Editing Talk:Kongo Falls

Its a stage in Melee! Why is it up for deletion?

It's not up for deletion - the Template:Home stages template used on it is, however. Also, sign your comments with four tildes. (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>) &ndash; [[User:EPX2|<b><i>EP</i></b>]] <small>([[User talk:EPX2|Talk]] &bull; [[Special:Contributions/EPX2|Edits]])</small> 19:39, December 17, 2007 (EST)

== Tournament legal? ==

[[Tournament legal (SSBM)|This implies it is]].  [[Banned stage|This implies it isn't]].  Which is it? [[User:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="khaki">([[User talk:Miles.oppenheimer|<font color="khaki">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:17, October 3, 2009 (UTC)

== Proposed moves... ==

After a disagreement from [[User:Miles of SmashWiki]], who said that I should have discussed things first, I figured I'd take this to a vote to see what people think.

Basically, I want to move the ''Melee'' version of Kongo Jungle - currently this page - to [[Kongo Jungle (SSBM)]], while the N64 one goes to [[Kongo Jungle (SSB)]] rather than the [[Congo Jungle]] page it is now. My reason is that it's more consistent this way: the N64's "Congo" is a mistranslation, made obvious when it was fixed when it was brought back in ''Melee'' and matched the name of the new stage. Right now, when talking about the same stage between Melee and N64's navigation (like their stage navboxes or the [[Stages]] page), we have to refer to it by two different spellings depending on what game the page or template is primarily about. I say we simply make a note that the N64 stage was misspelled as "Congo" in the original version on its page and rename its page to match the current "Kongo" spelling.

This would also match the precedent set by [[Final Destination (SSB)]] and [[Battlefield (SSB)]], which weren't actually called that in the original game but named as such for consistency's sake, with a note of what they were named as in-game. [[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 21:34, 20 April 2014 (EDT)
:As I stated on my talkpage, I '''oppose''' the move.
:*For starters, "Final Destination" in SSB64 is nearly official, since its Japanese name matches the later games and there is no official English name; "Battlefield" is used over "Duel Zone" as an artifact of the fact that it lacks an English name and that the successors of the same layout in every game since have had consistent English names.
:*Second, these two stages are different in both name and layout, unlike the FD/Battlefield variants which are visual redesigns of the same platform layout.
:*Third, the most recent game's nomenclature is not necessarily definitive; note that the Melee stage's song was retitled to "Kong Jungle" in Brawl. Probably a typo, but still.
:*Fourth, for the sake of convenience, it's simpler to have the two as distinct titles.
:Those are my thoughts, anyway. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:41, 20 April 2014 (EDT)
:Oh, I guess I should actually put my vote in: '''support.''' I'd also argue that it's not necessarily the most recent game overriding a previous one as what's considered definitive, but what the intention seems to be despite the typo. [[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 21:49, 20 April 2014 (EDT)

'''Oppose.''' Mistranslated or not, "Congo" is what it's called, and in my opinion we shouldn't be using retcons for names if there's an established same-name thing in the way. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Riotous 22:21, 20 April 2014 (EDT)
:But it's also called "Kongo" as well in ''Melee''. [[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 23:52, 20 April 2014 (EDT)
::It's called "Kongo" ''only'' in Melee. In SSB64 it has a distinct title. Why force the pages to use the same name when we have distinct names already? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 00:29, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
:::Consistency's sake. As said earlier, right now we have to refer to the N64 stage as either "Kongo" or "Congo" depending on whether or not we're talking about it in either the original or its reappearance in ''Melee'', such as the navboxes. I figure it'll be better in the long run if we just refer to it as Kongo across the board. [[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 13:56, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
::::Your primary argument seems to be that "we have to refer to it by two different spellings depending on what game the page or template is primarily about". How is this a problem as opposed to common sense? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Ghostbuster 14:18, 21 April 2014 (EDT)
:::::I guess it just makes more sense to me to keep the spelling the same across the wiki, and it would be more concise to use game names to differentiate the versions rather than a different spelling, especially with things like the <nowiki>{{SSB|x}} and {{SSBM|x}}</nowiki> shortcuts. Plus, as Miles said above in reference to Final Destination with how FD64's name matches the later games in Japanese as reason for retroactively calling it that, Kongo Jungle 64 matches its Melee counterpart in the Japanese, even in the original game. I just think it'd be easier on our filing system in the long run, especially should the wiki ever branch out to other languages. [[User:VinLAURiA|VinLAURiA]] ([[User talk:VinLAURiA|talk]]) 23:36, 21 April 2014 (EDT)

