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| ::I'm still curious as to where people get their endurance rankings from. Is it just pure experimentation like M2K's huge list of frame data? [[User:Smashgold347238|Smashgold347238]] ([[User talk:Smashgold347238|talk]]) 23:17, 1 August 2014 (EDT) | | ::I'm still curious as to where people get their endurance rankings from. Is it just pure experimentation like M2K's huge list of frame data? [[User:Smashgold347238|Smashgold347238]] ([[User talk:Smashgold347238|talk]]) 23:17, 1 August 2014 (EDT) |
| :::I presume it's experimentation, given that what's around right now was probably easier to test than to decode at the time. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 00:26, 2 August 2014 (EDT) | | :::I presume it's experimentation, given that what's around right now was probably easier to test than to decode at the time. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 00:26, 2 August 2014 (EDT) |
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| == Knockback is calculated <i>after</i> damage is dealt? ==
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| Since when? At least in Melee, I am at least 95% sure that KB gets calculated before damage...
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| [[User:Serpent King|Serpent King]] ([[User talk:Serpent King|talk]]) 23:00, 17 March 2015 (EDT)
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| :Since always, I'm pretty sure. I thought the formula page on the SSB64 website spelled it out but I can't see it right now with a quick look. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Undirigible 23:13, 17 March 2015 (EDT)
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| ::http://clashtournaments.com/mew2kings-melee-information-and-discoveries/#14 <--Do we really disagree with the king? [[User:Serpent King|Serpent King]] ([[User talk:Serpent King|talk]]) 01:30, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| :::I'm confused about how the cloaking device proves this. Whether or not the damage is calculated after the attack hits, the result would be the same. Also, the values of the knockback variables for Mario's side smash attack in Melee seem to be similar to the ones in Smash 4; it has the same base knockback and a very slightly lower knockback growth value. If the formula had changed, I would expect the knockback variables to be much different. Therefore, I don't think that Melee's formula uses the damage that an opponent has before the damage is dealt by an attack. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 02:30, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| :::Also, if Melee's formula used the damage that a target has before damage is dealt, then it would mean that a smash attack would deal the same amount of knockback to an opponent who hasn't sustained any damage, no matter how much the attack is charged. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 02:41, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| ::::The Cloaking Device has a weird effect: You do not sustain damage while under its effects. You get the KB, just not the damage. What's this about the smash attack doing the same KB uncharged? as the charge factor is not part of the formula, I do not see where you are coming from there. Does a full charged smash attack not have a different Base KB value as a non charged one? [[User:Serpent King|Serpent King]] ([[User talk:Serpent King|talk]]) 03:39, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| ::::Also, I am going to point out that as the damage dealt is already factored into the formula under a different var (d), it seems unlikely that it would be included in the p variable too. [[User:Serpent King|Serpent King]] ([[User talk:Serpent King|talk]]) 03:39, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| :::::If the percentage of the target before an attack hits the target is 0% and the knockback formula in Melee used the percentage of the target before the damage was dealt, then an uncharged smash attack that hits only once would deal the same amount of knockback as a fully-charged one. This isn't the case, however, so the percentage of the target after the damage is dealt is used. The game calculates the percentage that a target would have after being hit by an attack before the game calculates the amount of knockback that an attack would deal. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 04:14, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| ::::::Maybe we can get M2K to explain what he meant by that article then. I can see viability in both sides of this. [[User:Serpent King|Serpent King]] ([[User talk:Serpent King|talk]]) 04:28, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| :::::::What else needs to be explained? I already said why Melee's formula uses the percentage of the target after damage is dealt. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 04:53, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| :::::::The fact that post-hit damage is used in ''Melee'' has been proven by Magus420, who provides much more reliable research than that of Mew2king. Mew2king can make lists of what the game ''outputs'', but Magus420 analyzes the game’s code and tells you precisely what it does. Both approaches have their merits, but for deciding how knockback formulas work, Magus420’s is far superior. [[User:Kadano|<font color="blue">Kadano</font>]] [[User talk:Kadano|<font color="teal">talk</font>]] 07:42, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| ::::::::Understood, thank you. The Robot was wrong. [[User:Serpent King|Serpent King]] ([[User talk:Serpent King|talk]]) 07:50, 18 March 2015 (EDT)
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| ==Angle indicators in Smash 4?==
