Talk:Fighter/Archive 3

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Fighter Numbers

So in both the reveal trailer and the website, each fighter was given a number according to the order they were introduced into the series. The question I want to ask is if we should consider this something that deserves to be listed, on this page and on character infoboxes.

If we do end up going for listing fighter numbers on this page, it would also give us an official way to order the characters, since no game's CSS (before Ultimate) has every Smash character ever on it. Note that the table can be sorted by any column, so viewers can still order characters alphabetically or however.

(I would have made this a proposal, but I made my account specifically to do that and I don't want to wait four days.)

Edit: Be sure to also check out my related discussion point on the character infobox talk page!

Vote below. --Ahemtoday (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

Yes, list the numbers of each character

1. Support. I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. It's the most official order for every fighter currently in Smash, it can easily be extended, and it's not as though it would be a huge undertaking to put them there. As for character infoboxes, we already list character's species, gender, and place of origin; and I would argue that these numbers are more pertinent to Smash than all of those. --Ahemtoday (talk) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
2. List the numbers, but don't sort them by default in that order. I think it should be an option to list them by Ultimate's official order, but it's not an order that any other installment uses, so it might be overemphasizing Ultimate if we used that as the basis of the list. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 17:48, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
3. List the numbers. I agree! If we can make it official, then let's do it! Dragonfirebreath25 (talk) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
4. I agree with Nyargleblargle. Unknown the Hedgehog 17:52, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
5. Put the numbers in a column. That way, people can sort by them if they want to. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 17:56, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
6. Agreed. It is official after all. Definitely needs a column. Master Zach (talk) 17:58, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
7. Ultimate Support. I did just do it after all. RobSir zx 19:32, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
8. Support Fully agree with Nyargleblargle. In addition, the characters are now sorted ingame by fighter number. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 02:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
9. Even official media from Ultimate is using the numbers https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/fighter/index.htmlShideravan (talk) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
   • The order in Smash ultimate fighter selection sorting follow the official number orderShideravan (talk) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
   • It is not arbitrary and uses a historical precedent in the order of fighters first seen by the public, as can be seen here: https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/14/what-do-smash-ultimates-character-numbers-mean/ Shideravan (talk) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

     The precedent itself is pretty arbitrary, and as I state in my argument below, doesn't appear to serve a useful purpose unless we later find it's something important in-game like the character unlock order (and even then, that means it's only important for the SSBU pages, not really this one). Toomai Glittershine The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)

10. I agree with Shideraven. The only reason I do is because the official website numbers them. I think we should at least include the numbers in the character's info box. Unowninator (talk) 23:33, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
11. I support even if it's just putting the number in the Smash Ultimate infoboxes. There's not reason we should ignore the numbers entirely Guybrush20X6 (talk) 06:29, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
12. (I am just an anonymous user, so my statement may not mean much.) I feel like we should put the characters in their numbered order. Yes, this is the first time we have an actual confirmed order. The last time this happened (in a sense) on the wiki was for Smash 64, where the characters matched their select screen locations. None since have matched the order like that on the wiki, instead being ordered by the game series inclusion into Smash with a few exceptions. One of the concerns I saw in a counterargument was that it only applies to Ultimate. Yes, it currently does only apply to Ultimate, and should probably only be applied to the correlating Ultimate pages, including the main page. “But Echo Fighters will be out of place”, only Lucina and Dark Pit would be since we’d keep the newcomers page. If they were to keep the numbers and Daisy were to become her own fighter in a possible 6th installment, then that would only apply to the 6th installment and the correlating pages. Another concern I saw was “people can sort by them if they want to”: I cannot see that being possible with the current list. Unless it was for it to be alphabetical like Poké Ball Pokémon. On the character pages, we can do something like what we’re doing to the stages that were in Melee. For example, Onett is “Eagleland: Onett”. The characters on their Ultimate page can be like “10: Ness”. I really like how it is currently done on the Mario Wiki for Ultimate https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate With the only surprising thing being that it’s on the Mario Wiki and not the Smash Bros. Wiki. They even included the character’s series’ logo, and if there’s additional info (Like with Pokémon Trainer and pallet swaps). All that said, I feel like we should at least sort them by their number/select-screen-location. 47.199.44.226 (talk • contribs) 12:34pm, 14 August 2018 (EDT) (<--I posted this here by Mistake)
13. Just thought I'd bring up that the characters are sorted by their number in the actual game. During the Direct, Sakurai said, "Stages are now in chronological order, just like the fighters," or something along those lines. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 21:27, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

No, the numbers aren't notable enough

1. No. I don't see any actual supporting arguments here.
   • "It could be official." Even ignoring the "could", SW:OFFICIAL says "so what?". I'd also like to note that the numbers are extremely arbitrary in the sense that they depend on the order Sakurai chose to reveal characters in the past, so they're not particularly useful unless we determine they have an in-game purpose.
   • "It can easily be extended." Yes but will it be? If the next game ignores the numbers, we're left with an incomplete set and might have to remove them. And what happens if someone gets decloned? Melee's clones were absolutely clones at the time; would Sakurai have assigned them "echo" status if he'd considered the idea? We might end up with a per-game list of numbers and that kind of defeats the purpose.
   • "It's not hard to add them." ...so what? A lot of stuff is "easy", that doesn't mean it's correct.

