Editing Talk:Grab

==Merge== 
'''No''' Page is long enough now and do we really have to make the throws page bigger? Also, grabbing is one thing while throws are another. Wouldn't be considered the same, just a step that leads up to it.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 21:38, 5 November 2010 (EDT)

'''Nope''' Agree, grabs and throws are distinct. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Data Node|Data Node]] 21:39, 5 November 2010 (EDT)

'''[http://instantrimshot.com/index.php?sound=priceiswrong&play=true Nuh-uh]'''. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:47, 5 November 2010 (EDT)

==Grabbing==
In Melee, I have noticed that the level 9 CPUs cannot escape a grab while someone with a rapid-hit attack (such as Kirby's A) is constantly hitting him or her. What is the cause for this phenomenon? Is is hitstun? I tried doing this in Brawl, but the CPU broke free. [[User:Green Mario|Green Mario]] ([[User talk:Green Mario|talk]]) 01:23, 2 December 2010 (EST)
:If this occurs to several other users, then it is indeed a AI thing. Depending on the community's results, it can be added.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 10:03, 2 December 2010 (EST)

::I don't even know if that is an AI thing. AIs tend to break out of grabs no matter how high their percentage is. I've gotten percentages up to 999% by simply grabbing an opponent with one character and constantly mashing the A button using Kirby on the opponent. Maybe I'll upload a video for this or something...[[User:Green Mario|Green Mario]] ([[User talk:Green Mario|talk]]) 22:16, 2 December 2010 (EST)
:::Though a video is very nice, it isn't required if that's what you're thinking.--<span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|20px|:p]] 22:36, 2 December 2010 (EST)

== Grab escape formula ==

Wouldn't it be better if we made this visible on a picture and explained how it works, like with the knockback formula? [[File:Crazyhandflash.gif|20px|link=]][[User:Crazymasterhand98|<font color="purple">'''Crazy'''</font><font color="gray">'''master'''</font>]][[User talk:Crazymasterhand98|<font color="blue">'''hand'''</font><font color="green">'''98'''</font>]] 18:32, 17 November 2013 (EST)

==Isabelle's Fishing Rod==
Would Isabelle's side special move count as a grab? Or is it a special case since it can be blocked by shields? [[User:Laniv|Laniv]] ([[User talk:Laniv|talk]]) 23:48, 24 November 2018 (EST)

== Link in 64 ==

Why is Link's grab labelled as extended instead of tether for Smash 64? It's very clearly a tether in 64, like Samus's. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 15:01, July 4, 2020 (EDT)

:Tether recoveries don't exist in 64 so it's an extended grab. Not sure why Samus's is listed as a tether in 64. [[File:001Toad.jpg|20px]] '''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">Omegα</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">Toαd</font>]]''' 15:05, July 4, 2020 (EDT)

== For anyone questioning the edit I just made ==

Compare [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/423548577667743765/876640422477328415/palutena_grab_reach.png Palutena's grab] to [https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/423548577667743765/876641439503757383/pit_grab_reach.png Pit's grab], with a handy line to approximate where the "effective grab reach" of each character begins. Both grabs have the same hitbox length of 13.0 units, yet it's so clear that they aren't remotely in the same ballpark of how far away they can actually grab. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:53, August 15, 2021 (EDT)
:I must not have read the edit fully then. Factoring in fighter collisions definitely shifts things around. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:16, August 15, 2021 (EDT)

==Classification of tether and extended grabs==
The classifications seem inconsistent. 64 Link and 64 Samus's are both classified as extended grabs I'm assuming because zairs didn't exist yet. However, Brawl ZSS is classified as tether despite not having a zair in that game, but then Steve is classified as a tether despite not having a zair. 

Now you could say characters with tether grabs don't need to have a zair and just need to have tether recoveries, but Ultimate Luigi cannot use a tether recovery even though he has a zair, yet he's still classified under tether grab.

