Editing Talk:Lion

==Merge==

I '''oppose''', on the ground that it could very well be a decent article; just because it's short doesn't make it irrelavant.  What makes it noteworthy is Flat Zone 2, not the side tilt. [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="slategray">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="slategray">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:09, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

This should be merged with Flat Zone 2.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 23:11, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

[[Game and Watch (universe)]] says this is also a sticker. If it was mentioned, then it would be good enough to merit it's own article. <font face="verdana">[[User:Baltro|<span style="color:red">'''B<small>AL</small>τʀο'''</span>]]</font> <small>[ [[User talk:Baltro|<span style="color:orangered">'''talk'''</span>]] ]</small> 23:12, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:I agree with Baltro on his point here. [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="slategray">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="slategray">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:13, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::The thing is, stickers don't warrant articles.  We're not gonna have an article on the "Fat Hockey Player" are we?  Of course not.  What'll save this article in my mind is if other stage hazards have articles.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 23:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:And yet, totally random trophies have their own article. I say that if this is indeed a sticker, stage hazard, and move, it needs an article. <font face="verdana">[[User:Baltro|<span style="color:red">'''B<small>AL</small>τʀο'''</span>]]</font> <small>[ [[User talk:Baltro|<span style="color:orangered">'''talk'''</span>]] ]</small> 23:16, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::I meant what Baltro just said.  [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="slategray">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="slategray">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:19, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:Okay, I took off the merge tag. Shall we begin working? <font face="verdana">[[User:Baltro|<span style="color:red">'''B<small>AL</small>τʀο'''</span>]]</font> <small>[ [[User talk:Baltro|<span style="color:orangered">'''talk'''</span>]] ]</small> 23:21, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::I'm busy right now, but yeah, go ahead! [[Special:Watchlist|I'll keep an eye out]]. [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="slategray">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="slategray">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:23, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::EDIT CONFLICT: (most) Trophies warrant articles.  I'm surprised the Fish from The Summit doesn't have an article, though.  Stickers don't usually get articles unless they are really important. '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 23:24, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::::No trophy for the Fish, no article of its own; the same logic went for the Ultimate Chimera and the Support Ghost.  Anyhow, this is the source for a stage element, sticker and a character's move, thus: '''''NOTEWORTHY'''''. [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="slategray">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="slategray">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:27, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::Miles could not have said it better. <font face="verdana">[[User:Baltro|<span style="color:red">'''B<small>AL</small>τʀο'''</span>]]</font> <small>[ [[User talk:Baltro|<span style="color:orangered">'''talk'''</span>]] ]</small> 23:29, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::No, the thing that makes this noteworthy is that the other 3 parts of that stage all have articles (of course, they're actual special moves).  We should add  parts to those articles explaining their role in the stage.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 23:31, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Agreed. But still people, slow down with the edit conflicts on the page. Is it a "side strong" or a forward tilt? I also gave it two seperate headers for Melee and Brawl. <font face="verdana">[[User:Baltro|<span style="color:red">'''B<small>AL</small>τʀο'''</span>]]</font> <small>[ [[User talk:Baltro|<span style="color:orangered">'''talk'''</span>]] ]</small> 23:35, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Can we all just stop undoing each others edits and just compromise on what the page should look like? <font face="verdana">[[User:Baltro|<span style="color:red">'''B<small>AL</small>τʀο'''</span>]]</font> <small>[ [[User talk:Baltro|<span style="color:orangered">'''talk'''</span>]] ]</small> 23:39, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
:The melee and brawl separation thing wasn't necessary there.  I just pointed that Flat Zone 2 is exclusive to brawl.  You made it sound like Lion was G&W's F-tlit in melee only!  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 23:40, 13 December 2008 (UTC)
::I was going to correct my mistake, but 12 edit conflicts made me give up. <font face="verdana">[[User:Baltro|<span style="color:red">'''B<small>AL</small>τʀο'''</span>]]</font> <small>[ [[User talk:Baltro|<span style="color:orangered">'''talk'''</span>]] ]</small> 23:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

==Overhaul==

I've re-vamped the page, focusing on the stage and mentioning the move and sticker in the beginning.  I feel that this layout fits the article's needs better.  If someone does rollback, please at least keep some of the material I've contributed (I'm only trying to help!)--[[User:Meta-K|Meta-Kirb]] ([[User talk:Meta-K|talk]]) 00:24, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