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| I'm not sure if it's just a part of the aesthetic overhaul in Smash 4, but some particles appear to behave like the angle indicators in [[Brawl]], mostly with body attacks such as kicks, though sword attacks used different looking ones, and throws without an actual "hit" didn't have any. I have some images[https://www.mediafire.com/folder/hbc6mlvvvsol4/Angle_Indicators], so I'm just curious if these are actual indicators or just part of the new art style. (To avoid confirmation bias as best as I could, I did include some that, in the case that they actually were angle indicators, would show the wrong angle.) [[User:B2jammer|b2jammer]] ([[User talk:B2jammer|talk]]) 21:51, 7 June 2015 (EDT)
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| == Formula ==
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| Is Smash 4's knockback formula the same as Brawl's and likely Melee? The page includes rage as a factor; so it must be, right? -- [[User:Ethan7|Ethan7]] ([[User talk:Ethan7|talk]]) 12:22, 9 November 2015 (EST)
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| == "Rage affects base knockback" ==
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| To the user who reverted my edit, what do you mean "rage affects base knockback"? It is seemingly consensus that rage is a knockback multiplier. [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 23:35, 23 March 2016 (EDT)
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| :I'm not actually sure. The page for rage ''used'' to say ''base'' knockback is what is affected by rage and I thought I heard that it is base knockback on websites. But it also could be the other way. I rather not put anything until we know how rage affects the knockback. -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 00:19, 24 March 2016 (EDT)
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| ::So you ''think'', and you're "not actually ''sure''"? Quote from the [[rage]] article: "At maximum rage, attacks will deal approximately 1.132x the amount of knockback that would normally be dealt." There is nothing in said article that has anything to do with it affecting just base knockback. [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 16:24, 24 March 2016 (EDT)
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| ::Also from said article: "The Rage Formula is multiplied on the end of the knock back formula denoted as R which stands for all variables such as crouching. All other variables aside R is .0011x where X is the damage of the Attacker." [[User:Chilex|Chilex]] ([[User talk:Chilex|talk]]) 16:26, 24 March 2016 (EDT)
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| :::I said '''used''' and put it in italics to make sure you would notice it. I think you are right, so if you are sure that is how rage affects knockback, go and put it in. Could you give me a source outside of SmashWiki that says how rage affects knockback? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 17:00, 24 March 2016 (EDT)
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| == Star/Screen KO Knockback Cap ==
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| [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CM4_hA7mtgU|] This at 8:37. This Charizard guy seriously hit a Bombchu at 194/199% at the top of the stage and '''still''' got Screen KO'd. Seriously, what is the amount of knockback that makes a Blast KO always happen? [[User:KirbysCrazyAppetite|Kirby's Crazy Appetite]] ~ [[File:KirbysCrazyAppetiteSig.png|50x20px]] 00:32, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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| :A threshold for only Blast KOs doesn't exist, as far as I know. [[User:Smashgold347238|<span style="color:#D4AF37">Gold</span>]] [[file:Goldsig.png|20px|link=User talk:Smashgold347238]] 06:28, 22 June 2016 (EDT)
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| == Knockback Merging in Smash 4 ==
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| I'm pretty sure there is some form of knockback merging. It's easiest to do in doubles, but some characters like Robin can also do it with something like Arcthunder and Levin Sword down air (the resulting trajectory is an angle below 0 degrees). We should do more research on this, instead of assuming that it carries over from Brawl. [[User:Smashgold347238|<span style="color:#D4AF37">Gold</span>]] [[file:Goldsig.png|20px|link=User talk:Smashgold347238]] 09:16, 18 November 2016 (EST)
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| == Elemental knockback ==
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| In all games, the screen will briefly flash white when the character takes strong knockback from non-elemental attacks. But the screen will flash in a different color depending on what elemental attack used: Orange from [[flame]] attacks, light blue from [[electric]] attacks,
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| purple from [[darkness]] attacks, and blue from [[aura]] attacks. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 23:43, 18 January 2017 (EST)
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| == Knockback exponential by nature? ==
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| I think we've all suspected it for a while now, that knockback (and by extension, units) are by nature exponential, in the sense that a known increase in knockback value seems to have a greater effect at higher knockback values, but I think I might have proof of this. I was wondering exactly how much stronger Jigglypuff's sweetspotted back air in SSB4 was, as it has the same KBG, damage and angle, but +30 base knockback. I tested it using a stage I created with multiple springs spaced evenly apart right next to each other, and I discovered something strange. At 0%, the +30 units of knockback made little difference, about half a large spring length of extra distance, but at higher percents, it made a difference of over 2 large spring lengths, despite the fact that it was still an increase of just 30 units of knockback. It would appear by this that 30 units of knockback makes more of a difference when the knockback was high to begin with, when you would expect it to be the other way around (e.g the difference between 1 lion and 10 lions is a much bigger difference than 101 lions and 110 lions). Any chance someone could look into this? [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 09:09, 13 May 2017 (EDT)
