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== Fighter Numbers ==


== Kill the "non-playable characters" section and rename this to List of playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters ==
So in both the reveal trailer and the website, each fighter was given a number according to the order they were introduced into the series. The question I want to ask is if we should consider this something that deserves to be listed, on this page and on character infoboxes.


It's time we define this articles scope so we can quit having these long drawn out articles. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:49, 11 February 2019 (EST)
If we ''do'' end up going for listing fighter numbers on this page, it would also give us an official way to order the characters, since no game's CSS (before Ultimate) has every Smash character ever on it. Note that the table can be sorted by any column, so viewers can still order characters alphabetically or however.
:Slight change to this proposal (if anyone who has already voted has a problem with it leave a comment below), This article is to be split into '''List of playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters''' and '''List of non-playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters.''' <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 18:58, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::If this page is going to be a list of '''all''' playable characters (as opposed to just the playable fighters on the character select screen), there should probably be an addendum about [[Master Hand (SSBU)]]. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 19:22, 27 February 2019 (EST)


===Support===
(I would have made this a proposal, but I made my account specifically to do that and I don't want to wait four days.)
# '''Remove.''' According to the official Smash website, the playable characters are known as "fighters". I propose changing the name of the article to "List of Super Smash Bros. fighters". An article including all (or just the non-playable) characters in Smash could be made with this article's current title as a compromise. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 17:34, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Support if and only if''' the non-playable characters receive their own article. If this is decided against, then I oppose. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Support, as long as we define character'''. Are Smash Run enemies considered characters? Subspace? WoL? If not, then why not? Why are boss characters counted then? If we were to list all the characters in the ''Smash'' series, this page'll be incredibly long. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 17:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#:This article would become only playable characters, another one created for nonplayables...this is more of a split than a move now that I think on it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#Definitely '''lop that section off into its own article.''' I made a section about this earlier (though without a vote), so of course I'm on board. We can hash out stuff like alternate characters and genders and what an NPC should be later, but if one thing gets done I'd want it to be that article getting sliced. (Also, I second Smore's idea of making this page into "Fighters" or "List of SSB fighters" or something of that nature.) [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:26, 12 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Immence support''' The chart in this page has been moved to the page [[non-playable characters]] and it fits more on that page anyway. it just makes sense to have this page be exclusivly playable charecters.[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra3678]] ([[User talk:Xtra3678|talk]]) 08:04, 25 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Support.''' A page for List of Super Smash Bros. fighters and a separate on with NPCs sounds good. The Character page could be left as a redirect. --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 18:39, 4 March 2019 (EST)


===Oppose===
'''Edit:''' Be sure to also check out [[Template talk:Infobox Character General#Fighter Numbers|my related discussion point on the character infobox talk page]]!
===Neutral===
*'''Depends''': I support this on the basis of two circumstances: that the non-playable characters get their own page, and that major alternate characters are listed under the main ones. Alternate characters are ''still'' playable, therefore deserve having a section here. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::Would not be against having a nonplayable article. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::We could also have a small section for background characters, and links to the Pokemon and AT list articles<span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:11, 11 February 2019 (EST)


==Don't understand==
Vote below. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
What does he mean by "Killing the non-playable character section and renaming it"? [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] [[User talk:Son Daniel|(talk page)]] 23:53, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
:That was from a year ago. I remember there was a table for several boss characters on this page, and it was instead named list of characters in the series or something along those lines. I think that’s the proposal that got this page renamed and made a new page for nonplayable characters. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 00:01, April 9, 2020 (EDT)


== Customizable and Transformation ==
=== Yes, list the numbers of each character ===
# '''Support.''' I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. It's the most official order for every fighter currently in Smash, it can easily be extended, and it's not as though it would be a huge undertaking to put them there. As for character infoboxes, we already list character's species, gender, and place of origin; and I would argue that these numbers are more pertinent to Smash than all of those. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''List the numbers, but don't sort them by default in that order.''' I think it should be an option to list them by Ultimate's official order, but it's not an order that any other installment uses, so it might be overemphasizing Ultimate if we used that as the basis of the list. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 17:48, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''List the numbers.''' I agree! If we can make it official, then let's do it! [[User:Dragonfirebreath25|Dragonfirebreath25]] ([[User talk:Dragonfirebreath25|talk]]) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#I agree with Nyargleblargle. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 17:52, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Put the numbers in a column.''' That way, people can sort by them if they want to. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:56, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#Agreed. It is official after all. Definitely needs a column. [[User:Master Zach|Master Zach]] ([[User talk:Master Zach|talk]]) 17:58, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Ultimate Support'''. I did just do it after all. [[User: RobSir_zx|<span style="color:orange">Rob</span>]][[User talk:RobSir_zx|<span style="color:blue">'''Sir '''</span>]][[File:RobSir-sig.jpg|16px]] [[Special:Contributions/RobSir zx|<span style="color:red">zx</span>]] 19:32, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Support''' Fully agree with Nyargleblargle. <s>In addition, the characters are now sorted ingame by fighter number.</s> [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 02:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Even official media from Ultimate is using the numbers''' https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/fighter/index.html[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#*'''The order in Smash ultimate fighter selection sorting follow the official number order'''[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#*'''It is not arbitrary and uses a historical precedent in the order of fighters first seen by the public, as can be seen here:''' https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/14/what-do-smash-ultimates-character-numbers-mean/ [[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#*:The precedent itself is pretty arbitrary, and as I state in my argument below, doesn't appear to serve a useful purpose unless we later find it's something important in-game like the character unlock order (and even then, that means it's only important for the SSBU pages, not really this one). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''I agree with Shideraven'''. The only reason I do is because the official website numbers them. I think we should at least include the numbers in the character's info box. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 23:33, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#I '''support''' even if it's just putting the number in the Smash Ultimate infoboxes. There's not reason we should ignore the numbers entirely [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 06:29, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
#<s>(I am just an anonymous user, so my statement may not mean much.) '''I''' feel like we should put the characters in their numbered order. Yes, this is the first time we have an actual confirmed order. The last time this happened (in a sense) on the wiki was for ''Smash 64'', where the characters matched their select screen locations. None since have matched the order like that on the wiki, instead being ordered by the game series inclusion into ''Smash'' with a few exceptions. '''One''' of the concerns I saw in a counterargument was that it only applies to ''Ultimate''. Yes, it currently does only apply to ''Ultimate'', and should probably only be applied to the correlating ''Ultimate'' pages, including the main page. “But Echo Fighters will be out of place”, only Lucina and Dark Pit would be since we’d keep the newcomers page. If they were to keep the numbers and Daisy were to become her own fighter in a possible 6th installment, then that would only apply to the 6th installment and the correlating pages. '''Another''' concern I saw was “people can sort by them if they want to”: I cannot see that being possible with the current list. Unless it was for it to be alphabetical like Poké Ball Pokémon. '''On''' the character pages, we can do something like what we’re doing to the stages that were in ''Melee''. For example, Onett is “'''Eagleland: Onett'''”. The characters on their Ultimate page can be like “'''10: Ness'''”. '''I''' really like how it is currently done on the ''Mario Wiki'' for ''Ultimate'' https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate With the only surprising thing being that it’s on the ''Mario Wiki'' and not the ''Smash Bros. Wiki.'' They even included the character’s series’ logo, and if there’s additional info (Like with Pokémon Trainer and pallet swaps). All that said, I feel like we should at least sort them by their number/select-screen-location.</s> [[User:47.199.44.226|47.199.44.226]] ([[User talk:47.199.44.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.199.44.226|contribs]]) 12:34pm, 14 August 2018 (EDT) (<--I posted this here by Mistake)
#Just thought I'd bring up that the characters are sorted by their number in the actual game. During the Direct, Sakurai said, "Stages are now in chronological order, just like the fighters," or something along those lines. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 21:27, 17 August 2018 (EDT)


