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| :Is the general policy not "once notable, always notable"? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 09:59, July 1, 2023 (EDT) | | :Is the general policy not "once notable, always notable"? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 09:59, July 1, 2023 (EDT) |
| ::How does that apply here? This isn't a matter of "was Giant Kirby ever notable", it's "there's nothing more special about Giant Kirby than the plethora of other giant characters you fight in Smash single-player", and the scant of relevant information about him is contained within the associated single-player modes articles. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:34, July 1, 2023 (EDT) | | ::How does that apply here? This isn't a matter of "was Giant Kirby ever notable", it's "there's nothing more special about Giant Kirby than the plethora of other giant characters you fight in Smash single-player", and the scant of relevant information about him is contained within the associated single-player modes articles. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:34, July 1, 2023 (EDT) |
| :::This is perhaps not the best example I admit. Giant Kirby certainly has the least importance compared to Giant Bowser (same deal really), the Kirby team (unique mechanic that other teams don't have), and the Yoshi Team (shaped the lore of Yoshi in not only Smash Bros. but the Mario series itself). But this certainly ''is'' a question of historical notability. At the time we had little/no way of knowing whether there was a mechanical difference between SSB64's Giant DK and SSBM's Giant Kirby. In the context of the time, there was every reason to believe they had equal importance, and the wiki editors behaved accordingly. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Labbie 12:12, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::In the context of the time, while the datamining tools people have today weren't around in 2002, what was definitely obvious was that the Super Mushroom didn't exist in 64, so either way Giant DK was of more importance because he was the only one in 64 who could have the giant modifier (especially so nowadays because we know that he's coded to be a separate character). I'll admit I was hesitant to tag the Yoshi/Kirby teams for deletion, given that the Yoshi team uses costumes the playable Yoshi couldn't use in 64, and the Kirby Team does have a unique mechanic other teams don't (though to be fair that's because the character is Kirby, who has the unique copy ability mechanic that can't apply to anybody else), and I completely forgot about Giant Bowser (which, as both of you mentioned, is the same deal as Giant Kirby). [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 13:50, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::"''At the time we had little/no way of knowing whether there was a mechanical difference between SSB64's Giant DK and SSBM's Giant Kirby. In the context of the time, there was every reason to believe they had equal importance, and the wiki editors behaved accordingly.''"
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| ::::People in the past being ignorant about a subject isn't "historical notability" and so does not justify keeping the article. Under that sort of logic, we never would have deleted [[Smasher:Zootematrix|Toadbanjoconker's article]] because he was once incorrectly believed to be the "discoverer" of wavedashing, or really you could extend that as a reason to never delete any old article because people in the past once thought its subject should have a page, which would obviously get silly with all the dumb things people made articles, categories, templates, etc. for when the wiki's standards were less codified (e.g. articles for trophy-only characters, articles for non-Smash consoles, the Brazilian tier list article, the home stage article, the female smashers category, the netplay smashers category, the metal characters galleries, the competitive navigation templates, etc etc). I'll also note this from [[SW:SMASHER]] on the topic of "once notable, always notable":
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| ::::"''Keep in mind, however, that the wiki documents smasher articles on a historical basis. So if a smasher was found to have satisfied our notability guidelines at some point-in-time, they will be considered notable enough to have a smasher article here regardless of how irrelevant they end up becoming in the future, barring an update to the notability guidelines or '''new information/arguments being brought up that finds the original notability-approval dubious'''.''"
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| ::::The bolded part is what's relevant here, "once notable, always notable" doesn't mean the original notability approval is infallible and can never be questioned. So even if you were to argue Giant Kirby, Yoshi team, etc, were once deemed notable enough for their own articles, the counterargument is simply they never were notable in the first place, and the articles would have been shot down then if we had our current standards and knowledge we have now. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:52, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::::I'm not going to debate much over Giant Kirby/Giant Bowser, I do agree that the justification to keep them is flimsy. I'm on the fence about the Kirby team; unlike Giant Kirby/Bowser, the Kirby team isn't just "the Team stage with Kirby", and the same gimmick appears in multiple games. The Yoshi Team has historical importance for the evolution of non-Smash Bros. content, and thus will stay. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Resolute 14:29, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::::"''the Kirby team isn't just "the Team stage with Kirby''"
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| ::::::The Kirbies starting with copy abilities is really no different than the many other single-player battles where someone gets something that they normally wouldn't, like the permanent invisible Fox/Falco on [[Event 23: Slippy's Invention]], the player starting with a perpetual final smash in [[Event 2: Landmaster Ignition]], all the metal and giant characters in other modes, and all the things that spirit battles do.