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| :You're comparing initial velocity (knockback dealt) to distance travelled (spring reached). The [https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/3818/stopping-distance-frictionless formula] for this conversion is <code>d = (v^2)/2a</code>. Because the initial velocity is squared, a linear increase makes a quadratic result. I wouldn't call this too much of a surprise. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Hammer 10:16, 13 May 2017 (EDT)
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| == Proof that knockback stacking exists in SSB4 ==
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| I have a gif that proves knockback stacking is present in SSB4. [[File:knockbackstacking.gif|right]]
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| If you look at the gif, you will see Kirby land fully charged hammer flip on Bowser, and immediately afterwards, Bowser is hit by the Yellow Devil. Both hitboxes use the sakurai angle, in opposite directions but the angle bowser is sent at is niether sakurai angle direction. Since Kirby's attack dealt more knockback, the resultant angle is determined more by his attack than Yellow Devil's, hence why Bowser is not sent straight upwards. This proves that we were wrong about knockback stacking not being present in SSB4. [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 15:21, 25 May 2017 (EDT)
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| :So this is something I'd been meaning to address (sorry, I'm a terrible procrastinator). I'm not sure why this was ever in dispute; I guess people who only ever play 1v1 may not notice, but if you play a lot of free-for-alls and such, every so often you'll see really obvious angle merging. I've got a clearer example I can upload in a bit if people need more convincing. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 16:01, 25 May 2017 (EDT)
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| For the sake of bumping this, [http://imgur.com/dDk9vrD here]. Sure looks like a merge to me. I'm just not sure what to write on the page, since I don't really know the details of how it works. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 16:28, 2 June 2017 (EDT)
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| == Regarding how much staleness affects knockback ==
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| My previous edits were primarily regarding how much staleness is applied to the value of the damage dealt by an attack in the formula. Here is the page for Ruben's SSBU calculator that outlines the knockback formula, also applicable to Smash 4: [https://github.com/rubendal/SSBU-Calculator/wiki/Damage-Multipliers]. There, it shows the full formula that the game uses and it can be clearly seen that the base damage value is multiplied by (1 - (1 - s) * 0.3), which evaluates to (0.7 + 0.3s). This means that the staleness and freshness bonus or, in other words, the sum of the reduction factors, is multiplied by 0.3 and so the formula uses the base damage value including 0.3x the staleness and freshness bonus. I don't see why the 0.7x value is insisted to be used for the pages when it's evidently not accurate at all.
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| Also, related to this, it could be beneficial if the knockback formula displayed on the page was more detailed. It doesn't include things like potential damage multipliers, more specifically the fact that there are two kinds: ones that affect only the final damage dealt and ones that directly affect the base damage value. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 14:42, August 6, 2019 (EDT)
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| :Move = Jigglypuff's Ftilt, Victim = Mario, Percent = 100, Staleness = 0.4695x
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| :KB (to 4.d.p) calculated taking staleness consideration as 70% = 87.3423
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| :KB (to 4.d.p) calculated taking staleness consideration as 30% = 103.0508
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| :Actual KB (to 4.d.p) = 103.0508
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| :Ok, it appears as though I made a mistake before, sorry about that. But I'm still wondering where the initial value came from...''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:06, August 6, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::This portion of the formula was likely misread when the information was initially added to the article. The error was present for a while, it seems. At least the error on this article and the stale-move negation one has been corrected now. [[User:LimitCrown|LimitCrown]] ([[User talk:LimitCrown|talk]]) 02:37, August 7, 2019 (EDT)
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| == How does Gravity affect Knockback or Launch Speed ==
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| I know that launch speed is different then knockback (even though lkaunch speed is very important to knockback, but that causes questions for another time), but how does gravity affect knockback or launch speed. I know if affects one of them, but I don't know which one and how it affects either one. If someone could explain, that would be great [[User:The Holy Wooomy|<font color="blood red">The Holy Wooomy with 69 Nuggets of Toasted Chaos</font>]] 16:32, March 18, 2020 (EDT)