==Move to [[Kongo Falls]] or Redirect?==
It appears that in the "Stages" portion of the E3 reveal, this stage has been renamed to "Kongo Falls". [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 14:31, 12 June 2018 (EDT)
:I really don't know about this one. We moved "Congo Jungle" to "Kongo Jungle (SSB)" to match the newer name, but this is a lot bigger a rename than a spelling correction. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Cloronic 14:49, 12 June 2018 (EDT)
::Though I think it's a slightly better idea to move it, we may want to wait and see which name sticks among the community. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 15:01, 12 June 2018 (EDT)
:::Melee is more well known by the community, so I think it's fine if we just make a redirect. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 15:13, 12 June 2018 (EDT)
::::I'm thinking most recent name is the better choice. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 15:31, 12 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::I also agree that the newer name would be better as it is more "up to date" canonically, and though we're not canon I feel a name change of a stage is significant enough to merit a move. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 16:46, 12 June 2018 (EDT)
::::::We have the past case of [[Rainbow Cruise]], where the PAL versions of both ''Melee'' and ''Brawl'' corrected the mistranslation and named it Rainbow Ride, but our page has been stable at the "outdated" NTSC name for twelve years. At the very least, the RC/RR situation shows that we should wait for the release of the game before considering a move. [[User:Bwburke94|Bwburke94]] ([[User talk:Bwburke94|talk]]) 20:59, 12 June 2018 (EDT)
:::::::''While the Western localization version of the Super Mario 64 stage's name is "Rainbow Ride," the original Japanese version's is "Rainbow Cruise."''
:::::::For that we've just gone with what the NTSC version of Smash calls it, since the wiki is based in America. Nothing to do with a mistranslation. I do agree that the move should wait though. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 16:15, 13 June 2018 (EDT)
<small>(reset indent)</small> I feel that Kongo Falls separates it from Kongo Jungle, where we can delete the disambig page and say "these stages are two different things, they used to share a name but now they don't." (That said, I wonder if the name change means Kongo 64 is back...) [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 09:50, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
:Is this the first time a returning stage has been renamed? I'm in agreement on using Kongo Falls to both reflect its latest name and remove the disambig page. It doesn't necessarily require much of a name change if we keep Kongo Jungle (SSBM) as a redirect when talking about ''Melee''; Kongo Falls applies when talking about its ''Ultimate'' incarnation and the stage in general. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 16:24, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
::If you want to be technical, no; Kongo 64 was named "Congo Jungle" in the original Smash, but was renamed Kongo in all subsequent appearances. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:18, 17 June 2018 (EDT)
Let's make this a proper proposal. I vote for '''make a redirect'''. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 22:57, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
:I'll restate my vote to '''move to Kongo Falls'''. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 23:18, 23 June 2018 (EDT)
:Restate vote to '''move to Kongo Falls'''. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 01:12, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
:'''Move to Kongo Falls'''. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:14, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
I suggest we wait on the game to come out first. We have to consider that the stage isn't just a simple port like in past titles, it's completely remastered. Although it is effectively the same stage, we don't know if certain changes were made to differentiate it from Melee. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 02:55, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

Final decision is '''Wait until the game comes out, then move to ''Kongo Falls'' if nothing silly happens'''. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:31, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
:I [https://giphy.com/gifs/cheezburger-video-games-videogame-w6MNHOoLEzBVm object] to that 'final decision'. What new information could we possibly get from this point onward regarding this stage? I see no reason to make a decision on what to do now.<br>At the very least, why don't we '''make a redirect now'''? We can always move the page over it later if need be, and as long as nobody plays with it, anybody can do it. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 19:38, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
::Yes redirect should be made now. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:42, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
::I think it should be a redirect. [[User:George Jones|George Jones]] ([[User talk:George Jones|talk]]) 00:14, 27 June 2018 (EDT)
I would like to add that the official website's blog also names the stage as "[https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/blog/index.html?category=cat11_stage Kongo Falls]" (and even the Japanese name has been changed from "Kongo Jungle", and is now called "Raft and Waterdfall" instead, though how relevant that is to us is up for debate). Judging by the description, the images provided, and the short video clips seen from the E3 Direct, it appears that the stage is unchanged with the exception of a graphical update and a name change. As such, the evidence is lacking that any drastic changes will be made to this stage. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 13:45, 4 July 2018 (EDT)

