Editing Talk:Fighter

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== Fighter Numbers ==

So in both the reveal trailer and the website, each fighter was given a number according to the order they were introduced into the series. The question I want to ask is if we should consider this something that deserves to be listed, on this page and on character infoboxes.

If we ''do'' end up going for listing fighter numbers on this page, it would also give us an official way to order the characters, since no game's CSS (before Ultimate) has every Smash character ever on it. Note that the table can be sorted by any column, so viewers can still order characters alphabetically or however.

(I would have made this a proposal, but I made my account specifically to do that and I don't want to wait four days.)

'''Edit:''' Be sure to also check out [[Template talk:Infobox Character General#Fighter Numbers|my related discussion point on the character infobox talk page]]!

Vote below. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)

=== Yes, list the numbers of each character ===
# '''Support.''' I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. It's the most official order for every fighter currently in Smash, it can easily be extended, and it's not as though it would be a huge undertaking to put them there. As for character infoboxes, we already list character's species, gender, and place of origin; and I would argue that these numbers are more pertinent to Smash than all of those. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''List the numbers, but don't sort them by default in that order.''' I think it should be an option to list them by Ultimate's official order, but it's not an order that any other installment uses, so it might be overemphasizing Ultimate if we used that as the basis of the list. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 17:48, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''List the numbers.''' I agree! If we can make it official, then let's do it! [[User:Dragonfirebreath25|Dragonfirebreath25]] ([[User talk:Dragonfirebreath25|talk]]) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#I agree with Nyargleblargle. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 17:52, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Put the numbers in a column.''' That way, people can sort by them if they want to. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:56, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#Agreed. It is official after all. Definitely needs a column. [[User:Master Zach|Master Zach]] ([[User talk:Master Zach|talk]]) 17:58, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Ultimate Support'''. I did just do it after all. [[User: RobSir_zx|<span style="color:orange">Rob</span>]][[User talk:RobSir_zx|<span style="color:blue">'''Sir '''</span>]][[File:RobSir-sig.jpg|16px]] [[Special:Contributions/RobSir zx|<span style="color:red">zx</span>]] 19:32, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Support''' Fully agree with Nyargleblargle. <s>In addition, the characters are now sorted ingame by fighter number.</s> [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 02:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Even official media from Ultimate is using the numbers''' https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/fighter/index.html[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#*'''The order in Smash ultimate fighter selection sorting follow the official number order'''[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#*'''It is not arbitrary and uses a historical precedent in the order of fighters first seen by the public, as can be seen here:''' https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/14/what-do-smash-ultimates-character-numbers-mean/ [[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#*:The precedent itself is pretty arbitrary, and as I state in my argument below, doesn't appear to serve a useful purpose unless we later find it's something important in-game like the character unlock order (and even then, that means it's only important for the SSBU pages, not really this one). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''I agree with Shideraven'''. The only reason I do is because the official website numbers them. I think we should at least include the numbers in the character's info box. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 23:33, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#I '''support''' even if it's just putting the number in the Smash Ultimate infoboxes. There's not reason we should ignore the numbers entirely [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 06:29, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
#<s>(I am just an anonymous user, so my statement may not mean much.) '''I''' feel like we should put the characters in their numbered order. Yes, this is the first time we have an actual confirmed order. The last time this happened (in a sense) on the wiki was for ''Smash 64'', where the characters matched their select screen locations. None since have matched the order like that on the wiki, instead being ordered by the game series inclusion into ''Smash'' with a few exceptions. '''One''' of the concerns I saw in a counterargument was that it only applies to ''Ultimate''. Yes, it currently does only apply to ''Ultimate'', and should probably only be applied to the correlating ''Ultimate'' pages, including the main page. “But Echo Fighters will be out of place”, only Lucina and Dark Pit would be since we’d keep the newcomers page. If they were to keep the numbers and Daisy were to become her own fighter in a possible 6th installment, then that would only apply to the 6th installment and the correlating pages. '''Another''' concern I saw was “people can sort by them if they want to”: I cannot see that being possible with the current list. Unless it was for it to be alphabetical like Poké Ball Pokémon. '''On''' the character pages, we can do something like what we’re doing to the stages that were in ''Melee''. For example, Onett is “'''Eagleland: Onett'''”. The characters on their Ultimate page can be like “'''10: Ness'''”. '''I''' really like how it is currently done on the ''Mario Wiki'' for ''Ultimate'' https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate With the only surprising thing being that it’s on the ''Mario Wiki'' and not the ''Smash Bros. Wiki.'' They even included the character’s series’ logo, and if there’s additional info (Like with Pokémon Trainer and pallet swaps). All that said, I feel like we should at least sort them by their number/select-screen-location.</s> [[User:47.199.44.226|47.199.44.226]] ([[User talk:47.199.44.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.199.44.226|contribs]]) 12:34pm, 14 August 2018 (EDT) (<--I posted this here by Mistake)
#Just thought I'd bring up that the characters are sorted by their number in the actual game. During the Direct, Sakurai said, "Stages are now in chronological order, just like the fighters," or something along those lines. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 21:27, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