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| :First, the game calculates knockback, and then multiplies the knockback value by 0.03 to calculate the launch speed. Then, the launch speed is split into a horizontal and vertical component in accordance with the move's launch angle, and the result of the gravity penalty is added onto the vertical component of the launch speed. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:37, March 18, 2020 (EDT)
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| ::What is the gravity penalty? Is it just the gravity of the hit fighter or is it the sum of (g - 0.075) x 5? [[Image:The_Holy_Wooomy.JPG|20px]] [[User:The Holy Wooomy|<font color="blood red">The Holy Wooomy with 69 Nuggets of Toasted Chaos</font>]] [[Image:Smug_Megumin.jpg]] 18:21, March 19, 2020 (EDT)
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| :::Yes, gravity penalty is the result of that formula. Can I suggest that if you have any more questions, you ask them [[SmashWiki:Discord server|here]] instead. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 18:24, March 19, 2020 (EDT)
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| == How launch speed is decayed ==
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| Does the decaying work on the first frame of the knockback? Let's say the initial launch speed is 5. Since launch speed decays by 0.051 per frame, my theory is that the speed is reduced to 4.949 on the first, then 4.898 on the second and so on until it reaches 0. Is this correct? And how does the decay work when launched at different angles? I'm just curious. If anyone could explain me the details, that'd be good. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 21:11, September 1, 2021 (EDT)
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| == Remove lists of moves ==
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| This article contains 3 sections which consist of a list of moves. This includes a list of moves with set knockback, no knockback and set weight knockback. The lists are poorly maintained, and many entries are missing, at least from the set knockback and set weight sections. If all moves matching the criteria were included, these lists would be enormous, and in fact arguably already are. However, are these lists even needed at all? Why are we dedicating large sections of an already large article to lists which are difficult to maintain, aren't particularly interesting, and aren't really useful either, since the relevant information can be found on character moveset pages anyway. I don't think we should continue to have these lists on the article, as simply providing a couple of examples would accomplish the purpose of informing about and demonstrating these mechanics. A series of exhaustive lists of moves possesing a certain quality simply aren't necessary for an encyclopaedia. Thoughts? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 18:12, December 25, 2021 (EST)
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| :Bump. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 09:38, December 31, 2021 (EST)
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| == KO differences ==
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| It's common knowledge that KOs are based on three known factors: the target's weight, gravity, and fall speed. So here's what I find interesting. In ''SSB'' and ''Melee'', horizontal KOs are only based on their weight, and since ''Brawl'', gravity. In all games, vertical KOs are based on their weight, gravity, and fall speed. In the case with ''Ultimate'', only weight and gravity when launched at between 70°-110° (but their DamageFlyTop animations also play a factor as well), and when launched vertically by a weight-independent attack, only gravity and fall speed. [[User:Juju1995|Juju1995]] ([[User talk:Juju1995|talk]]) 00:26, February 12, 2022 (EST)
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| == Making the equation more readable ==
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| Hey all, this equation can definitely be simplified. Since it's an image and I don't know how/what program to use to make it spit out something that looks that pretty, I'm not gonna mess with it, but at a minimum the first set of brackets can be changed into (2p+pd)/20. After this, you can multiply the fraction by 200/(w+100) to get (400p+200PD)/(20w+2000), which simplifies into (20p+10pd)/(w+100). Multiplying this by 1.4 yields (28p+10pd)/(w+100), which seems like it'd be much easier to follow (especially if you used a divisor sign instead of making it a fraction). <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:69.5.140.1|69.5.140.1]] ([[User talk:69.5.140.1|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/69.5.140.1|contribs]]) 16:22, April 11, 2022 (EDT)</small>
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| :No, the separation of terms in the currently displayed equation makes it much easier to see the effect of each factor. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:38, April 11, 2022 (EDT)
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| ::Looking through the revisions, it appears that the way it is laid out is accurate to how the game calculates it ([https://www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/nus_p_nalj/smash/M_AttackSystem.html official formula for 64]). So while it may give the same result, how it currently is is more true to form. As someone who has messed with calculating hitlag for too long, order and placement can really matter if there is something like rounding, spirits, player count, or whatever. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 16:53, April 11, 2022 (EDT)
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