Agreed with SK; wait to move. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 02:32, 5 July 2018 (EDT)
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 Agreed with SK; wait to move. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 02:32, 5 July 2018 (EDT)
-At this point it is undeniable that the stage uses the name Kongo Falls in ''Smash Ultimate''. The only reason not to start using this name is the decision to permanently use the ''Melee'' name in respect to its original title - as the above discussion revealed that we're largely in agreement of changing to Kongo Falls if that proves to be the name in ''Ultimate'', I say there's no time like the present. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 12:10, 8 July 2018 (EDT)
-:From what I've counted, the tally as of now is:
-:'''Move''': 4
-:'''Wait to move''': 2
-:'''Wait''': 3
-:'''Redirect''': 3
-:'''Undecided''': 1
-:So, it doesn't appear consensus has been reached yet (even if you count "Wait to move" as "Move"). '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 12:40, 9 July 2018 (EDT)
-::...Are "wait" and "wait to move" not the same...? [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 12:44, 9 July 2018 (EDT)
-:::Not necessarily. I put SK and Miles as "wait to move"; they want it moved, but also want to wait until after the game is released. For "wait" I put: Nyargleblargle since, though he supports a move, he wants to see what the community calls it first and go by that; Bwburke94 to see what the stage ends up being called after release; and Pokebub for his concern on how different this stage could potentially be from the original (which, to me, seemed to imply a new article). '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 12:53, 9 July 2018 (EDT)
-::::Um... [[SW:CONSENSUS|A consensus being reached]] is not explicitly decided by vote counts. <s>The administrators still get the final say.</s> [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 20:50, 9 July 2018 (EDT)
-:::::[[SmashWiki:Administrators#Administrators are not kings|Administrators are not kings]]. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 22:59, 9 July 2018 (EDT)
-::::::Sorry, I forgot for a moment that this isn't a Discord server. That said, a consensus is still not explicitly decided by vote counts. While the vast majority of decisions get reached based on vote counts, there are a bunch of other variables at play, including the strength of the different arguments presented, as well as the credibility of various members and the points they present. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|'''Furry Nation''']]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 00:50, 10 July 2018 (EDT)
-<small>(reset indent)</small> A consensus is different from a majority; if there's enough break between the winning vote and the rest of the options, then consensus has been reached. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:19, 10 July 2018 (EDT)
-Listen guys hold on a minute here. Let's just do this: Any move/stage/anything that may require a split/move as a result of the new game, we should really wait until release so we can be sure of what we are talking about. It's important to remember that what we've seen so far is NOT A RELEASE VERSION, and it shouldn't be treated as such. Any aspect of the game we know can be changed in any way, so trying to come up with stuff like this is a giant waste of time. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:22, 15 July 2018 (EDT)
-<s>How do I do this?</s> I'm voting to wait. The name may change back upon release, we can't be certain. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 18:36, 15 July 2018 (EDT)
-I'm voting to '''move to Kongo Falls''' <s>if this is still open</s>. This stage is clearly Melee's Kongo Falls, and the two should share a page; this is consistent with both versions of Wily Castle and both versions of Gaur Plain sharing pages, despite the fact that the stages are not the same. There's also no precedent of late name changes (especially those that've been highlighted), so we shouldn't blindly assume bad faith. [[User:AmoongussForLife|<span style="color:green">AmoongussForLife</span>]] [[File:AmoongussForLife's_signature.png]][[User_talk:AmoongussForLife|<span style="color:purple">Talk</span>]] 14:30, 22 July 2018 (EDT)
-If this is still open, put my vote in to '''move to Kongo Falls'' for reasons that other people have said better than I could. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:39, 25 July 2018 (EDT)
-It seems pretty clear that this is what the stage will be called at this point. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 15:23, 8 August 2018 (EDT)
-I would like to bump this discussion/proposal now that the final game has been leaked. It has been shown that the new name is retained in the final release and I reestablish my '''Support''' for moving this page to [[Kongo Falls]] along with the other stages to their new respective names. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 20:11, 26 November 2018 (EST)
-: '''Support.''' It seems to me that the main reason ''Ultimate'' renames a bunch of stages is to disambiguate. We should follow suit to reduce confusion caused by the similar stage names. —[[User:Fenhl|Fenhl]] 20:37, 26 November 2018 (EST)
-::'''Support''' I don't see why we wouldn't. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Festive Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:51, 26 November 2018 (EST)
-:::''Support'' Since its confirmed Ultimate is changing this now. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 23:53, 26 November 2018 (EST)
-== About Rishi's Proposed Jungle Jam ==
-I know it's a relatively young idea without much momentum at the present, but should it become popular over time, should we put a segment on it here? TheVictoryStar <majority of signature retroactively deleted by user> 19:15, August 27, 2019 (EDT)
-:What is "Rishi's Jungle Jam" to be exact? I've heard of it but don't know what it is. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:30, August 27, 2019 (EDT)
-::Also, you need to [[SW:SIG|fix your signature]]. That's a lot of text, and you're also not technically supposed to use mainspace images (though you can reupload them for your own purposes). [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 20:26, August 27, 2019 (EDT)
-::: Regarding what Rishi's Jungle Jam is, see [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SA_U6JoA7g this] video. Regarding the signature, fixed. Formally TheVictoryStar, now Platonic 03:17, August 28, 2019 (EDT).
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