   Now, here's my main argument for leaving the numbers out: There's currently no evidence that the numbers are actually important. I happen to think they're just marketing hype for the "all veterans are returning" shtick. If it turns out that they designate the unlock order or something else in-game, then sure add them to the relevant SSBU pages. (After all, "it's easy", so there's no need to scramble to do it now, right?) But for now? No thanks. Toomai Glittershine The Spectrum 10:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

   Your second point is honestly a pretty big concern. Maybe we could integrate the numbers into the Ultimate column somehow as a solution for the incomplete set thing?

   However, I don't think SW:OFFICIAL means that we shouldn't offer the numbering as an option to sort through the list at all; there's not really any precedent for ignoring official info entirely as far as I can recall. We cover unofficial terms and subjects because that makes it easier to view comprehensive information about the series, so I don't see why that shouldn't be the case for official material as well. I could see plenty of people choosing to sort this list based on Ultimate's order because of how it kind of encapsulates the evolution of the roster. Also, as for the marketing hype point you made, we discuss the Dojo and Pics of the Day pretty often and reference them in articles, so why not do the same for this game's marketing materials? Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 19:29, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

   Yes the officialness point is a weak one, I'm not going to try to debate it. More important are the "what about the future" and "it's not particularly useful" ones. In fact, I thought of something to add to the "not useful" point: even though Sonic was practically added to Brawl after everyone else, late enough to cause a delay, he's not the last Brawl newcomer in the Sakurai Numbers because he was revealed on the website before Dedede and a bunch of others. It's almost anti-useful in that sense.

   The pic-of-the-day stuff is different because it generally always contained in-game content. As far as we know, the numbers do not exist in-game. Toomai Glittershine The Jiggy 22:48, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

2. Nah The numbering order is confusing, and overall, it's just not important enough to have it. Serpent  King 19:32, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

   What I mean by confusing by the way is that it makes no sense to have "echo" characters listed as the same character, plus it could easily get confused that these numbers are actually character IDs, which they aren't. Also, there's the fact that this order only applies to one game of 5. As far as I know, none of the other games number their characters this way.

   Also sorry for the revert, I didn't know this conversation existed., but either way, a consensus should be reached before the change is implemented Serpent  King 19:38, 24 June 2018 (EDT)

   This is indeed an additional good point. The fact that clones are marked as a non-number (i.e. a number plus an additional marking) means the entire list cannot be treated as a bunch of numbers. This also aligns with my earlier point about the future - say Daisy gets decloned in SSB6, she goes from 13e to 65 and pushes down everyone after that. Then the whole thing's permanently out of whack until we scale back down to only caring about it on a per-game basis (which isn't relevant to this page specifically). Toomai Glittershine The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)

3. Omit them. Toom and SK have hit the main points for me. Miles (talk) 14:13, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
4. Whoops! I feel that I posted on the wrong discussion page. I was asking about the characters' numbers on Ultimate's talk page (https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate) when "Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan" told me it was being discussed here. I was under the impression that "Awesomelink234" meant that the discussion for Ultimate's page (and corresponding character pages) was here. If this discussion is for the general list of playable character in Smash, then I do not see it working for the previously stated, as it is just a general list for the series as a whole and is subject to change in the future. Number currently only apply to Ultimate. 47.199.44.226 (talk • contribs) 12:34am, 16 August 2018 (EDT)

Well then if it only applies to Ultimate, just put the fighter numbers on its character template and leave the rest of them alone. Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan Leave a message if needed 21:25, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

Neutral

1. I think that at this stage it might be best to wait for the game's release and see if these numbers are used anywhere in the game. If they turn out to just be a trailer thing then no, but if they are actually used in the game somewhere then yes. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 07:09, 25 June 2018 (EDT)

---

Alright, looking back on this: it is 10-2 in favor of adding the numbers. If that's not consensus, at least votecount-wise, I'm not sure what is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ahemtoday (talk • contribs) 04:40, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

Just because a lot of people want something done doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing. I look over the support votes and I don't see a whole lot of reasons aside from "we should do it because it's official". On the other hand, the oppose section has several reasons that votes in the support section have yet to counter. In any case, I think we should wait for the game to be out before we make a decision, because the most important thing is if the numbers are in-game as opposed to simply in promotional content. (It won't really help their case on this page, but in SSBU infoboxes and such.) Toomai Glittershine The Jiggy 21:34, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

