|Neutral}}
|-
!data-sort-type="number" height="14px"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
!data-sort-type="number"|
|-
!style="text-align:left"|{{symbol|SMB|20px}} {{uv|Mario}}
|{{bg|#CCC}}|17
|{{bg|#CCC}}|
|{{bg|#CCC}}|(+1)
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|17
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|(+2)
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|13
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|(+2)
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|17
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|11
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|56
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|(+6)
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|2
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|
|133
|
|(+11)
|144
|align=left|[[List of spirits (Super Mario series)]]
|-
!style="text-align:left"|{{symbol|Xenoblade|20px}} {{uv|Xenoblade Chronicles}}
|{{bg|#CCC}}|1
|{{bg|#CCC}}|+2
|{{bg|#CCC}}|
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|5
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|+0
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|4
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|+1
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|2
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|+0
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|2
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|+2
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|8
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|+3
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|1
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|+0
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|
|23
| +8
|
|31
|align=left|[[List of spirits (Xenoblade Chronicles series)]]
|-
!style="text-align:left"|{{symbol|FF|20px}} {{uv|Final Fantasy}}
|{{bg|#CCC}}|2
|{{bg|#CCC}}|+1
|{{bg|#CCC}}|
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|0
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|+3
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|0
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|+1
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|0
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|+1
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|0
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|+2
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|0
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|+6
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|0
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|+0
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|
|2
| +14
|
|16
|align=left|[[List of spirits (Final Fantasy series)]]
|-
!style="text-align:left; color:initial;"|{{symbol|Persona|20px}} {{uv|Persona}} (DLC)
|{{bg|#CCC}}|
|{{bg|#CCC}}|+2
|{{bg|#CCC}}|
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|+2
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|+1
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|+2
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|+0
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|(+1)
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|+6
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|+0
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|
|
| +13
|(+1)
|14
|align=left|[[List of spirits (Persona series)]]
|-
!style="text-align:left; color:initial;"|{{symbol|ARMS|20px}} {{uv|ARMS}}
|{{bg|#CCC}}|0
|{{bg|#CCC}}|+1
|{{bg|#CCC}}|
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|1
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|+1
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|0
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|+1
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|1
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|+0
|{{bg|#3AC73A}}|
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|1
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|+1
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|2
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|+3
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|0
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|+0
|{{bg|#FFAB45}}|
|5
| +7
|
|12
|align=left|[[List of spirits (ARMS series)]]
|-
|}
[[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 03:14, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
:And now that I'm seeing it in a proper array format, I think the parenthesis aren't even useful. The Free DLC columns are pretty obvious on their own. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 03:32, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
:I wouldn't object to putting DLC in its own column, but I think differentiating between free and paid is a little much for a few reasons: 1) with so many columns it isn't 100% clear what they mean until you read the last ones, 2) table starts to get visibly big, especially if we decide to label the columns, 3) every DLC spirit can be gotten by going to the shop, so no need to pay for DLC, 4) what are Let's Go Pikachu/Eeevee, Tockles, and Sophia?; all can be gotten with external data (is buying other games "free DLC"?), LGP/E is free on the Spirit Board now, Tockles was data only but was added to the DLC Board ("free" -> "paid"?), Sophia will probably be the same.
:Also I think the Master column can be left alone. Only 2 more DLC Boards and the spirit's Style display is already a clean 3x5. Very unlikely to change. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 06:55, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
::Just to reply to a few points:
::*1) It's the same thing with the current A+B format. We simply need to update the explanation at the top of the page.
::*3) I litteraly didn't know that. Are you sure they aren't available in the shop only once you bought the DLC? That would seem very backward otherwise...
::*4) Free for the ones who end up in the regular board, I would say free for Tockles and Sophia too, but it's arguable. Doesn't Tockles shows in the regular SB too?