Use background color to represent "Customizable" and "Transformation" conflict with "Unlockable", and these have notes. so should delete.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 23:05, 14 February 2019 (EST)
=== No, the numbers aren't notable enough ===
#'''No.''' I don't see any ''actual'' supporting arguments here.
#*"It could be official." Even ignoring the "could", [[SW:OFFICIAL]] says "so what?". I'd also like to note that the numbers are extremely arbitrary in the sense that they depend on the order Sakurai chose to reveal characters in the past, so they're not particularly ''useful'' unless we determine they have an in-game purpose.
#*"It can easily be extended." Yes but ''will'' it be? If the next game ignores the numbers, we're left with an incomplete set and might have to remove them. And what happens if someone gets decloned? Melee's clones were absolutely clones at the time; would Sakurai have assigned them "echo" status if he'd considered the idea? We might end up with a per-game list of numbers and that kind of defeats the purpose.
#*"It's not hard to add them." ...so what? A lot of stuff is "easy", that doesn't mean it's correct.
#:Now, here's my main argument for leaving the numbers out: There's currently no evidence that the numbers are actually ''important''. I happen to think they're just marketing hype for the "all veterans are returning" shtick. If it turns out that they designate the unlock order or something else in-game, then sure add them to the relevant SSBU pages. (After all, "it's easy", so there's no need to scramble to do it now, right?) But for now? No thanks. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 10:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#::Your second point is honestly a pretty big concern. Maybe we could integrate the numbers into the Ultimate column somehow as a solution for the incomplete set thing?
#::However, I don't think [[SW:OFFICIAL]] means that we shouldn't offer the numbering as an option to sort through the list ''at all''; there's not really any precedent for ignoring official info entirely as far as I can recall. We cover unofficial terms and subjects because that makes it easier to view comprehensive information about the series, so I don't see why that shouldn't be the case for official material as well. I could see plenty of people choosing to sort this list based on Ultimate's order because of how it kind of encapsulates the evolution of the roster. Also, as for the marketing hype point you made, we discuss the Dojo and Pics of the Day pretty often and reference them in articles, so why not do the same for this game's marketing materials? [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 19:29, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#:::Yes the officialness point is a weak one, I'm not going to try to debate it. More important are the "what about the future" and "it's not particularly useful" ones. In fact, I thought of something to add to the "not useful" point: even though Sonic was practically added to Brawl after everyone else, late enough to cause a delay, he's not the last Brawl newcomer in the Sakurai Numbers because he was revealed on the website before Dedede and a bunch of others. It's almost anti-useful in that sense.
#:::The pic-of-the-day stuff is different because it generally always contained in-game content. As far as we know, the numbers do not exist in-game. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 22:48, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Nah''' The numbering order is confusing, and overall, it's just not important enough to have it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:32, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#:What I mean by confusing by the way is that it makes no sense to have "echo" characters listed as the same character, plus it could easily get confused that these numbers are actually character IDs, which they aren't. Also, there's the fact that this order only applies to one game of 5. As far as I know, none of the other games number their characters this way.
#:Also sorry for the revert, I didn't know this conversation existed., but either way, a consensus should be reached before the change is implemented <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:38, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#::This is indeed an additional good point. The fact that clones are marked as a non-number (i.e. a number plus an additional marking) means the entire list cannot be treated as a bunch of numbers. This also aligns with my earlier point about the future - say Daisy gets decloned in SSB6, she goes from 13e to 65 and pushes down everyone after that. Then the whole thing's permanently out of whack until we scale back down to only caring about it on a per-game basis (which isn't relevant to this page specifically). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Omit them.''' Toom and SK have hit the main points for me. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:13, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
#Whoops! I feel that I posted on the wrong discussion page. I was asking about the characters' numbers on ''Ultimate's'' talk page (https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate) when "[[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]]" told me it was being discussed here. I was under the impression that "Awesomelink234" meant that the discussion for Ultimate's page (and corresponding character pages) was here. If this discussion is for the general list of playable character in ''Smash'', then '''I do not see it working for the previously stated''', as it is just a general list for the series as a whole and is subject to change in the future. Number currently only apply to ''Ultimate''. [[User:47.199.44.226|47.199.44.226]] ([[User talk:47.199.44.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.199.44.226|contribs]]) 12:34am, 16 August 2018 (EDT)
:Well then if it only applies to ''Ultimate'', just put the fighter numbers on its character template and leave the rest of them alone. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 21:25, 17 August 2018 (EDT)


I wasn't ''hugely'' on board with those when they were added either, but I came around while I was editing their colors to be not-terrible.
===Neutral===
#I think that at this stage it might be best to wait for the game's release and see if these numbers are used anywhere in the game. If they turn out to just be a trailer thing then no, but if they are actually used in the game somewhere then yes. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 07:09, 25 June 2018 (EDT)


* I presume the reason "Customizable" exists is because there's some debate as to whether Mii Fighters count as unlockable, considering you can create them immediately after starting the game. In any case, the "Customizable" background color is a subset of the unlockable color. It's like complaining the 3DS Unlockable color conflicts with the regular one.
---
* As for transformation characters, they're considered an extension of another character, so the character that actually has a CSS slot is the one that gets the color. Which makes sense to me: it's not like you can unlock Zelda and ''not'' Sheik.


I think the table is still perfectly understandable with this information in place, so I reckon it should stay. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:53, 15 February 2019 (EST)
Alright, looking back on this: it is 10-2 in favor of adding the numbers. If that's not consensus, at least votecount-wise, I'm not sure what is. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ahemtoday|contribs]]) 04:40, 14 August 2018 (EDT)</small>
:Just because a lot of people want something done doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing. I look over the support votes and I don't see a whole lot of ''reasons'' aside from "we should do it because it's official". On the other hand, the oppose section has several reasons that votes in the support section have yet to counter. In any case, I think we should wait for the game to be out before we make a decision, because the most important thing is if the numbers are in-game as opposed to simply in promotional content. (It won't really help their case on ''this'' page, but in SSBU infoboxes and such.) [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 21:34, 14 August 2018 (EDT)


==Move==
So the game's out. I reckon it's time to revisit this discussion and come to a conclusion. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 14:56, 10 December 2018 (EST)
I believe that the page [[non-playable character]] shows all the info on this page about npc's and more, and thus the info on this page should be removed. I also believe that this page should be moved to the page [[playable characters]] I would like to hear other peoples thoughts about this though before doing this.[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra3678]] ([[User talk:Xtra3678|talk]]) 08:12, 25 February 2019 (EST)


Back to this topic again, as the draft appears to be done and implemented on [[non-playable characters]] and thus, it feels like it is the best idea to remove all npc information on this page, and move this pages address to [[List of playable Characters]], or [[Playable Characters]]. [[User:Xtra3678|<span style="color: Blue;">'''Xtra'''</span>]] [[File:Shulk_SSBU_foruser.png|25px]] [[User_talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color: Purple;">'''Talk'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: #CC0000">'''Edits'''</span>]] 13:51, March 17, 2019 (EDT)
== NPC Specification ==
:I think the new name of this article should be '''Fighters''' (or '''Playable Characters'''), with '''List of fighters''' (or '''List of playable characters''') redirecting to it. In the same respect, I believe [[List of Super Smash Bros. series characters]], [[List of Characters]], and [[Characters]] should redirect to a disambiguation page in case people are looking for [[Non-playable characters]]. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 21:42, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
::I agree. Right now the title is a little too long.
::Sounds reasonable to me. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:40, March 27, 2019 (EDT)