So the game's out. I reckon it's time to revisit this discussion and come to a conclusion. Ahemtoday (talk) 14:56, 10 December 2018 (EST)

NPC Specification

If we're putting notes about Ridley's Boss/Hazard appearances in the Playable Characters chart, shouldn't we also have ones for Charizard and Little Mac's Pokeball/Assist Trophy appearances? It feels a bit inconsistent not to. --Burb (talk) 08:12, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

Smash Bros. Universe unlockable characters

It has been confirmed in the Nintendo Direct: E3 2018 that your starting roster is the original N64 roster, and everyone else will be unlockable. It is discussable if the 4 unlockable N64 characters will be unlockabe too or not, but looking at how it was presented: all 12 characters faded in as he said which were available from the start, and all other characters slided in as he talked about unlocking characters, making it look like all 12 original will be available from the start. Liggliluff (talk) 08:17, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

The direct didn't use definitive wording. Your roster may be as small as the original fighters. I don't think that's confirmation. It's more like when Sakurai said there might be one or two more third-party characters in Brawl. He didn't mean it literally; he was introducing it as a concept. TheNuttyOne 20:56, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

According to GameXplain's video coverage of the Famitsu interview of Sakurai and the Ultimate's development; it sounds like it's definitely decided that the starting roster is the Smash 64 roster. At least the non-Smash 64 characters can be marked as unlockable.

On the topic of if the unlockable Smash 64 characters will be starters or unlockable; as the statement was that the Smash 64 characters were starters, and not the starter Smash 64 characters were the starters, all 12 should be expected to be unlocked. Looking back at the E3 2018 video, all 12 character faded in (the unlockable a moment after) as he talked about the starters, and everyone else slided in whilst he talked about unlockables.

Either way, I think it's starting to be pretty clear that all the non-core 12 characters will be unlockables.

Liggliluff (talk) 23:56, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

Given that we know now the game starts with the original eight characters, why do we still have the citation that it's unknown if the Mii Fighters will be unlockable? Euraj (talk) 15:11, 30 November 2018 (EST)

Wario Was INTENDED for Melee

If someone can put intended there he was intended. Source Gaming Sourced many interviews with Sakarai stating had there been more time, Wario wouldve been the first to get in: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/ WarioLoafer

About the perfect attendance crew section

It says that the original 12 will be starters in Ultimate, but on those four fighter pages and the Ultimate page itself it is said that is unknown. If those pages say that then why do we have that information in that section? George Jones 21:45, 27 July 2018 (EDT)

By leaving them blank since we don't know, that happens to also be the definition of "starter character" for the table. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 22:08, 27 July 2018 (EDT)

I don't really think the "non-playable characters" section should be on this page.

I just got done editing its "Notes" subsection, and working on it made me think about whether it really should be there. Honestly, I don't think it should, and here's a numbered list of reasons as to why:

1. The entire rest of the page is about playable characters. Including stage bosses on a page that is mainly about playable fighters just seems strange to me. I could forgive it if this was a Mortal Kombat situation where the bosses are basically just overpowered regular characters you can't select, but the problem is:
2. Most characters on that list behave nothing like playable fighters. Tabuu and Metal Face are in no way beholden to the same rules as regular fighters, which makes it weird that they're on this page. The notes on Sandbag literally admit it's not treated as a fighter anymore.
3. The list is a mishmash of characters with completely different roles, with barely any common thread between them. Multi-Man Smash teams, Sandbag, stage bosses, Subspace bosses, regular stage hazards, old bosses that are just variations of fighters - the list is all over the place. And, yes, there's a distinct definition on the page of what the list includes, but the problem is:
4. The definition of the list - "can fully interact with playable characters in-game, but are normally non-playable" - could also extend to every defeatable Assist Trophy and every single Subspace and Smash Run enemy. Of course I'm not suggesting we actually add all of these in, but the point is: if we actually were comprehensive about this list, it would be ludicrously massive.

So, in short, the list is so broad that it's a jumble of miscellaneous information shoved into an article that it's not really under the purview of. What do we do about it?

Well, my suggestion is as follows:

1. Remove the current form of the list from this page entirely. As I said above, the page is about playable characters aside from that one segment, and many characters in that segment don't resemble fighters at all.
2. Add a cross-game table to the Boss page. This table can include the Hands, Subspace bosses, and stage bosses - but not Sandbag or the Flying Man or whatever.
3. The rest of the information is already elsewhere on the site. The Flying Man and Nabbit don't fill up a table on their own, so they don't really need one. Same with Sandbag. There's already the enemy team] page to get the Fighting Team information.