::[[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 09:25, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
:::1)With only two series that could have anything in all three (Persona and Dragon Quest), having three columns for everything is a little excessive. Two is more reasonable in my opinion. 3)Yup. I spent a week or two on a fresh, DLC-less file getting spirits via the shop only and got every DLC spirit. I can't show my spreadsheet because I'm currently on mobile and it has a chronic case of "legible only to me". I do have a small list at the bottom of my userpage, though. 4)I don't recall if Tockles is on the normal board. May be listed in my spreadsheet, but again on mobile right now. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:28, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
::::I get your point about this being "too much". However, I feel the need to point out that it's not only useful for P5 and DQ. Having a series with [8| |+2] rather than [8|+2| ] is meaningful by itself, it sets appart series that have Fighter Pass content from series than just got a lot of spirits through events. Some series got more event spirits (Mario got 11) than some got FP spirit (Fatal Fury only got 5) after all. Looking at the array as it is now, you could think that FE and XC simply got many spirit events like Mario (and Arms isn't even tagged as a DLC series while technically being one). And if we were to fill the whole array, that would be bloated, true, but the idea is rather to let empty spaces when the column is not relevant to the series (the prototype above isn't that big). I'm also fine by the way with the dual columns for the current data, but that's not the point of the discussion (I wouldn't have started one for a mere cosmetic change). [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 12:21, June 16, 2021 (EDT)
Thinking more about it, there are other spirits that make the line very blurry between a spirit being part of a Paid DLC or not, like Rex enhanced version (Rex is in the DLC spirit board, but he was already available in the base game, so what does that make his enhanced version? I don't even know if it's possible or not to enhance Rex without buying Pyra/Mythra...). I'm gonna simple rework the page to make it more readable using the columns system I showed here, but simply with 2 columns (except for the Master spirits), I'll keep the idea to put "0" when the data is relevant to the series and let an empty space when it's not. I'm gonna rework a few other things (I don't know if it makes sense to keep the total above the array since a line has been added for that at the bottom of the array now, I will let it be for now, but I think we should get rid of it). I will also remove the (DLC) parenthesis on the univers, because Arms kinda screwed up the idea that univers are either DLC or not, and the new format will make it easy to see if a series is brand new or not. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 13:30, June 20, 2021 (EDT)
:And on a sidenote, I only bought the Fighter Pass 2 yesterday (I trust Nintendo, but I don't want them to know I do, so I don't buy a DLC before most its content is known). Which means I was able to check and the spirits that come with a DLC fighter are indeed available in the in-game shop before buying the DLC. I think I can safely assume that I could have enhanced Rex already. The only thing that, while technically being outside of the DLC spirit board, still can't be accessed until buying the corresponding DLC is the ability to rematch spirits that aren't DLC but whose battle is (namely, Poppi, Ribbon Girl and Ninjara). [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 13:52, June 20, 2021 (EDT)
Should we start this new third column with an "=" just like we started the second one with a "+"? [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 02:39, July 19, 2021 (EDT)
:I think it would be enough to just put "+" and "=" as the header and not put them in the cells. It doesn't take up much space and should be easily understandable. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 04:46, July 19, 2021 (EDT)
::It so confusing now  that it's not even as easy to understand as the original. I think only Base and Total are enough in terms of function.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 14:43, July 19, 2021 (EDT)
:::Problem is keeping Base and Total is removing Addition, which is actually the most self explanatory column. If you read "12 +3" you get it easily, if you read "12 15" not so much, that's the reason why I asked if we should add an "=", because after the addition of that new column, "12 +3 =15" would seem a bit easier to get than "12 +3 15", even if you can quickly realize that the last number is always the sum of the first two ones. If we were to remove a column, I think it would be better to go back to the version without the per type total columns, just keeping "Base +Add". [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 16:10, July 19, 2021 (EDT)