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| ::::::"''The Yoshi Team has historical importance for the evolution of non-Smash Bros. content, and thus will stay.''"
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| ::::::Aside from you not being able to unilaterally say "this will stay", this claim is just wrong; several different-colored Yoshis were already depicted since his inception, and was expanded farther upon in Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story, both of which precedes Smash 64. "Yoshi team" in Smash did not invent the concept of there being several different colored Yoshis. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:51, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::::::This is the wrong place to discuss the Yoshi Team specifically, but it isn't about there being different Yoshi colours. It's about SSB64 being the first instance of a mob of Yoshis working together as a large group, an idea that later inspired the stampede in SSBM's opening, the move in TTYD, and eventually the Final Smash in SSBU. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Multifaceted 15:29, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::::::The [https://mario.wiki.gallery/images/b/bb/Story_End_7.png whole story of Yoshi's Story] was a group of Yoshis working together, that did not start with the Yoshi team in Smash 64. Additionally, several individuals of a species working together is itself not some original concept, are we gonna say the various pokemon teams you can fight in Smash "inspired" horde battles in X/Y? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 16:35, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| <small>(Reset indent) </small> Popping in here to say that, while I think we're in agreement on the idea that keeping Giant Kirby (and Giant Bowser) is lame, I'm willing to make arguments for both the Yoshi and Kirby teams based on the existence of the Giant DK article: consider that two Yoshi colors are exclusive to that team and are inaccessible to the player by any normal means, and that every Kirby in that team is the same color (which, aside from one single glitch in Brawl, is still impossible to have today in a normal match). I won't claim to know anything about the inner machinations of Smash 64 and whether or not those Yoshis or Kirbys are uniquely coded characters like Giant DK, but to me, those unique factors read to me as something specifically crafted for 1P Game, much like Giant DK (or Metal Mario). [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 17:49, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| :Another difference is that Giant Kirby and Giant Bowser are exclusive to SSBM, so there's not much lost if the content is moved elsewhere. The Kirby team and Yoshi Team appear in multiple games, so there is more merit to having a "root" page for them. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 19:58, July 1, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::@Aidan: Giant DK and Metal Mario are justified articles on the fact that ''they are'' actually separated programmed characters, Kirby team and Yoshi team are not. The Kirbies in Kirby team having the same palette is nothing more than meager trivia, and Yoshi team's extra palettes are already covered on his [[Yoshi (SSB)#Alternate costumes|character page]] and on the [[Alternate costume (SSB)#Yoshi|alternate costumes page]], while you can easily add it to the 1P game article too. You do not need an entire article for Yoshi Team to cover the existence of these two extra palettes only used in this instance. If we're going to make articles for all the little things CPU opponents get exclusively in certain single-player battles that the player can never access without hacking, where is the article for the permanently invisible Fox and Falco mentioned prior? The player can't get that in a normal match.
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| ::@Toomai: Giant Kirby and Giant Bowser very much appear in future games as part of the many giant characters you fight (it's even already mentioned on this page, so where is that claim coming from), just like there's a ton of other team characters you fight that Kirby team and Yoshi team are not any more special than. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:10, July 2, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::You seem to be missing the entire premise here. There is a ''conceptual'' difference between "Giant Kirby" and "Kirby with the giant status", between "Yoshi Team" and "team of Yoshis". There is no ''technical'' difference, but that is not relevant, because the intent of these pages is to be about the ''concept''. The concept of "Giant X" is not particularly special, so those two pages are hard to justify keeping without an extenuating circumstance (as Giant DK has). The concept of "group of Kirbys each with their own copy ability" is unique compared to just "team of X" and appears in two different games, so there is a case to keep it. The concept of "large mob of Yoshis acting in unison instead of just a tag team" is something that originated in Smash Bros. and had a tangible effect on the Mario series, so there is a strong case to keep it. Deleting all of these pages just because they aren't "''technically'' correct" will not improve the wiki. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Labbie 19:03, July 2, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::"'' The concept of "group of Kirbys each with their own copy ability" is unique compared to just "team of X"''"
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| ::::It's nothing more unique than the aforementioned permanently invisible Fox/Falco, or any other single-player battle where the opponent starts with an effect, and there's no relevant information to cover about it that isn't already easily covered in the associated single-player mode pages.