I agree with the move. Since we split this page and the NPC page, we should clarify playability. Also, why on earth is this title so long right now? Instead of saying “List of...” just have it as “playable character” or “fighter”. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:38, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
If we're putting notes about Ridley's Boss/Hazard appearances in the Playable Characters chart, shouldn't we also have ones for Charizard and Little Mac's Pokeball/Assist Trophy appearances? It feels a bit inconsistent not to. --[[User:Burb|Burb]] ([[User talk:Burb|talk]]) 08:12, 15 June 2018 (EDT)


Should be Fighter. It's the term that's most often used to describe playable characters by official sources, and it's self-explanatory in regard to playability. --[[User:Burb|Burb]] ([[User talk:Burb|talk]]) 15:46, May 23, 2019 (EDT)
== Smash Bros. Universe unlockable characters ==


Bump. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:12, May 30, 2019 (EDT)
It has been confirmed in the [https://youtu.be/akohTFyGu88?t=22m32s Nintendo Direct: E3 2018] that your starting roster is the original N64 roster, and everyone else will be unlockable. It is discussable if the 4 unlockable N64 characters will be unlockabe too or not, but looking at how it was presented: all 12 characters faded in as he said which were available from the start, and all other characters slided in as he talked about unlocking characters, making it look like all 12 original will be available from the start. [[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 08:17, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
:The direct didn't use definitive wording. Your roster ''may'' be as small as the original fighters. I don't think that's confirmation. It's more like when Sakurai said there might be one or two more third-party characters in Brawl. He didn't mean it literally; he was introducing it as a concept. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 20:56, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
::According to [https://youtu.be/Cb3gWV-3_nE?t=3m26s GameXplain's video coverage] of the Famitsu interview of Sakurai and the Ultimate's development; it sounds like it's definitely decided that the starting roster is the Smash 64 roster. At least the non-Smash 64 characters can be marked as unlockable.
::On the topic of if the unlockable Smash 64 characters will be starters or unlockable; as the statement was that the Smash 64 characters were starters, and not the starter Smash 64 characters were the starters, all 12 should be expected to be unlocked. Looking back at the E3 2018 video, all 12 character faded in (the unlockable a moment after) as he talked about the starters, and everyone else slided in whilst he talked about unlockables.
::Either way, I think it's starting to be pretty clear that all the non-core 12 characters will be unlockables.
::[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
Given that we know now the game starts with the original eight characters, why do we still have the citation that it's unknown if the Mii Fighters will be unlockable? [[User:Euraj|Euraj]] ([[User talk:Euraj|talk]]) 15:11, 30 November 2018 (EST)


Um, I have yet to see anyone ''against'' the idea, and the move notice has been up for months now. Maybe we should just go ahead. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:59, May 30, 2019 (EDT)
==Wario Was INTENDED for Melee==


Yeah there's absolutely no reason to move this page. Like whatsoever. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 01:09, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
If someone can put intended there he was intended. Source Gaming Sourced many interviews with Sakarai stating had there been more time, Wario wouldve been the first to get in: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/
:How come? We don’t need to call this page “List of Super Smash Bros. Series Characters” when shorter alternatives exist. We especially don’t need to call this page “List of”, especially when [[unlockable character|other]] [[up tilt|pages]] that are also lists are simply called “unlockable character” and “up tilt”. There’s more to this page than the list; it’s also a description of veterans and newcomers. We don’t need a seven-word title when a one- or two-word title would suffice. I know redirects exist, but there’s no reason the main page should have such a bloated title. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 01:28, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
[[User:WARIOLOAFER|WarioLoafer]]
::Those are not simply lists; they also have a term to define and discuss. "Character" is self-explanatory enough that it does not require much in the way of definition, so this page is primarily a list - and generally speaking, lists on wikis include "List of" in the title. The only shortened form I might be willing to consider would be "List of characters", but even that seems like an unnecessary change to my mind. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 09:30, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
:::”Character” was already off the table, because yeah, I agree, it’s too simple. I was thinking of “Fighter”, since that’s what Salurai mostly refers to them anyways. However, “List of Characters”, “List of Playable Characters”, or “List of Fighters” is actually pretty fair. What deems that unnecessary? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 10:40, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
::::I mean the reason this was named charecter was because it used to include npcs but it no longer includes them so i see no reason to call it charecter anymore, because we can now higher specify its purpose to fighters instead of just charecters. <span style="background:#ea244a;border:outset #906 5px">'''[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra]][[File:Xtra_headpng.png|20px]][[User talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color:Lime">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: Gold">Edits</span>]]'''</span> 10:52, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I do think that "fighter" as a term is less preferable to use in the page title than "character" or "playable character". I suppose "List of playable characters" could be acceptable as well. But I would certainly encourage you to wait for more input before moving such a major page. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:02, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
::::::My idea: Akin to the [[boss]] page, descriptions could be given to each of the fighters in order to flesh out the article. In that case, this article could possibly lose the 'list of' modifier and become 'playable character' or 'fighter'. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 15:13, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::This sounds good in concept, but it’s just going to be bloated if we do this with 80 characters. The format of this page is fine. I just think the name should be shortened. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:00, May 31, 2019 (EDT)


I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring: The article that has the big ol' table of all the stages is titled [[Stage]]. The article that has the big ol' table of all the items is titled [[Item]]. The [[Mode]] article may not have a big ol' table, but it does list all the modes and is ''also'' listed in the sidebar like the rest. If we follow that convention, this page should be titled "Character" or "Fighter". [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 16:24, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
== About the perfect attendance crew section ==


After further consideration, I'm inclined to support "List of playable characters" over all other options. Can I get an informal Support/Oppose tally on that? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 17:51, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
It says that the original 12 will be starters in Ultimate, but on those four fighter pages and the Ultimate page itself it is said that is unknown. If those pages say that then why do we have that information in that section? [[File:George Jones.jpg|25px]] [[User:George Jones|George Jones]] [[File:Walls Can Fall.jpg|25px]] 21:45, 27 July 2018 (EDT)
:You were actually the only one who opposed a move in general, and since you support a move now, that means there are no oppositions. To specify what each one of us wants, You and I want to rename it to “List of playable characters”, Xtra wanted to rename it to simply “playable characters”, Smore wanted to rename it “Fighter”, I don’t know what Ahemtoday wants, and we may need to have more discussion on which one to rename it too. I think we have a solid consensus that the page should be given a shorter title; it’s what to call it that we’re disagreeing on now. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:03, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
:By leaving them blank since we don't know, that happens to also be the definition of "starter character" for the table. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:08, 27 July 2018 (EDT)
:'''Oppose''' Granted, this page is primarily a list, but so are other similar pages such as [[non-playable character]] and [[stage]]. More content can always be added (e.g. timeline of when the characters were added; facts and figures on character representation within each game; alternate costume table; etc.) My vote is for '''Fighter''', but I also could get behind '''Playable Character''' with a reference to the term 'fighter' near the beginning of the article (similar to articles with both fan-given and official names). -Also, as Ahemtoday pointed out, all the sidebar articles using the same naming convention would look slick.  [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 23:37, June 2, 2019 (EDT)


Throw my hat in the ring for '''Fighter'''. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:56, June 3, 2019 (EDT)
== I don't really think the "non-playable characters" section should be on this page. ==


My vote is for '''Fighter''' as well. — [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]] ([[User talk:Ardub23|talk]]) 23:26, June 9, 2019 (EDT)
I just got done editing its "Notes" subsection, and working on it made me think about whether it really should be there. Honestly, I don't think it should, and here's a numbered list of reasons as to why:


:I'm okay with '''Fighter'''. Sakurai likes to call them fighters and the term has been common in the Smash community. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 11:16, June 10, 2019 (EDT)
# '''The entire rest of the page is about playable characters.''' Including stage bosses on a page that is mainly about ''playable'' fighters just seems strange to me. I could forgive it if this was a Mortal Kombat situation where the bosses are basically just overpowered regular characters you can't select, but the problem is:
::I agree with calling it '''Fighter''', it's easy to understand and convenient. There are a lot of page description characters that forget to add playable premises, Fighters is no ambiguity.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 12:19, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
# '''Most characters on that list behave nothing like playable fighters.''' Tabuu and Metal Face are in no way beholden to the same rules as regular fighters, which makes it weird that they're on this page. The notes on Sandbag literally admit it's not treated as a fighter anymore.
:::If my vote counts for anything, I am also in favor of '''Fighter''', so it can match [[Boss]] and [[Stage]]. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 18:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
# '''The list is a mishmash of characters with completely different roles, with barely any common thread between them.''' Multi-Man Smash teams, Sandbag, stage bosses, Subspace bosses, regular stage hazards, old bosses that are just variations of fighters - the list is ''all'' over the place. And, yes, there's a distinct definition on the page of what the list includes, but the problem is:
# '''The definition of the list - "can fully interact with playable characters in-game, but are normally non-playable" - could also extend to every defeatable Assist Trophy and every single Subspace and Smash Run enemy.''' Of course I'm not suggesting we actually add all of these in, but the point is: if we actually were comprehensive about this list, it would be ludicrously massive.


So far it looks like everyone except for me and Miles agree on Fighter. I do think we need to shorten this title, but I’m actually relatively flexible. I think Fighter would actually work, though we should probably have more discussion and more reasons given before moving this page. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:03, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
So, in short, the list is so broad that it's a jumble of miscellaneous information shoved into an article that it's not really under the purview of. What do we do about it?
:Each of the fighters in the game have "As a playable character" in their playable sections on their character pages as well as trivia pages. However, in some cases, I think it is inconstantly used as fighter. A similar inconstancy would be using "universe" over "series" and vise-versa on numerous pages. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 19:13, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
::Worse comes to worse, we change “as a playable character” to “as a fighter” everywhere. But the two words are interchangeable anyways. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:31, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
:::Multiple articles (e.g. [[stage]]) have different names (e.g. Japanese, English, official, fan) for themselves. I don't think the inconsistency is a big issue. People know that "fighter" and "playable character" (as well as "character" in context) are interchangeable. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 20:59, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
::::'''No opinion''' <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:37, June 16, 2019 (EDT)


'''Bump'''. While it is almost unanimous to move this page to “Fighter” (it does seem truly unanimous that the page should be moved, Miles is suggesting a different move, and Serpent King offered a neutral stance), I believe more discussion should be required, since this is a page that will always have a link on the left side of the page (which would need to be changed when this is moved, so that the link isn’t a redirect). Any comment, particularly from the other two crats, would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 16:30, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
Well, my suggestion is as follows:
:Wait. Is this diccusion to change what we refer to the playable characters as, or changing the the page's title from ''"List of Super Smash Bros. series characters''" to "''List of Playable Characters''" or "''List of Fighters''"? If it's the latter, I would think that '''Playable Character''' would makes more sense for what the page is about. But that's just me. Then again, official sources do list them as '''fighters''', and "Playable Character" can simply be mentioned. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 16:39, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
::We are currently discussing changing the name of this page to '''Fighter''', for consistency with [[Stage]], [[Mode]], and [[Item]]. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 01:21, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
:::Fighters are more appropriate than playable characters, because BOSS is also playable at certain times.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 06:57, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
::::'''Support moving to "fighter"''' because it gets the point across. Appending "playable" is superfluous and just a mouthful. If it really comes to having to rename "As a playable character" to "As a fighter", or having the term "fighter" on the sidebar and navigation templates, so be it. Oh, and this page is more than just a "list" so I don't want to keep that in the name. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 17:13, June 23, 2019 (EDT)


But that is only changing the name of the page itself, and rewriting it to match, right? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 17:27, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
# '''Remove the current form of the list from this page entirely.''' As I said above, the page is about playable characters aside from that one segment, and many characters in that segment don't resemble fighters at all.
:I would assume so. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 17:31, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
# '''Add a cross-game table to the [[Boss]] page.''' This table can include the Hands, Subspace bosses, and stage bosses - but not Sandbag or the Flying Man or whatever.
::Technically, we don’t really need to change a lot of info though. Calling this page just a “list” is a huge stretch, since it’s a also a description of newcomers and veterans. Anyways, 8 people want to move this to “Fighter”, 2 have suggested “playable character”, and 1 suggested “List of Playable characters”. Several of the “Fighter” people also thoroughly explained their point that the term got the definition across and was officially used. I think we’ve reached a consensus. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:19, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
# '''The rest of the information is already elsewhere on the site.''' The Flying Man and Nabbit don't fill up a table on their own, so they don't really need one. Same with Sandbag. There's already the [[enemy team]]] page to get the Fighting Team information.
:::I was just wondering. Simply just "Fighter" ''would'' be more inline with the other page types. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 15:29, June 24, 2019 (EDT)


== Pikmin ==
It's voting time! [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)


Now that the move discussion has been finished, I was wondering if it would be alright to add the Pikmin to the Olimar's section in the table. They are on the the character template in parenthesis like Luma, but aren't on here. While I know the character in America is called just Olimar, I still think the section should be called "Pikmin and Olimar", because both are playable fighters. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 12:35, June 26, 2019 (EDT)
=== Remove the NPC Table ===


Well, every character on the table uses the same name they have on the CSS in American English. Why should we deviate from that? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:24, June 26, 2019 (EDT)
# '''Remove it.''' I mean, I brought it up in the first place. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
:While I understand that, I think it is a disservice that the Pikmin are no where on this page. They are still classified as fighters, even if they are not in the name. And the character is still called Pikmin and Olimar in Japan, so including them wouldn't be that far out, even if just as a subscript or in parenthesis like in the template. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 18:44, June 26, 2019 (EDT)
# '''Remove.''' Change the name of the article to "List of Super Smash Bros. series fighters". An article including all characters in Smash could be made with this article's current title as a compromise. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 00:16, 19 August 2018 (EDT)


== Add fighter numbers ==
=== Keep the NPC Table ===
# The page is not strictly about playable characters. The name even says "List of Super Smash Bros. series characters"; nowhere does that imply exclusively covering playable ones. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:11, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#:(Am I allowed to reply in indents like this?) Indeed it doesn't, but by that logic, this page should technically include every character that's ever been in Smash Bros.: Assist Trophies, Subspace enemies, and non-fighting stage hazards like Kraid included. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:19, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#::(You are, but use #s and colons instead of spaces; the latter messes with how it looks on the page.) Perhaps I wasn't clear: I'm not necessarily supporting keeping it as I am pointing out a flaw in your argument; this page isn't exclusively "playable characters" as you have made it out to be, and instead is generally about characters. Though, if you want a counter to your claim that we should include everything, pages shouldn't be so large that they cannot load; the one we are discussing is already 37KB in size, and including all references to every character would make it even bigger. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:35, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#:::I'll concede the page isn't currently exclusively about playable characters, and that we shouldn't include literally every character ever mentioned in Smash Brothers. However, if we ''aren't'' going to mention literally everyone, we need to draw a distinct line between what's included and what isn't - and the current line is fuzzy at best, wherein every Smash Run enemy and every damageable Assist Trophy "should" be included in the NPC table according to the definition of what goes there (but ''not'' according to common sense). With this in mind, I'd say that ''making'' the page about playable characters would draw a completely unambiguous line, fix all the issues I mentioned previously, and trim down the page. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 11:57, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#::::Maybe we define it as characters that are mandatory to fight in a single player mode but cannot be selected in multiplayer? This would include Subspace enemies and bosses but exclude Assist Trophies, stage bosses, and Smash Run enemies. I’m sure it could be optimized further to be more sensible. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 21:43, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
#:::::That definition leaves us with 58 characters on that list, most of which are stuff like Primids and Floows. Not really a fan of having such a bloated list. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:05, 12 August 2018 (EDT)