It's voting time! Ahemtoday (talk) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

Remove the NPC Table

1. Remove it. I mean, I brought it up in the first place. Ahemtoday (talk) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
2. Remove. Change the name of the article to "List of Super Smash Bros. series fighters". An article including all characters in Smash could be made with this article's current title as a compromise. Smore (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

Keep the NPC Table

1. The page is not strictly about playable characters. The name even says "List of Super Smash Bros. series characters"; nowhere does that imply exclusively covering playable ones. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 10:11, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

   (Am I allowed to reply in indents like this?) Indeed it doesn't, but by that logic, this page should technically include every character that's ever been in Smash Bros.: Assist Trophies, Subspace enemies, and non-fighting stage hazards like Kraid included. Ahemtoday (talk) 10:19, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

   (You are, but use #s and colons instead of spaces; the latter messes with how it looks on the page.) Perhaps I wasn't clear: I'm not necessarily supporting keeping it as I am pointing out a flaw in your argument; this page isn't exclusively "playable characters" as you have made it out to be, and instead is generally about characters. Though, if you want a counter to your claim that we should include everything, pages shouldn't be so large that they cannot load; the one we are discussing is already 37KB in size, and including all references to every character would make it even bigger. Aidan, the College-Bound Rurouni 10:35, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

   I'll concede the page isn't currently exclusively about playable characters, and that we shouldn't include literally every character ever mentioned in Smash Brothers. However, if we aren't going to mention literally everyone, we need to draw a distinct line between what's included and what isn't - and the current line is fuzzy at best, wherein every Smash Run enemy and every damageable Assist Trophy "should" be included in the NPC table according to the definition of what goes there (but not according to common sense). With this in mind, I'd say that making the page about playable characters would draw a completely unambiguous line, fix all the issues I mentioned previously, and trim down the page. Ahemtoday (talk) 11:57, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

   Maybe we define it as characters that are mandatory to fight in a single player mode but cannot be selected in multiplayer? This would include Subspace enemies and bosses but exclude Assist Trophies, stage bosses, and Smash Run enemies. I’m sure it could be optimized further to be more sensible. Nyargleblargle (Contribs) 21:43, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

   That definition leaves us with 58 characters on that list, most of which are stuff like Primids and Floows. Not really a fan of having such a bloated list. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:05, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

The npc table is now on the actual npc page, and thus will be deleted, due to it not belonging on this page.

Unused Brawl Characters

According to Sakurai, Villager, Pac-Man and the Miis were all supposed to end up in Brawl but they didn't for varying reason. Should they be mentioned on the table since other cut characters are mentioned? (Dr Mario, Roy, Ice Climbers etc.). Thanks Ice Cream Melee (talk) 10:15, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

The same is also true for Chrom in Smash 4 Ice Cream Melee (talk) 10:18, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

The difference there is that they're not necessarily unused, but rather "considered but never implemented". Aidan, the Rurouni 11:04, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

Ice Climbers in Smash 4? They're not unused per say but they're still on the chart. Ice Cream Melee (talk) 18:26, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

The Ice Climbers were planned to be in the game, and Sakurai said that his team tried multiple things to simply get them to run on the 3DS, but it just couldn't handle the duo. Meanwhile, for example, Pac-Man was a mere suggestion to Sakurai (by, of all people, Shigeru Miyamoto), but Sakurai turned it down because he thought his pizza-shape design would not benefit him well. Aidan, the Rurouni 18:42, 16 September 2018 (EDT)

Ultimate's manual actually DOES have heads for Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, and the Miis

Seeing the checkmarks in the table always kind of bugged me, but these two images show official "stock icons" that we can use.

Squirtle's icon also appears regarding the Merman spirit in the World of Light trailer, so it looks like these icons will be used in-game as well. Zowayix (talk) 08:49, 8 November 2018 (EST)

Should alternate genders be added to the “alternate costume characters” section?

I don’t see anybreason not to. Lou Cena (talk) 03:34, 9 February 2019 (EST)

I mean, I'd argue the reason is that they aren't really seperate characters. Their names don't differ, they don't have different announcer clips, and most importantly, they're all either alternate variations of a character or different generic members of one species or occupation.

Also, what makes a character's gender being changed any different than their model being significantly changed in any other way? If we're going to mark down female Corrin as notable enough to be considered a seperate character, I would argue we would also have to consider Builder Mario and Meta Ridley as seperate characters as well. Advent Children Cloud and Bayonetta 1 Bayo, at least, since their entire render pose changes. Heck, in half the Ice Climbers' alts you're playing as Nana instead of Popo, so do we need to mark that down? Do all eight Inkling alts count as seperate characters due to the massive variations in models and ink color between them?