{|class="wikitable sortable" style="text-align:center;"
!rowspan=2|Universe
!rowspan=1 colspan=2|[[Fighter spirit|Fighter]]
!colspan=2|{{SpiritType|Attack}}[[Primary spirit|Primary]]
!colspan=2|{{SpiritType|Shield}}[[Primary spirit|Primary]]
!colspan=2|{{SpiritType|Grab}}[[Primary spirit|Primary]]
!colspan=2|{{SpiritType|Neutral}}[[Primary spirit|Primary]]
!colspan=2|{{SpiritType|Support}}[[Support spirit|Support]]
!rowspan=2|[[Master spirit|Master]]
!rowspan=2 data-sort-type="number"|Base Total
!rowspan=2 data-sort-type="number"|Full Total
!rowspan=2|Lists of spirits<br>([[List of spirits (complete list)|complete list]])
|-
!data-sort-type="number"|Base
!data-sort-type="number"|Total
!data-sort-type="number"|Base
!data-sort-type="number"|Total
!data-sort-type="number"|Base
!data-sort-type="number"|Total
!data-sort-type="number"|Base
!data-sort-type="number"|Total
!data-sort-type="number"|Base
!data-sort-type="number"|Total
!data-sort-type="number"|Base
!data-sort-type="number"|Total
|-
!style="text-align:left"|{{symbol|SMB|20px}} {{uv|Mario}}
|{{bg|#CCC}}|17
!{{bg|#CCC}}|18
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|17
!{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|19
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|13
!{{bg|#35B6F1}}|15
!{{bg|#3AC73A}} colspan=2|17
!{{bg|#A783B0}} colspan=2|11
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|56
!{{bg|#A5B36A}}|62
!{{bg|#FFAB45}}|2
|133
!144
|align=left|[[List of spirits (Super Mario series)]]
|-
!style="text-align:left"|{{symbol|ARMS|20px}} {{uv|ARMS}}
|{{bg|#CCC}}|0
!{{bg|#CCC}}|1
|{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|1
!{{bg|#FF8C8C}}|2
|{{bg|#35B6F1}}|0
!{{bg|#35B6F1}}|1
!{{bg|#3AC73A}} colspan=2|1
|{{bg|#A783B0}}|1
!{{bg|#A783B0}}|2
|{{bg|#A5B36A}}|2
!{{bg|#A5B36A}}|5
!{{bg|#FFAB45}}|0
|5
!12
|align=left|[[List of spirits (ARMS series)]]
|}
:I think that's enough.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 06:04, July 20, 2021 (EDT)
== Reduce Spirit Battle list ==
Since the inspiration makes the list too wide, I recommend merging these parts to reduce the width:
*Merge image and name, the sorting results of both are exactly the same.
*Merge rules and conditions, almost nobody uses sorting on them. Or merge stage and rules, I don't know which one is better.
*Technically the Spirit Battle list doesn't need number as it won't be displayed in the game, although it does help people find.
See the {{s|SmashWiki|Sandbox}}.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 03:33, February 11, 2024 (EST)
:I don't know about the layout. The image column seems too cramped to fit in the name of the spirits, even for long named spirits. And merging the other columns would leave a wide gape in the inspirations column.[[User:Autismo555|Autismo555]] ([[User talk:Autismo555|talk]]) 13:19, February 11, 2024 (EST)
:Not a fan of the idea.
:#We don't do this anywhere else to my knowledge and is not intuitive to readers.
:#Don't care much for the idea, especially with the conditions taking up the least amount of space already. Second idea I'll say no to since stages and conditions are two completely different things.
:#It is still useful for the Collection, quick lookup, and being a reliable piece of data to sort by.
:The overall suggestion also gives way too much space to the inspirations; nearly 53% of the width on a 1920x1080 monitor is now dedicated to, in my opinion, useless information. And this still wouldn't solve the real problem that has been talked about for years: the tables are near useless on small screens because the inspiration stretches the entire row vertically. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 17:09, February 11, 2024 (EST)
::Yes, this is a compromise that at least slightly improves the problem. I'm curious why the above scheme is not implemented, it seems to work fine.
::The first point is just a matter of habit, and people adapt quickly. Additionally the rules can be considered part of the stage setting, which is indeed the case in the game.
::Also, primary spirits listlist seems to have this problem too. Is it possible to merge base and max statistics?
::--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 02:30, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:::It does not improve the problem because the inspirations are still a monolith. Great you can scroll horizontally to the left less but you still have to scroll vertically an unnecessary amount just to see the spirits type; if you're reading the inspiration and want to check the data, you still have at least a 50% chance to scroll left and be met with blank space.
:::A reasonable habit that we shouldn't break; we shouldn't expect readers to relearn something that goes against 99% of tables they encounter.