Since the numbers are "canonical" in Ultimate, why not list the official numbers as an additional column? Might be awkward for Pokemon Trainer (who doesn't have a number, just the individual Pokemon do) but. -[[User:The T|The T]] ([[User talk:The T|talk]]) 10:48, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
== Unused Brawl Characters ==
:[[Talk:Fighter/Archive_3#Fighter_Numbers|There was a long discussion about this]], but basically: there is absolutely no indication that these numbers will be useful for titles that aren't Ultimate, or will even remain consistent after it. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 10:54, September 13, 2019 (EDT)


== Transformation cell color ==
According to Sakurai, Villager, Pac-Man and the Miis were all supposed to end up in Brawl but they didn't for varying reason. Should they be mentioned on the table since other cut characters are mentioned? (Dr Mario, Roy, Ice Climbers etc.). Thanks [[User:Ice Cream Melee|Ice Cream Melee]] ([[User talk:Ice Cream Melee|talk]]) 10:15, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
:The same is also true for Chrom in Smash 4 [[User:Ice Cream Melee|Ice Cream Melee]] ([[User talk:Ice Cream Melee|talk]]) 10:18, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
::The difference there is that they're not necessarily unused, but rather "considered but never implemented". [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:04, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
:::Ice Climbers in Smash 4? They're not unused per say but they're still on the chart. [[User:Ice Cream Melee|Ice Cream Melee]] ([[User talk:Ice Cream Melee|talk]]) 18:26, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
::::The Ice Climbers were planned to be in the game, and Sakurai said that his team tried multiple things to simply get them to run on the 3DS, but it just couldn't handle the duo. Meanwhile, for example, Pac-Man was a mere suggestion to Sakurai (by, of all people, Shigeru Miyamoto), but Sakurai turned it down because he thought his pizza-shape design would not benefit him well. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 18:42, 16 September 2018 (EDT)


The transformation cell color is currently pretty similar to the unlockable character color. Could we make it a little bluer, less gray? I can barely tell that Charizard is any different from Captain Falcon or Chrom on Ultimate. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 17:16, September 23, 2019 (EDT)
== Ultimate's manual actually DOES have heads for Squirtle, Ivysaur, Charizard, and the Miis ==
Seeing the checkmarks in the table always kind of bugged me, but [https://imgur.com/bkb5l9n these] [https://imgur.com/A2i2YeS two] images show official "stock icons" that we can use.
:Squirtle's icon also appears regarding the Merman spirit in the World of Light trailer, so it looks like these icons will be used in-game as well. [[User:Zowayix|Zowayix]] ([[User talk:Zowayix|talk]]) 08:49, 8 November 2018 (EST)


== Delete the repeat ==
== Should alternate genders be added to the “alternate costume characters” section? ==


Notes 15 and 21 are nearly identical, and one should be removed. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 22:50, February 1, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
I don’t see anybreason not to. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:34, 9 February 2019 (EST)
:Correction: 16 and 21, not 15. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 21:51, February 8, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
::Um, can someone please make that edit? I haven't become autoconfirmed so I can't. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 20:34, March 3, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
:::I got it. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:40, March 3, 2020 (EST)


== Some trivia points that need to be purged ==
I mean, I'd argue the reason is that they aren't really seperate characters. Their names don't differ, they don't have different announcer clips, and most importantly, they're all either alternate variations of a character or different generic members of one species or occupation.


''*''Smash 4'' is the first game to feature playable female swordfighters: [[Lucina]], female [[Robin]], female [[Corrin]], and female [[Mii Swordfighter]].
Also, what makes a character's gender being changed any different than their model being significantly changed in any other way? If we're going to mark down female Corrin as notable enough to be considered a seperate character, I would argue we would also have to consider Builder Mario and Meta Ridley as seperate characters as well. Advent Children Cloud and Bayonetta 1 Bayo, at least, since their entire render pose changes. Heck, in half the Ice Climbers' alts you're playing as Nana instead of Popo, so do we need to mark that down? Do all eight Inkling alts count as seperate characters due to the massive variations in models and ink color between them?
**[[Koopalings|Wendy O. Koopa]], who appears as an alternate costume for Bowser Jr., is the first female villain to be a playable character in the series.''
It's kind of arbitrary if a playable character is male or female, no? Especially since Peach has both used weapons in Smash and was an antagonist in Paper Mario TTYD (albiet brainwashed) Samus being the only female character in the first game is notable though, since it was the first game.


''*[[Wario]] is the only character prior to ''Ultimate'' to debut as a starter before becoming unlockable in another game, as well as the only one prior to ''Smash 4'' to have never had fewer than 8 palette swaps.
What I'm saying is, if we allow alternate costumes that ''don't'' have different names, then the list just clogs up into "every mildly notable alternate costume". So I'd say a hardline distinction has to be drawn. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:52, 9 February 2019 (EST)
*Prior to ''Ultimate'', the only unlockable characters whose playable status was not kept a secret prior to release were {{SSBB|Snake}} and {{SSBB|Sonic}} in ''Brawl'', and {{SSB4|Lucina}} in ''Smash 4''.
*Lucina and Wendy O. Koopa (the latter of whom is playable as an alternate model swap for Bowser Jr.) are also the first two unlockable female characters in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. Unlike Lucina however, it is impossible to face Wendy in an unlock match (due to her only being accessible as a playable character through Bowser Jr.'s alternate costumes).''
While notable, these are better left on [[Alternate costume]] and [[Unlockable character]] (and I think they're already there, since this trivia section is excessively long.


''**Conversely, the [[Koopalings]] and the [[Hero]]es from {{uv|Dragon Quest}} ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest III|III]]'', ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest IV|IV]]'' and ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest VIII|VIII]]'' are the only alternate characters who debuted before their base fighter.''
== Gender and alternate characters ==
While the main trivia this is part of makes sense (Alph and Leaf didn't become costumes until Olimar and Red's later appearances), this seems to be only referring to these characters' home series. The Koopalings/Bowser Jr. and Heroes all became playable in Smash in the same game