What I'm saying is, if we allow alternate costumes that don't have different names, then the list just clogs up into "every mildly notable alternate costume". So I'd say a hardline distinction has to be drawn. Ahemtoday (talk) 22:52, 9 February 2019 (EST)

Gender and alternate characters

I believe should not be listed here because they are not base characters, they do not appear on the roster, and they exceed the scope of this article. This article exists to list the characters of the series, not each and every form of each character. If we want to do that, we may as well just merge it with the alt articles. Serpent  King 16:59, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Many other fighting games feature alternate costume characters (for example, Kuma/Panda and Eddie/Christie from Tekken). Alternate genders and alternate characters are the same as those essentially. Lou Cena (talk) 17:01, 10 February 2019 (EST)

With all due respect, we are not a wiki dedicated to other fighting games. We are Smash and Smash only. Serpent  King 17:05, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I...don't see what your point is. Yeah, other fighting games do it as well. What of it? Pokebub (talk) 17:10, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Responding to both pokepub and serpent king, the reason why i brought it up is that alternate costume characters are acknowledged as characters. Super Smash Bros. Is no exception to this. Misclenaia almost always use both versions. So I don’t see any reason not to do it. Lou Cena (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2019 (EST)

In what context is Iggy Koopa regarded as a Smash Bros. character and not an alternate costume for Bowser Jr.? Serpent  King 17:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)

No one says "I main Iggy" or "Male Wii Fit Trainer is X tier" Serpent  King 17:30, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Notice how I said almost. Female Corrin, Alph, male inkling, female Robin, male WFT, and female Pokémon Trainer are often treated as equal to their counterparts. Corrin in particular is used in the classic mode mural instead of male corrin. Lou Cena (talk) 17:32, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Also, you probably ahouldn’t make assumptions about “who mains iggy?”, because I see a ton of people saying “I main Wendy” or “I main female Corrin”. Again, regarding Corrin, I often see most gameplay with corrin using the female counterpart. It really doesn’t hurt to acknowledge them. Lou Cena (talk) 17:34, 10 February 2019 (EST)

It doesn't matter, this still doesn't change the fact that listing out all of this is not the point of the article. Serpent  King 17:36, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Understand that every article on this wiki has a scope. The scope of this article is "Base fighters in Smash", alternate costumes is covered on the 5 (one for each game) alt articles, as that is their scope. Serpent  King 17:38, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I understand that most alternate costumes are simply pallete swaps or wardrobe changes, and that’s why I’m not doing it for every single one. The ones I listed down there are the ones who are not simply pallete swaps or wardrobe changes. Lou Cena (talk) 17:48, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Okay, I've been trying to phrase my opinions on this correctly for a while now, but I've been having trouble because I don't agree with either of you. First of all, I want to point out: this article's scope is either wider than you seem to believe or has been completely ruptured for a while, because the "non-playable characters" section certainly doesn't qualify under "base fighters in Smash". (It's probably prudent to mention that I don't even want that section in the article myself, so using it as an example is a little weird for me.) I've already outlined why I don't agree with including different-gendered versions in the above section, but full-on alternate costume characters like the Koopalings and Alph are actually meaningfully distinguished by the game from their originals by using different names and announcer clips. At the very least, the idea I really take umbrage with is that the Koopalings are "outside the scope of the article", but the gigantic potpourri table of Multi-Man teams, stage bosses, Classic Mode bosses, and Sandbag for some reason is perfectly fine and within reason. I can take or leave both or neither or just the Koopalings and Alph, but if we're cutting things off "scope" that monstrosity better be the first to go. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:02, 10 February 2019 (EST)

To be honest Ahemtoday, I have always found the nonplayable table a bit odd for this article as well, but decided it was a different discussion for a different time. Serpent  King 18:05, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I knew I felt like something was off about this article. I remember thinking the same way a while ago, but forgot about it and started no discussion. I'd definitely like to see that section axed or split into it's own page, but of course, that's a topic for another section, not this one. Pokebub (talk) 18:07, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Considering how the page is called “list of super smash bros. Series characters”, and not specifically regarding defaults only or playable only, I think it’s safe to keep them. Lou Cena (talk) 11:19, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I could see some justification for a list of the alternate costumes that are literally different characters (e.g. Alph), but even that I think isn't necessary and brings too much attention to a minor detail. Alternate genders are the same character and so shouldn't be spelled out. Toomai Glittershine The Different 17:41, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I’m pretty sure that aside from Robin and Corrin, all of the alternate genders are entirely different individuals. Even in the cases of Robin and Corrin, a few dialoge lines change them up a bit. I really don’t see the harm in having them there. I’m sorry if I sound too condescending about this. Lou Cena (talk) 17:48, 10 February 2019 (EST)