:::No; 1, it is not that crowded and you don't get lost scrolling when on smaller screens. 2, you cannot sort in a way that allows you to find the absolute minimum and the absolute maximum with a range--that is, you can't find the lowest lvl 1 stat and the highest lvl 99 stat reliably with sorting, same deal with max lvl 1 and min lvl 99. 3, we dealt with a [[Special:PermanentLink/1385203|similar deal in the past]] and no one liked it. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 04:34, February 12, 2024 (EST)
::::How about this {{s|SmashWiki|Sandbox}}, hiding it is the only way I can think of.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 05:03, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:::::You should link to the specific Sandbox edits, because when the Sandbox is inevitably cleared people won't see your edits. Collapsible elements have been tried and do not work on mobile. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 05:21, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:So, I guess the only way to separate spirit battles and inspiration, and give they its own page.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 05:48, February 12, 2024 (EST)
::Cue to the huge thing I wrote 3 years ago right at the top of this talk page: I still think that the "inspiration" should be a separate array. We could have a first array with the all the spirits of the series for the "history" data (series, origin game, artwork source), then a separate array for each spirit category with focus ont their "gameplay" data (type, stats, effects, ...), then a spirit battle array with all the battle data, and finally the inspiration array. Having an "inspiration" array outside of the battle one will also allow spirits without a battle to still have relevant inspiration bullet points for their category type, or effect (like how a JRPG priest could be a support spirit with a healing effect because that's what they do in their own game). [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 07:41, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:::What the end result would look like is still in my [[User:YoshiRyu/Sandbox|sandbox]] by the way. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 07:44, February 12, 2024 (EST)
::::Yes I noticed the discussion at the top and that's why I posted this here, surprisingly the issue still hasn't improved until now.  However, since separating these would make the other universe page too large, it would be necessary to put the mental battles and inspiration on separate page.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 10:25, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:::As time goes on the more I'm leaning towards something like that and moving "inspirations" over to something like <nowiki>[[List of spirits (Super Mario series)/Spirit trivia]]</nowiki>. It would be a simple solution that expands the scope with the only real downside being that the info is disconnected, but that effectively already happens on mobile. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 07:47, February 12, 2024 (EST)
::::I mean move spirit battles and inspiration together to other pages like <nowiki>[[List of Spirit Battles (Super Mario series)]]</nowiki>. Since 80% of inspiration is about spirit battles and not the spirits themselves, and spirit battles list also has image and type, so readers don't need to look at other lists.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 09:17, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:::::Your solution to the gigantic inspiration stuff is to not do anything with it and just hide it? The idea of splitting just the inspiration is that we can make it more than just spirit battle trivia, unlike now where non-battle trivia is awkwardly grafted on. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:13, February 12, 2024 (EST)
::::::I mean do both, separate spirit battles and inspiration, but still putting inspiration on the same page of spirit battles. --[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 10:32, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:::::::The spirit battle tables would look perfectly fine if just the inspiration was removed. They are about in-game data while the inspirations aren't so the battles are better off on the main page. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 10:52, February 12, 2024 (EST)
::::::::Since [[Summon]] and [[Enhanceable spirit]] have their own pages, there seems to be very little trivia left that isn't related to battles. Since 80% of the inspiration is about spirit battles, I thought it would be more convenient to put them together. --[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 11:08, February 12, 2024 (EST)
<small>(reset indent)</small> There's still spirits unrepresented on any list. And I'd argue that we should remove those trivia columns too. To my knowledge it was added without consensus. It would make those pages look nicer and unify the trivia into one spot, and make it possible to report on spirits that don't fall under the 3 sections. Kill 3+ birds with 1 stone. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 11:22, February 12, 2024 (EST)
:Other trivia is mainly type, abilitie, and the world of light, I think these are still of reference value. Maybe can add a new header part. It can accommodate if the inspiration is a separate list.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 11:55, February 12, 2024 (EST)
== Proposal ==
Please see [[Forum:General proposals]] and PLEASE FIX THE TABLES. They have been ugly for WAY too long, we have to do something about this. [[User:Shadow2|Shadow2]] ([[User talk:Shadow2|talk]]) 17:44, July 11, 2024 (EDT)

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