''*[[Master Hand]] is playable for one level during [[World of Light]] in ''Ultimate'' ''
I believe should not be listed here because they are not base characters, they do not appear on the roster, and they exceed the scope of this article. This article exists to list the characters of the series, not each and every form of each character. If we want to do that, we may as well just merge it with the alt articles. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 16:59, 10 February 2019 (EST)
Already mentioned above the list. Redundant as trivia.
:Many other fighting games feature alternate costume characters (for example, Kuma/Panda and Eddie/Christie from Tekken). Alternate genders and alternate characters are the same as those essentially. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:01, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::With all due respect, we are not a wiki dedicated to other fighting games. We are Smash and Smash only. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:05, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::I...don't see what your point is. Yeah, other fighting games do it as well. What of it? [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 17:10, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::Responding to both pokepub and serpent king, the reason why i brought it up is that alternate costume characters are acknowledged as characters. Super Smash Bros. Is no exception to this. Misclenaia almost always use both versions. So I don’t see any reason not to do it. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:26, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::::In what context is Iggy Koopa regarded as a Smash Bros. character and not an alternate costume for Bowser Jr.? <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::::No one says "I main Iggy" or "Male Wii Fit Trainer is X tier" <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:30, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::::Notice how I said almost. Female Corrin, Alph, male inkling, female Robin, male WFT, and female Pokémon Trainer are often treated as equal to their counterparts. Corrin in particular is used in the classic mode mural instead of male corrin. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:32, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::::Also, you probably ahouldn’t make assumptions about “who mains iggy?”, because I see a ton of people saying “I main Wendy” or “I main female Corrin”. Again, regarding Corrin, I often see most gameplay with corrin using the female counterpart. It really doesn’t hurt to acknowledge them. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:34, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::::::It doesn't matter, this still doesn't change the fact that listing out all of this is not the point of the article. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:36, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::::::Understand that every article on this wiki has a scope. The scope of this article is "Base fighters in Smash", alternate costumes is covered on the 5 (one for each game) alt articles, as that is their scope. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:38, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::I understand that most alternate costumes are simply palletw swaps or wardrobe changes, and that’s why I’m not doing it for every single one. The ones I listed down there are the ones who are not simply pallete swaps or wardrobe changes. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:48, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::Okay, I've been trying to phrase my opinions on this correctly for a while now, but I've been having trouble because I don't agree with either of you. First of all, I want to point out: this article's scope is either wider than you seem to believe or has been completely ruptured for a while, because the "non-playable characters" section certainly doesn't qualify under "base fighters in Smash". (It's probably prudent to mention that I don't even want that section in the article myself, so using it as an example is a little weird for me.) I've already outlined why I don't agree with including different-gendered versions in the above section, but full-on alternate costume characters like the Koopalings and Alph are actually meaningfully distinguished by the game from their originals by using different names and announcer clips. At the very least, the idea I really take umbrage with is that the Koopalings are "outside the scope of the article", but the gigantic potpourri table of Multi-Man teams, stage bosses, Classic Mode bosses, and Sandbag for some reason is perfectly fine and within reason. I can take or leave both or neither or just the Koopalings and Alph, but if we're cutting things off "scope" that monstrosity better be the first to go. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:02, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::::::::To be honest Ahemtoday, I have always found the nonplayable table a bit odd for this article as well, but decided it was a different discussion for a different time. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 18:05, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::::I knew I felt like something was off about this article. I remember thinking the same way a while ago, but forgot about it and started no discussion. I'd definitely like to see that section axed or split into it's own page, but of course, that's a topic for another section, not this one. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 18:07, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::::::::::Considering how the page is called “list of super smash bros. Series characters”, and not specifically regarding defaults only or playable only, I think it’s safe to keep them. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 11:19, 11 February 2019 (EST)


''*When including DLC, every new ''Smash'' game has increased the number of newcomers per game.''
I could see ''some'' justification for a list of the alternate costumes that are literally different characters (e.g. Alph), but even that I think isn't necessary and brings too much attention to a minor detail. Alternate genders are the same character and so shouldn't be spelled out. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Different 17:41, 10 February 2019 (EST)
Most fighting games don't do this, but this isn't really notable because Smash 4 and Ultimate required DLC to make it at that point. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]]|
:I’m pretty sure that aside from Robin and Corrin, all of the alternate genders are entirely different individuals. Even in the cases of Robin and Corrin, a few dialoge lines change them up a bit. I really don’t see the harm in having them there. I’m sorry if I sound too condescending about this. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 17:48, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:Took out the ones that aren't notable or are better left/already on another page. However I personally find the Hero/Koopaling one interesting, so I seperated them to make more sense. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>''']] 17:46, March 2, 2020 (EST)
::Well, now we run into the problem of where the cutoff is for an "entirely different individual". Are every single one of the Inklings different individuals? Should we count Pikachu Libré as a different Pikachu because it's a different gender as seen by the markings on its tail? Are the Pokémon used by the female Pokémon Trainer distinct individuals from the ones used by the male Pokémon Trainer, or do they share Pokémon for some reason? Can we consider Bayonetta 1 Bayo and Bayonetta 2 Bayo distinct individuals in the same way Link and Young Link were back in Melee? If we don't have a hardline distinction, things get messy quick. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 18:09, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:::There’s a pretty simple system actually: it depends on how many cosume spaces they take up. For example, half of corrin’s alts are female, and half are male. Half of Inklings are male, and half are female. However, only two pikachu alts are female, therefore they’re not major enough. Different outfits and different time periods do not neccesarily count as different individuals. Young Link was the exception because he had his own slot. He Koopalings are also another peculiar case. However, wince Bowser Jr. is only one costume and the others are all different characters, I’d say they possibly fall under this scope[[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:15, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::::That's... ''pretty'' comprehensive, but we run into a problem with Inklings. See, there it's not just a change of ''outfit'': it's a change of outfit (frequently with new clothing items like headphones and bandannas), ink color, skin color, ''and'' eye color. I'm not sure how else you interpret that other than as eight entirely seperate Inklings. There's also the strange case of Little Mac: half of his costumes in Smash 4 are wireframe, and that may or may not ''actually'' be a seperate individual - it's a little complicated, but the guy in the arcade Punch-Out!! neither resembles Little Mac or is called Little Mac, so he's at least as different as Robin or Corrin. But in ''Ultimate'', only two of Little Mac's costumes are wireframe. Is he notable in one and then not notable in the other?
:::::I understand both of your points. With Little Mac, the only way this works is by considering him notable in smash 4 and not notable in ultimate. But that’s pretty clearly the same Little Mac. Changing your chromosomes is significant enough to count when a wireframe version doesn’t count. If you want to argue about wireframe mac, I currently have a proposal on if major alternate costumes should be in the main infobox as long as the images are placed into tabs instead of on top of each other. And about the inklings, while they are thecnialy different individuals, they don’t have different names like the koopalings. Thus, only the default male inkling is considered major enough to be listed here. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:50, 10 February 2019 (EST)


== Adding Totals to the tables. ==
I’d like to make another point in support of having the alternate genders/characters: It wouldn’t be confusing at all, considering the word “alternate”. Also, in some cases (Corrin and Inkling are the prime examples here), the two genders are treated nearly as equals. The people against having them here may think it’s uneccesary, but there is absolutely nothing wrong that can come out of having them. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:32, 10 February 2019 (EST)
:You can repeat yourself all you want, there's no reason to have those tables on this article. The information is elsewhere as it should be. Please just drop this. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:05, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::I’ll drop it when you give me a reason why having them would be objectively wrong. Right now all you’re giving me is that it isn’t neccesary, but nothing about what harm it could cause. It won’t be confusing if they’re listed as alternate characters. You also mentioned that nobody says they main alternate costumes, but that’s an objectively false assumption. Therr is zero harm that ccan come out of having them here. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:37, 11 February 2019 (EST)
:::You clearly aren't listening. It isn't necessary because **it's not the point of the article**. That in itself is the harm, to include them takes focus from what the article is trying to accomplish: being a comprehensive list of playable characters. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:45, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::::I actually talked about how it doesn’t take focus from the list of playable characters. They’re called “alternate” for a reason. It doesn’t take focus away when they have a name that ''clearly'' paints them as secondary. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:48, 11 February 2019 (EST)
:::::Then you admit that they are secondary and therefore shouldn't be treated as base characters. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:50, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::::::Yes and no. They are undeniably secondary (I never even denied it in be first place), but they are still fully playable, and thus shouldn’t be ignored. You said the info was elsewhere, but said information is on multiple pages. Putting thtem here puts them all on one page in one section. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:53, 11 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::[[Alternate costume (SSBU)]] <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::::::::I appreciate you giving me a link, but like I said, one section. Having alternate costumes mixed in like that is incredibly long to navigate. Wii Fit Trainer is near the bottom because W is near je end of the alphabet, while Corrin is all the way up top. It makes sense, but it’s a lot simpler having them in one section. This also doesn’t account for Alph not being in Brawl. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:59, 11 February 2019 (EST)