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| ::::"'' The concept of "large mob of Yoshis acting in unison instead of just a tag team" is something that originated in Smash Bros. and had a tangible effect on the Mario series''"
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| ::::Why do you keep peddling this bullshit that I already debunked? Yoshis existing as a species already existed since their inception, and them "acting in unison" was ''was already done in [https://mario.wiki.gallery/images/b/bb/Story_End_7.png Yoshi's Story] where the story's whole premise was the Yoshis working together to get their Happy Tree back'', while it's also a ''very common trope in general for a mob of animals/monsters to work together''. I'll ask again, are we going to claim the Pokemon team in Melee's Adventure mode also "inspired" horde battles in X/Y and all subsequent media depictions of a group of pokemon working together? "Yoshi team" ''did not invent the concept of Yoshis working together''.
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| ::::"''Deleting all of these pages just because they aren't "technically correct" will not improve the wiki.''"
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| ::::Clinging onto ancient pages created in an era of uncodified standards that serve as nothing more than to conglomerate trivia from elsewhere on the wiki on the basis of "people in the past thought we should have it" and fraudulent "this shaped Smash lore!" reasons is not improving the wiki. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 11:53, July 3, 2023 (EDT)
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| ::::To add, the concept of Yoshis banding together was present in the [[mariowiki:Super Mario Adventures#Issue 34 (March 1992)|34th issue of the ''Super Mario Adventures'' comics]], which was published in the early '90s and based on ''Super Mario World'', making it predate ''Smash 64''. In them, the Yoshis are released from jail and form a stampede to trample Bowser's wedding ceremony. Yoshis as a species seem to take inspiration from animals like horses and other ungulates, from their social nature to their propensity to travel, attack, etc. in groups. It seems more likely that the grouping of Yoshis we see in ''64, Melee, Ultimate,'' and ''TTYD'' is a result of the association of Yoshis with the aforementioned observed phenomena in real world animals rather than a behavior specifically conceived and applied to Yoshis in ''Smash 64'' and then trickled down into later games. Therefore, I don't believe the Yoshi Team article stands on firm enough ground to be kept. <font face="Trebuchet MS">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 17:21, July 6, 2023 (EDT)
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| :::::Hm this (SMW comic) is news to me. I will admit that weakens my stance a lot. I still think the first in-game instance is important, but can't really debate that it isn't the all-important first overall instance. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Different 15:58, July 8, 2023 (EDT)
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| <small>(Reset indent) </small> I know I'm late to this response, but to respond to your thing about clear Fox and Falco, you ''can'' actually get that permanently in a normal match, you just [[Special Smash#Special Melee|also have to be invisible yourself]]. Regardless, I won't die on the hill to keep a page for the Yoshi and Kirby teams, I was just attempting to understand the logic behind the pages being made in the first place. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 17:14, July 5, 2023 (EDT)
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| I '''support''' the deletion of this and other indistinct single-player mode opponents ([[Yoshi Team]], [[Mario Bros. (team)]], [[Kirby Team]], and [[Giant Bowser]]). As stated before, there aren't enough unique gameplay aspects about them to justify their pages. [[User:ShootingStar7X|ShootingStar7X]] ([[User talk:ShootingStar7X|talk]]) 15:05, October 28, 2023 (EDT)
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| :I '''support''' this assessment. They could easily be merged with each character's respective single-player appearances. --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 12:57, November 29, 2023 (EST)
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| '''Merge''' with [[Super Mushroom]] since it is the same effect. [[User:Perathian|Perathian]] ([[User talk:Perathian|talk]]) 19:05, November 29, 2023 (EST)
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