Well, now we run into the problem of where the cutoff is for an "entirely different individual". Are every single one of the Inklings different individuals? Should we count Pikachu Libré as a different Pikachu because it's a different gender as seen by the markings on its tail? Are the Pokémon used by the female Pokémon Trainer distinct individuals from the ones used by the male Pokémon Trainer, or do they share Pokémon for some reason? Can we consider Bayonetta 1 Bayo and Bayonetta 2 Bayo distinct individuals in the same way Link and Young Link were back in Melee? If we don't have a hardline distinction, things get messy quick. Ahemtoday (talk) 18:09, 10 February 2019 (EST)

There’s a pretty simple system actually: it depends on how many cosume spaces they take up. For example, half of corrin’s alts are female, and half are male. Half of Inklings are male, and half are female. However, only two pikachu alts are female, therefore they’re not major enough. Different outfits and different time periods do not neccesarily count as different individuals. Young Link was the exception because he had his own slot. He Koopalings are also another peculiar case. However, wince Bowser Jr. is only one costume and the others are all different characters, I’d say they possibly fall under this scopeLou Cena (talk) 18:15, 10 February 2019 (EST)

That's... pretty comprehensive, but we run into a problem with Inklings. See, there it's not just a change of outfit: it's a change of outfit (frequently with new clothing items like headphones and bandannas), ink color, skin color, and eye color. I'm not sure how else you interpret that other than as eight entirely seperate Inklings. There's also the strange case of Little Mac: half of his costumes in Smash 4 are wireframe, and that may or may not actually be a seperate individual - it's a little complicated, but the guy in the arcade Punch-Out!! neither resembles Little Mac or is called Little Mac, so he's at least as different as Robin or Corrin. But in Ultimate, only two of Little Mac's costumes are wireframe. Is he notable in one and then not notable in the other?

I understand both of your points. With Little Mac, the only way this works is by considering him notable in smash 4 and not notable in ultimate. But that’s pretty clearly the same Little Mac. Changing your chromosomes is significant enough to count when a wireframe version doesn’t count. If you want to argue about wireframe mac, I currently have a proposal on if major alternate costumes should be in the main infobox as long as the images are placed into tabs instead of on top of each other. And about the inklings, while they are thecnialy different individuals, they don’t have different names like the koopalings. Thus, only the default male inkling is considered major enough to be listed here. Lou Cena (talk) 18:50, 10 February 2019 (EST)

I’d like to make another point in support of having the alternate genders/characters: It wouldn’t be confusing at all, considering the word “alternate”. Also, in some cases (Corrin and Inkling are the prime examples here), the two genders are treated nearly as equals. The people against having them here may think it’s uneccesary, but there is absolutely nothing wrong that can come out of having them. Lou Cena (talk) 21:32, 10 February 2019 (EST)

You can repeat yourself all you want, there's no reason to have those tables on this article. The information is elsewhere as it should be. Please just drop this. Serpent  King 13:05, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I’ll drop it when you give me a reason why having them would be objectively wrong. Right now all you’re giving me is that it isn’t neccesary, but nothing about what harm it could cause. It won’t be confusing if they’re listed as alternate characters. You also mentioned that nobody says they main alternate costumes, but that’s an objectively false assumption. There is zero harm that ccan come out of having them here. Lou Cena (talk) 13:37, 11 February 2019 (EST)

You clearly aren't listening. It isn't necessary because it's not the point of the article. That in itself is the harm, to include them takes focus from what the article is trying to accomplish: being a comprehensive list of playable characters. Serpent  King 13:45, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I actually talked about how it doesn’t take focus from the list of playable characters. They’re called “alternate” for a reason. It doesn’t take focus away when they have a name that clearly paints them as secondary. Lou Cena (talk) 13:48, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Then you admit that they are secondary and therefore shouldn't be treated as base characters. Serpent  King 13:50, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Yes and no. They are undeniably secondary (I never even denied it in be first place), but they are still fully playable, and thus shouldn’t be ignored. You said the info was elsewhere, but said information is on multiple pages. Putting thtem here puts them all on one page in one section. Lou Cena (talk) 13:53, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Alternate costume (SSBU) Serpent  King 13:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I appreciate you giving me a link, but like I said, one section. Having alternate costumes mixed in like that is incredibly long to navigate. Wii Fit Trainer is near the bottom because W is near je end of the alphabet, while Corrin is all the way up top. It makes sense, but it’s a lot simpler having them in one section. This also doesn’t account for Alph not being in Brawl. Lou Cena (talk) 13:59, 11 February 2019 (EST)

For Brawl's you just go to the respective article. I am confused also what need is there to have a list like that, at what point would one need to know each character who has an alt? We could make an article just for that I suppose, but it simply wouldn't have enough content to justify its own existence. If smash ever comes to the point where literally every character is like this, then I think having such a list would be valid but until then, it's just not. Serpent  King 14:07, 11 February 2019 (EST)