== Merge (2) ==

Since the old discussion was from 7 years ago I figured a new one was in order. Currently, the only games for which an article is deemed appropriate (See [[SW:CREATE#What makes a good, notable article]]) are Smash games and masterpieces, so this page stands out as an exception. Other three Game & Watch games technically have articles, but they are actually about Mr. Game & Watch's special moves. If this is kept standalone I guess Helmet should also receive a page, but I personally think a merge would be more appropriate due to its low relevance. This would also match how non-masterpiece games are treated in the universe pages. -[[User:Menshay|Menshay]] ([[User talk:Menshay|talk]]) 05:59, 18 November 2015 (EST)
:'''Merge and redirect to Flat Zone 2'''. Anything on this page can probably be covered in the origin section for that page. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 22:06, 23 January 2016 (EST)
::There's also [[Super Lion 4]] though. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:09, 23 January 2016 (EST)
:::'''Support to get rid of it as its own page; whether it's deleted, redirected, or disambigged idrc''' <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  22:25, 23 January 2016 (EST)
:::<s>'''Decidedly neutral''': On one hand, this page sticks out because it is the only G&W game without move representation. On the other, it is a stage element...here is a brief list of stage elements that have pages only because they are stage elements: [[Fish]], [[F-Zero Racers]], [[Ultimate Chimera]], [[5-Volt]], [[Peckish Aristocrab]], [[Shellcreeper]], [[Sidestepper]], [[Pidgit]], [[Birdo]], [[Shy Guy]]. But then also, those are all stage ''hazards'' while this is more of a stage ''transformation'' or ''phase''. In short, I am not really sure what I think about this.</s> <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:37, 23 January 2016 (EST)
::::Do we have a page on Rock Candy Mines? World 1-2 from SMB?
::::Stage locations are merged with the stage. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  22:42, 23 January 2016 (EST)
:::::I understand that, but I am still unsure. Also I have thought about world 1-2 and I have often wondered if that should get a separate page. It's a completely different stage, after all. Not the place to argue about it though. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:49, 23 January 2016 (EST)

I still kind of made a good point seven years ago (wow that's weird to think about), that this covers just enough in terms of content to warrant a page. I guess I'd say '''weak oppose''' to deletion. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:58, 23 January 2016 (EST)
:Also, the only other acceptable result other than retaining this as-is would be converting it to a disambig, since there's the forward tilt and the sticker to mention, not just the stage. (Not to mention Lion's part of Flat Zone X, not just 2.) [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 23:08, 23 January 2016 (EST)
::Plus that tournament I mentioned earlier. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 23:08, 23 January 2016 (EST)
:::'''Oppose''' I'd say that Flat Zone 2/X isn't quite the same as Mushroomy Kingdom and the like. It's more similar to the way [[Odin]] and [[Ramuh]] change [[Midgar]]'s shape. While the Lion game isn't "causing" the change like Odin or Ramuh, it provides a different platform layout and stage hazards. And by this argument I would support creating a Helmet article, too, for consistency. [[User:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:red">Scizor</span>]][[User_talk:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:gray">Steelix</span>]] 23:18, 23 January 2016 (EST)

...none of the oppose arguments make sense to me. I mean, this page is the only page of its kind - it's a non-notable move, a trophy/sticker, and a stage "location". We don't have pages on that. We have [[Lightning Kick]] (a notable move) and [[Wii Balance Board]] (a trophy/sticker and stage platform), but those have nothing in common with Lion. All of this can be put on the page for Flat Zone 2/X. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  23:20, 23 January 2016 (EST)