I feel like characters who simply have grabs that are independent from the character but don't have a zair should be classified under extended grabs like Olimar, Pac-Man, or Yoshi. [[User talk:Kesterstudios]] November 17, 2021

I think the issue here is that the grab and the Z aerial are separate moves, and it's the latter that allows a tether recovery. Indeed, there is very little functional difference between Zero Suit Samus, Luigi and Steve's grabs, or even more so between ZSS' grabs in Brawl and later games. It feels like the distinction between tether and extended grabs is entirely arbitrary and should not continue to be used, especially when characters with non-standard Zairs like Luigi make it problematic. But regardless, Steve's grab should not classified as a tether if the distinction is retained. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 11:35, November 17, 2021 (EST)

:The difference is supposed to be that tethers are grabs where the grab box is attached to an object held by the fighter, rather than a fighter's limbs. So for example ZSS's grab is a tether as the grab box is attacked to the beam whip, while Yoshi and Min Min's grabs are not tethers since the grab box is attached to their tongue and arms respectively. This article seems to have an issue with conflating ledge tethers to tether grabs however, which is a problem because not all ledge tethers are tether grabs and vice versa. Obviously hookshot is still a tether grab in 64, as is grapple beam. Olimar is weird, but the Pikmin themselves are grabbing with there own limbs so it seems weird to call it a tether. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 12:33, November 17, 2021 (EST)

::"grabs where the grab box is attached to an object held by the fighter, rather than a fighter's limbs" Well in that case, Villager, Isabelle, and Bowser Jr's grabs would be considered tether grabs. This isn't specific enough. [[User talk:Kesterstudios]] November 17, 2021
:::Thing is, in all of those cases the grab box isn't attached to the object, but it's attached to the fighter's neutral bone, like with most grabs. That's because these are area of effect grabs rather than grabs that are only active at the tip of an object. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 13:22, November 17, 2021 (EST)

:::I see. OK well if we're going with that definition, 64 Link and Samus's grabs should definitely be classified as tether grabs instead of extended. [[Talk:Kesterstudios]]
::::Hey, if you don't mind me asking, do you not know how to sign comments? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 14:02, November 17, 2021 (EST)

:::: Yeah I don't know how lol. [[User talk:Kesterstudios]]
:::::You type out 4 tildes (<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 16:43, November 17, 2021 (EST)
::::::The way I classify tether grabs is through the use of an external model that uses the throw bone to move its grabbox. It makes visualizing them only possible if done manually. The presence of a tether recovery or a grab aerial is irrelevant. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 14:03, November 18, 2021 (EST)
:::::::I'll add that this is the reason tether grabs get weird when the game speed is altered, while extended grabs do not suffer from that issue. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 14:07, November 18, 2021 (EST)

You mentioned that the "throw" bone is the distinguishing feature between tether and standard grabs, so does that mean that Min Min and Pac-Man have a tether, while Yoshi does not since his grab is tied to the "mouth2" bone? [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 17:08, November 18, 2021 (EST)
:Not exactly. The throw bone of tether grabs does not move unless the secondary model is present. It moves regardless in the case of Min Min and Pac-Man. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 17:12, November 18, 2021 (EST)
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 You mentioned that the "throw" bone is the distinguishing feature between tether and standard grabs, so does that mean that Min Min and Pac-Man have a tether, while Yoshi does not since his grab is tied to the "mouth2" bone? [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 17:08, November 18, 2021 (EST)
 :Not exactly. The throw bone of tether grabs does not move unless the secondary model is present. It moves regardless in the case of Min Min and Pac-Man. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 17:12, November 18, 2021 (EST)
-== Permission to add converted values to Smash 64 section? ==
-Since the Smash 64 measurement system already has a conversion rate to future games listed, I figured I could add the converted rates to the page in a second header next to the main values for the sake of easier viewer comparison to future games. Just want to be sure that's something administrators or whoever would be cool with first.[[User:CauseTheyWantedMeTo|CauseTheyWantedMeTo]] ([[User talk:CauseTheyWantedMeTo|talk]]) 19:20, May 16, 2024 (EDT)
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