8 characters have alternate costumes that turn them into different individuals. That’s enough content, especially considering how (and forgive me for bringing up Tekken again) Panda and Eddie are treated in Tekken 5 pretty much the exact same way as the 8 characters I’ve been bringing up all the time in-game. Yet, Tekken’s fans acknowledge those characters as fully playable, despite not having their own spot on the selection screen. Why would smash be any exception aside from the fact that the concept was introduced recently. Lou Cena (talk) 14:14, 11 February 2019 (EST)

They're not really different individuals at all, and changing your definition to fit whatever criticism others levy doesn't really help the argument at all. Within the context of Fire Emblem, male and female Corrin are literally the same person and their gender has zero impact on the game; they're extensions of the player and aren't "separate characters" at all. Peach's colour change to "Daisy" in Melee didn't merit its own table, and neither does this. All of the content contained in such a table is redundant, as the character pages themselves and Alternate costume (SSBU) already contain the same and more information. Your point about chromosomes is particularly absurd because these are fictional characters that don't have chromosomes and you'd have no way to measure them even if they are. You continue to say "what's the harm?", to which I would respond it has next to no value to start with, further clutters this page, and is redundant by virtue of other pages. – Emmett 14:37, 11 February 2019 (EST)

The reason why we didn’t count Daisy in Melee was because she was still called Peach, and that’s because Daisy’s face is much different than Peach’s. With the exception of Robin and Corrin, all of the genderswaps are different individuals, and don’t change their name because it refers to them as a species/occupation. Secondly, changing Corrin or Robin’s gender does in fact have an impact on the game, as they have different support lines depending on the gender. The chromosomes thing was just a fancy way of comparing alternate genders to characters like Ike or Cloud who change outfits or time periods instead of gender. Thirdly, you say that they have next to no value, but as I said before, neither to Panda and Eddie from Tekken. In the cases of both tekken and Smash, they’re both considered playable characters. However, Tekken’s fans also consider them characters, so why would smash be any different. Also, as I mentioned before, while I’m aware that the info was on other pages, it would be less scrolling to find them. Putting them here puts them in one section and in one page, so I wouldn’t say it’s redundant. And while there are enough costume characters that I believe it’s significant enough, it’s not enough to clutter the page. Alph and the Koopalings were on the page for months, and the page looked completely fine. I’m sorry if I sound rude, but I really do think that they should be on there. Lou Cena (talk) 15:07, 11 February 2019 (EST)

You've just undermined your entire argument. "The reason why we didn’t count Daisy in Melee was because she was still called Peach, and that’s because Daisy’s face is much different than Peach’s." Villager's appearances are barely demonstrably gendered in the first place, much less different enough that you can argue that they're patently different characters. Even if they were, the alternate costumes page documents all of this info and more in a better location, and I reject that this information is so highly sought out that it merits a section on this page to "minimise scrolling"; indeed, if minimising scrolling is of concern, the actually materially relevant content on the page, i.e. the PC table, is the only mandatory information. Every single character you listed in the gender table does not get a new name-- probably because they're the same character-- and their apperances are honestly irrelevant. Different support lines in FE do not change that the canon plot does not deviate based on Corrin and Robin's gender and is further not evidence that they are materially different characters in any way. I'd be more in favour of removing the Alph/Koopalings table than I would be keeping the gender table. As SK already noted, what occurs in Tekken and other wikis is irrelevant; multiple users here have argued that it is unnecessary and adds nothing to the page. – Emmett 15:20, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I vehemently disagree that what happens on other wikis is irrelevant. Alternate characters are alternate haracters. The same recognition should be given regardless of the game. However, as I’m being outvoted 6 to 1, I reluctantly accept defeat for now, and will not add the table back for a while. I may reconsider opening this discussion again, especially because I still adamantly stand by the notion that the table should be there, but I’m clearly not going anywhere as a new user arguing wih two admins. Honestly, part of why I think they should be there is because of their stock icons would be there too, rather than being mixed in with the 6300 other costumes. Lou Cena (talk) 18:14, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Instead of having a separate table, why don't just add a note stating such? Yes, characters who have that tend to change into a separate character entirely, but Pallete swaps of characters that are separate characters or genders could also have a note,[10], indicating that. Examples: Bowser Jr.[Can be any of the 7 Koopalings(or list them by name)], Olimar [Can be Alph], Robin/Inkling [female/male versions available]. Plus it's not clear that these characters have such swaps just by looking at the table. Wolff (talk) 16:59, 11 February 2019 (EST)

That sounds good, but having the stock icons shown feels a bit more complete. Not a bad suggestion though. Lou Cena (talk) 18:14, 11 February 2019 (EST)

We do not reopen discussion unless circumstances substantially change. Serpent  King 18:54, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Firstly, can you link me to a rule stating that? Secondly, what would count as a changed curcumstance? For example, if one of thhr DLC fighters had another haracter or gender for an alternate costume, would that allow me to reopen discussion about this? Lou Cena (talk) 21:52, 11 February 2019 (EST)