:'''Support.''' Lion could be argued to be about as important as the Wii Balance Board: both have trophies and affect one stage in some way. In fact, Lion could be considered even more important, since it also has a sticker and a move representing it as well. However, Wii Balance Board is a character, and Lion is a game. We have articles for pretty much every important character (even Smash Tour items for God's sake!), but the same can't be said for games. Plus, we don't have articles for Fire, Parachute, Judge, Chef and Oil Panic. Yes, we have articles for the special moves based on them, but not the games themselves. The games are only mentioned in the respective origin sections. If the games that are the basis for Mr. Game & Watch's special moves don't deserve articles for them, then this one doesn't either. [[File:TepigSprite.png]][[User:Tepig|Tepig]] ([[User talk:Tepig|talk]]) 11:48, 24 January 2016 (EST)
:: how about we make a page that documents all of the mgw games represented in the flat zone stages? [[User:Nintendofan1653|<font color="red">'''Nintendofan1653'''</font>]] ''([[User talk:Nintendofan1653#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' EZMONEY!! 12:43, 24 January 2016 (EST)
:::...We could just use [[Flat Zone 2]]/[[Flat Zone X]] or {{uv|Game & Watch}} for that. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  12:46, 24 January 2016 (EST)
::::That's not necesary though, we already have the universe pages for each separate universe, and they list all games in a certain series that are represented in Smash. The [[Game & Watch (universe)]] page already has all that information. [[File:TepigSprite.png]][[User:Tepig|Tepig]] ([[User talk:Tepig|talk]]) 15:59, 24 January 2016 (EST)
:::::'''Neutral, leaning toward oppose''' per Serpent's explanation. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 17:28, 30 January 2016 (EST)
::::::'''Oppose''' Don't merge it. As Serpent said, it's a stage element. However, unlike what he said, it is kind of a hazard (guys with chairs knock you back) so I find it reasonable to keep. [[User:SuneEnough|~SuneEnough]] ([[User talk:SuneEnough|talk]]) 12:05, 4 February 2016 (EST)

I move to '''oppose'''. If we have pages on special kinds of platforms (like [[Pidgit]] and [[Wii Balance Board]]), then why not full stage transformations? I will most likely be suggesting a split of Mushroomy Kingdom (for Rock Candy Mines) in the future. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:04, 4 February 2016 (EST)

Yeah,big time '''neutral''' here. Both sides have great points. [[User talk:Penro|Please leave a message for]] [[User:Penro|'''Penro''']] [[User talk:Penro|when you see something wrong I did.]] [[File:PenroDarkPitHead.png|19px]] [[File:PenroZSSHead.png|19px]] 21:08, 4 February 2016 (EST)
:Changing to '''oppose'''. Despite its rather peculiar presence on the site, it's a pretty well-written article, and parroting Serpent, pages revolving around stage transformations would be a pretty good addition to the wiki in general (I can think of a couple off the top of my head right now that I'd love to see get their own articles). [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 21:49, 4 February 2016 (EST)
::I think if we did pages for transformations it would just get confusing. I mean, first of all it's already weird to have to go to a bunch of different pages to find out information on the one stage (or redundant if we keep all of the information on the main page). And secondly, where do we draw the line? I mean, Super Mario Maker technically has transformations that just don't change the layout. So we only do stuff that changes the layout? Well, Super Mario Maker also has different layouts - which, while with larger gaps, functions nearly identically to World 1-1 vs. World 1-2. So yeah, I'd big-time oppose any of that splitting proposals. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  21:55, 4 February 2016 (EST)
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 :Changing to '''oppose'''. Despite its rather peculiar presence on the site, it's a pretty well-written article, and parroting Serpent, pages revolving around stage transformations would be a pretty good addition to the wiki in general (I can think of a couple off the top of my head right now that I'd love to see get their own articles). [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 21:49, 4 February 2016 (EST)
 ::I think if we did pages for transformations it would just get confusing. I mean, first of all it's already weird to have to go to a bunch of different pages to find out information on the one stage (or redundant if we keep all of the information on the main page). And secondly, where do we draw the line? I mean, Super Mario Maker technically has transformations that just don't change the layout. So we only do stuff that changes the layout? Well, Super Mario Maker also has different layouts - which, while with larger gaps, functions nearly identically to World 1-1 vs. World 1-2. So yeah, I'd big-time oppose any of that splitting proposals. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  21:55, 4 February 2016 (EST)
-:::Stage transformations don't warrant their own articles generally. This one (barely) does because it's got more to it than that with the move, sticker and trophy involved. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:59, 4 February 2016 (EST)
-::::If it has a trophy, why isn't it listed on the article yet as with other trophies? [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 22:00, 4 February 2016 (EST)
-:::::Because other than tagging it for this discussion, it's only been edited once in the last 3 years? The trophy is [[List of SSB4 trophies (Game & Watch series)#Lion|in SSB4]]. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:03, 4 February 2016 (EST)
-::::::Huh, well in that case, depending on how things turn out with this page, I'll add the trophy to it. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 22:04, 4 February 2016 (EST)
-Serpent made a good point, so I'm changing my vote to '''oppose'''. [[File:TepigSprite.png]][[User:Tepig|Tepig]] ([[User talk:Tepig|talk]]) 22:07, 4 February 2016 (EST)
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