So I noticed the [[Stages]], [[Boss]], and [[Assist Trophy]] pages each list the total number of each on their tables. Should something like that be added to the table on this page? Maybe like what the Stages table does, and list returning and new fighters separate? [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 19:08, March 11, 2020 (EDT)
For Brawl's you just go to the [[Alternate costume (SSBB)|respective article]]. I am confused also what need is there to have a list like that, at what point would one need to know each character who has an alt? We could make an article just for that I suppose, but it simply wouldn't have enough content to justify its own existence. If smash ever comes to the point where literally every character is like this, then I think having such a list would be valid but until then, it's just not. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:07, 11 February 2019 (EST)
:8 characters have alternate costumes that turn them into different individuals. That’s enough content, especially considering how (and forgive me for bringing up Tekken again) Panda and Eddie are treated in Tekken 5 pretty much the exact same way as the 8 characters I’ve been bringing up all the time in-game. Yet, Tekken’s fans acknowledge those characters as fully playable, despite not having their own spot on the selection screen. Why would smash be any exception aside from the fact that the concept was introduced recently. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 14:14, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::They're not really different individuals at all, and changing your definition to fit whatever criticism others levy doesn't really help the argument at all. Within the context of Fire Emblem, male and female Corrin are literally the same person and their gender has zero impact on the game; they're extensions of the player and aren't "separate characters" at all. Peach's colour change to "Daisy" in Melee didn't merit its own table, and neither does this. All of the content contained in such a table is redundant, as the character pages themselves and [[Alternate costume (SSBU)]] already contain the same and more information. Your point about chromosomes is particularly absurd because these are fictional characters that don't have chromosomes and you'd have no way to measure them even if they are. You continue to say "what's the harm?", to which I would respond it has next to no value to start with, further clutters this page, and is redundant by virtue of other pages. &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 14:37, 11 February 2019 (EST)
:::The reason why we didn’t count Daisy in Melee was because she was still called Peach, and that’s because Daisy’s face is much different than Peach’s. With the exception of Robin and Corrin, all of the genderswaps are different individuals, and don’t change their name because it refers to them as a species/occupation. Secondly, changing Corrin or Robin’s gender does in fact have an impact on the game, as they have different support lines depending on the gender. The chromosomes thing was just a fancy way of comparing alternate genders to characters like Ike or Cloud who change outfits or time periods instead of gender. Thirdly, you say that they have next to no value, but as I said before, neither to Panda and Eddie from Tekken. In the cases of both tekken and Smash, they’re both considered playable characters. However, Tekken’s fans also consider them characters, so why would smash be any different. Also, as I mentioned before, while I’m aware that the info was on other pages, it would be less scrolling to find them. Putting them here puts them in one section and in one page, so I wouldn’t say it’s redundant. And while there are enough costume characters that I believe it’s significant enough, it’s not enough to clutter the page. Alph and the Koopalings were on the page for months, and the page looked completely fine. I’m sorry if I sound rude, but I really do think that they should be on there. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:07, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::::You've just undermined your entire argument. "The reason why we didn’t count Daisy in Melee was because she was still called Peach, and that’s because Daisy’s face is much different than Peach’s." Villager's appearances are barely demonstrably gendered in the first place, much less different enough that you can argue that they're patently different characters. Even if they were, the alternate costumes page documents all of this info and more in a better location, and I reject that this information is so highly sought out that it merits a section on this page to "minimise scrolling"; indeed, if minimising scrolling is of concern, the actually materially relevant content on the page, i.e. [[List_of_Super_Smash_Bros._series_characters#Playable_characters|the PC table]], is the only mandatory information. Every single character you listed in the gender table does not get a new name-- probably because they're the same character-- and their apperances are honestly irrelevant. Different support lines in FE do not change that the canon plot does not deviate based on Corrin and Robin's gender and is further not evidence that they are materially different characters in any way. I'd be more in favour of removing the Alph/Koopalings table than I would be keeping the gender table. As SK already noted, what occurs in Tekken and other wikis is irrelevant; multiple users here have argued that it is unnecessary and adds nothing to the page. &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 15:20, 11 February 2019 (EST)


I know it has been months since you discussed this, but we have added the Fighter totals to the page. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 20:09, September 1, 2020 (EDT)
== Kill the "non-playable characters" section and rename this to List of playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters ==


== Add other considered or intended fighters in a separate category? ==
It's time we define this articles scope so we can quit having these long drawn out articles. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:49, 11 February 2019 (EST)


As there have been several characters who were considered or intended to become fighters, should we make another table for those would didn’t get in? [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 23:19, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
===Support===
:This one's not really needed. All it would really do is make the page longer than it actually needs to be. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 23:28, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
===Oppose===
 
===Neutral===
== Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Roy considered for Brawl? ==
*'''Depends''': I support this on the basis of two circumstances: that the non-playable characters get their own page, and that major alternate characters are listed under the main ones. Alternate characters are ''still'' playable, therefore deserve having a section here. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)
 
::Would not be against having a nonplayable article. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
As they have fighter data in Brawl, shouldn’t they be intended as there was work put into them? While Sakurai has never said they were planned, the fighter data suggests it. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 23:22, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
::We could also have a small section for background characters, and links to the Pokemon and AT list articles<span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:11, 11 February 2019 (EST)
:I'm going to have to agree on this one. I'm guessing it's because they were not officially confirmed, but because they have unused fighter data it's clear they were intended. According to the {{SSBB|unused content}} page this is epecially the case for Roy and Mewtwo, as they have actual fighter data such as a fanfare. Plus Mewtwo has an unused Wiimote sound file for being selected, so for him it clearly implies that he was intended to be playable, but yet again cut for whatever reason, I'm still confused as to why they chose Jigglypuff over Mewtwo ''twice''. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 23:59, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
 
== Quotation pages? ==
 
Hello, I was wondering if we could have separate quotation pages for fighters that are playable? There have been sounds and voice clips of every fighter as well as the announcer via https://www.sounds-resource.com/nintendo_switch/supersmashbrosultimate/ so we could also upload the sound clips that correspond towards their quotations. What do you think, should we add pages that show every one of their voice clips? [[User:GameBoy2936|GameBoy2936]] ([[User talk:GameBoy2936|talk]]) 01:27, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
 
:What quotations are you talking about? [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Son Daniel|talk page]]) 02:13, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
 
::This includes what fighters say when using taunts, abilities, attacks and victory poses, basically wherever they use any of their voice clips. [[User:GameBoy2936|GameBoy2936]] ([[User talk:GameBoy2936|talk]]) 02:42, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
:::I would lean towards no, mostly because the Sound Test does that in-game. [[SmashWiki:What SmashWiki is not#SmashWiki is not a resource repository|We're not a resource repository]], so uploading that many sound clips that really aren't necessary for encyclopedic reporting is a bit over the top. But even if we don't upload the sound clips, we already transcribe important quotes (such as taunts and victory poses) in their relevant sections, and anything else would just be variations of grunts. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 02:57, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
 
== Do we really need all the (intended)s and (considered)s and (boss)es clogging up the table? ==
 