I think the alternate characters can list, the variable genders characters is not. Name is the most appropriate criterion, These variable genders characters use the same name, that means they're the same at least in Smash, for example, why these characters use profession or racial names? This shows their profession or race is a fighter, not individual.--Capstalker (talk) 21:49, 11 February 2019 (EST)

The alternate genders are mostly entirely different individuals though, which is why I listed them. In fact, their names do change in other languages, so I’d say that they fit in the same category as Alph. Lou Cena (talk) 21:52, 11 February 2019 (EST)

But as mentioned above, they use profession or race to name, which means that fighter refers to profession or race, can't think of them as different characters.--Capstalker (talk) 22:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)

That still doesn’t change the fact that their names change when their genders change in other languages. I’m glad you think we should have Alph and the koopalings here, but if their stock icons are here, then so should the alternate genders. Thay actually tend to be featured in marketing more often than Alph anyways (for example, Corrin adn WFT use both genders in the opening movie, while Alph is completely absent. ) Lou Cena (talk) 23:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)

Alph and Koopalings are different characters is no doubt about it, but the alternate genders not the case, their gender is customizable in original games, they just reproduce this function in Smash. --Capstalker (talk) 00:14, 12 February 2019 (EST)

I apologize for not making my point clear. Let me reitorate all of the current reasons why I believe that genderswapped characters should be listed here.

• One of the two primary reasons for adding the alternate genders was so that we didn’t have to dig through almost 6400 other costumes to see their stock icons. Not a particularly urgent addition, but the fact that so many people are vehemently against this.
• It was repeatedly brought up that all of the alternate costumes are on a page already. However, as I said before, they’re mixed in with almost 6400 other costumes. Acknowledging their existence on this page makes it less clutter.
• Scrolling through almost 6400 costumes is a pain. 6 alternate genders and 8 alternate characters is next to no clutter at all, so clutter is not an issue.
• One suggestion was to have a footnote saying if the character can br male or female. Again, the primary purpose of adding them was to place the stock icons here.
• Serpent King brought up that nobody says that they main Iggy or Wii Fit Trainer. The other major reason why I put them here in the first place was because there are people who main them.
• Genderswapped costumes are also some of the few to be consistently shown in marketing. Say all you want about miscelania not mattering, but the fact of the matter is that Nintendo acknowledges them, so why should SmashWiki ignore them and mix them in with almost 6400 other costumes? I’ve been seeing people say hat they aren’t relevant information, but they clearly are.
• The genderswaps do in fact get different names in laguages other than english, so I don’t personally see the fact that they share the same name in english as an issue at all.
• The fact that Tekken’s alternate characters are treated fully and Smash’s aren’t has been repeatedly deemed irrelevant. However, regardless of the game, or the fanbase, alternate characters are still alternate characters. It doesn’t change between games.
• It was brought up that even if Alph and the Koopalings should be here, the genderswaps should not because they’re either the same character or same profession. That is actually a fair arguement that I currently do not know how to debunk, so I’ll just leave this as evidence against me.
• To be continued when more info is gathered...

• A possible way of explaining this on the page: Along with alternate costume characters, some characters also have costumes hat change their gender. These characters are different individuals, but either share the same profession or species, or are avatar characters in their home series. Unlike the characters listed above, they do not hange their names in english, but do change their names in languages that are gender-dependent, such as spanish, french, or italian. Lou Cena (talk) 23:22, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Again, the two admins Emmet and Serpent King clearly think I’m a lunatic, so I don’t think this is going anywhere. But I just want to put all of my points in one little area so that it’s at least clear what i’m thinking. I apologize if I sound pretentious, but I adamantly believe that it’s relevant and straightforward info that deserves being on the page. Lou Cena (talk) 01:16, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Although I don't think it's necessary to list alternate genders, if we need to list them, I think should put the two icon same cell.--Capstalker (talk) 02:00, 12 February 2019 (EST)

Currently, I’m being outvoted on alternate genders being here 6 to 1, so I don’t expect it to happen. I do still believe the alternate genders should be acknowledged here though instead of being in with soon to be 6400 costumes (75 characters currently, 5 more coming, and 8 costumes each). However, putting them in the main cell just makes it look super uneven with the characters who have it. Lou Cena (talk) 02:21, 12 February 2019 (EST)

I think notes already makes list look uneven，and I don't understand why "Intended" on the list.--Capstalker (talk) 02:46, 12 February 2019 (EST)

The notes and intended sections are actually neccessary. I don’t understand why you would ever want to get rid of them. Either way, I still think alternate genders’ alternate genders should have their stock icons on the page. Lou Cena (talk) 04:18, 12 February 2019 (EST)