I'm not going to say it's ''useless'' information. It definitely should be somewhere on the wiki. But does it ''really'' need to be right there on the table? This is the page about fighters, so I reckon the only information on the table should be "are they a fighter or not", and "are they unlockable or not", and things like that. Not whether they were intended to be a fighter or whether they were an assist trophy in that game. That goes on that character's trivia section, or on the beta content pages, or on the Assist Trophy page, or at ''least'' in the trivia section of this page or something. I just think it's clogging up the table as it is now, which makes the whole thing a little less cleaner to read. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:15, August 15, 2020 (EDT)
 
== Regarding Transformations ==
 
Does there need to be a Transformation background for fighters? They already have references linking the fighters to being transformations and it doesn’t affect their availability. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them be denoted as starters (with the exceptions of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard in Ultimate as they’re unlockable with Pokémon Trainer)? [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 12:19, September 3, 2020 (EDT)
 
I think them being transformations (and therefore effectively being part of another fighter) is a pretty major thing that warrants something more attention-grabbing than a footnote. After all, all the characters with blue backgrounds don't have their own space on the CSS. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:33, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
 
The issue is that Zelda and Samus also have the blue background despite appearing on the CSS. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 10:50, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
 
Huh? ...You're right, they do. I could've sworn they didn't. In my opinion, they ''shouldn't'', and I think it was that way at some point, but maybe it was changed? Anyway, yeah, those two and Pokémon Trainer should have regular backgrounds. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:33, September 13, 2020 (EDT)
 
== Reused assets for playable characters. ==
 
This is a topic that i already discussed on my talkpage, but given the large amount of reused assets, i wondered if any of the playable characters also reuse things like animations, models and etc from their home games. Apperently, according to comments from users or admins on the Model Resource, Sonic uses his model from Sonic and the Secret Rings but with different textures and edited model data, while Snake's model is his Sneaking Suit model from Metal Gear Solid 2 with different textures and Big Boss' head model from Metal Gear Solid 3. In addtion, Kazuya reuses his
Tekken animations, some of which are almost 30 years old, while Ryu might reuse animations from Street Fighter IV and its updates. I don't have any model or animation viewing software or something like that, so can't verify if this is actually true. And for those wondering, im not counting reused from previous Smash games. So does anyone know any other potential asset reuses for playable characters?  [[User:GameDestroyer2008|GameDestroyer2008]] ([[User talk:GameDestroyer2008|talk]]) 16:43, November 14, 2022 (EST)
:You don't seem to be making a distinction between re-used assets and re-created assets. Barring rare exceptions, I think it's safe to assume that models and animations for fighters are made specifically for Smash and that similarities to existing assets are because Smash is trying to represent the source material faithfully. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:50, November 14, 2022 (EST)
:The only confirmed instance of a fighter reusing a model from somewhere else is with Ganondorf in Melee, where his model was taken from the Spaceworld 2000 GameCube Zelda Tech Demo due to his very late inclusion. Other similar models are purely speculation. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#28282B;border:solid FF0000 5px;border-radius: 4px;padding:1px 3px;color:#FF0000">Diddy Kongstar</span>]] 00:35, November 20, 2022 (EST)
Just from how many different games have the Smash Bros games reused assets in general? [[User:GameDestroyer2008|GameDestroyer2008]] ([[User talk:GameDestroyer2008|talk]]) 06:59, December 3, 2022 (EST)
 
== Page name ==
 
I'd label the page with a move tag, but it seems just from general discussion that people can't decide on a name, so we're gonna gain consensus on what name this page should be called.
 
This page was originally called '''character''', which wasn't terrible, but [[#Move|gathered enough outcry]] to warrant a move to the (at the time of this post) currently existing name of '''fighter'''. In attempting to figure out peoples' stances on this, the idea to move it to '''playable character''' was proposed, which I admit to not being opposed to myself. However, I think a single name decided under consensus should be utilized, so feel free to leave your thoughts here. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Gamer'''</span>]] 13:50, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
: '''Playable character''': "Character" in general seems to be a more common term than "Fighter"; however, I would much rather have "Playable character" since it is more specific and is also consistent with our [[Non-playable character]] page. And then "Character" can just be simply redirected there too. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 13:58, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
: '''Playable character''': as per Voqéo. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 14:00, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
: '''Playable character''': as per Voqeo and SenorMexicano [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color: Red; 0px">Seahawk</span>]] [[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color:Lime;">(talk)</span>'']][[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] 14:12, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
: '''Leaving it''' is preferred but '''Playable character''' would be fine. To quote a short essay I wrote a few years ago, ''"I would argue that, while SmashWiki may not be official, putting the use of official terminology first and foremost if possible is conducive to its agenda on the whole."'' The word "character" by itself has a specific singular definition in the dictionary, but "fighter" is the Smash term for, collectively, whoever or whatever you are playing as. Some fighters include multiple separate characters, and that's not to mention the fact that "character" by itself doesn't even tell you that it's someone you play as. The word could include NPCs, bosses, and spirits for all we know. '''A term commonly used in the community isn't necessary helpful for information purposes.''' So if you ask me, "Fighter" feels like a no-brainer page name, but if you insist on using more fan-agreeable terminology, "Playable character" does tick the right boxes since it's technically not unheard-of in the realm of official use, and establishes dichotomy from [[Non-playable character]]. Sincerely, '''[[User:Ender R. Musk|<span style="color:#cc00fa">Ender</span>]] [[User talk:Ender R. Musk|<span style="color:blue">Rhapsody</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ender R. Musk|<span style="color: #012061">Musk</span>]]'''. 14:14, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
: '''Playable character''' --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 18:16, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
: '''Playable character''': As far as I know, the term "Fighter" has only fully replaced "Character" in Ultimate, and in Smash 4 the two terms were used interchangeably. I support "Playable character" because it covers the most games and because "Character" is too vague. It's pretty rare for someone to call Melee characters "fighters", for example. [[User:Levii|Levii]] ([[User talk:Levii|talk]]) 18:29, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
: '''Fighter''' is concise, specific, and easily understood. And I think there's value in the fact that it's a Smash term: When you're talking about fighters, you know you're talking about the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. League has champions, Dota has heroes, Smash has fighters. And yes, the context of being on this wiki can clue you in that you're talking Smash, but using 'fighter' gives the discourse that distinctive Smash flavor, while 'playable character' is beige and bland. —[[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]] ([[User talk:Ardub23|talk]]) 22:17, November 1, 2023 (EDT)
:I say '''leaving it as-is''' would be preferable, but changing it to '''Playable character''' would be ok, as per [[User:Ender_R._Musk|Ender]] and [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]]. - [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 01:20, November 5, 2023 (EDT)
: I'd say '''Fighter''' for the similar reasons as [[User:Ender_R._Musk|Ender]] and [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]]. It's a concise way of labeling playable characters and I've recently been seeing more people use the word "fighter". [[User:Diddy Kongstar|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#28282B;border:solid FF0000 5px;border-radius: 4px;padding:1px 3px;color:#FF0000">Diddy Kongstar</span>]] 23:36, November 7, 2023 (EST)
::Maybe it's because I'm only really involved in the competitive side of the community, but I honestly don't really see "figher" used too commonly. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 16:46, November 9, 2023 (EST)
:'''Fighter'''. Although Smashwiki is not official, I think everyone can agree that the smash team themselves is pushing that name, [https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_z28RqWDU4 such as with the latest Sakurai video], or terms like "Fighters Pass" or "Echo Fighter". Even disregarding official-ness though, "playable character" is just way too generic, and, as Ardub said, using "fighter" gives the wiki its own "smash flavor". [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 12:37, November 10, 2023 (EST)

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