=== No, the numbers aren't notable enough ===
#'''No.''' I don't see any ''actual'' supporting arguments here.
#*"It could be official." Even ignoring the "could", [[SW:OFFICIAL]] says "so what?". I'd also like to note that the numbers are extremely arbitrary in the sense that they depend on the order Sakurai chose to reveal characters in the past, so they're not particularly ''useful'' unless we determine they have an in-game purpose.
#*"It can easily be extended." Yes but ''will'' it be? If the next game ignores the numbers, we're left with an incomplete set and might have to remove them. And what happens if someone gets decloned? Melee's clones were absolutely clones at the time; would Sakurai have assigned them "echo" status if he'd considered the idea? We might end up with a per-game list of numbers and that kind of defeats the purpose.
#*"It's not hard to add them." ...so what? A lot of stuff is "easy", that doesn't mean it's correct.
#:Now, here's my main argument for leaving the numbers out: There's currently no evidence that the numbers are actually ''important''. I happen to think they're just marketing hype for the "all veterans are returning" shtick. If it turns out that they designate the unlock order or something else in-game, then sure add them to the relevant SSBU pages. (After all, "it's easy", so there's no need to scramble to do it now, right?) But for now? No thanks. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 10:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#::Your second point is honestly a pretty big concern. Maybe we could integrate the numbers into the Ultimate column somehow as a solution for the incomplete set thing?
#::However, I don't think [[SW:OFFICIAL]] means that we shouldn't offer the numbering as an option to sort through the list ''at all''; there's not really any precedent for ignoring official info entirely as far as I can recall. We cover unofficial terms and subjects because that makes it easier to view comprehensive information about the series, so I don't see why that shouldn't be the case for official material as well. I could see plenty of people choosing to sort this list based on Ultimate's order because of how it kind of encapsulates the evolution of the roster. Also, as for the marketing hype point you made, we discuss the Dojo and Pics of the Day pretty often and reference them in articles, so why not do the same for this game's marketing materials? [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 19:29, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#:::Yes the officialness point is a weak one, I'm not going to try to debate it. More important are the "what about the future" and "it's not particularly useful" ones. In fact, I thought of something to add to the "not useful" point: even though Sonic was practically added to Brawl after everyone else, late enough to cause a delay, he's not the last Brawl newcomer in the Sakurai Numbers because he was revealed on the website before Dedede and a bunch of others. It's almost anti-useful in that sense.
#:::The pic-of-the-day stuff is different because it generally always contained in-game content. As far as we know, the numbers do not exist in-game. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 22:48, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Nah''' The numbering order is confusing, and overall, it's just not important enough to have it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:32, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#:What I mean by confusing by the way is that it makes no sense to have "echo" characters listed as the same character, plus it could easily get confused that these numbers are actually character IDs, which they aren't. Also, there's the fact that this order only applies to one game of 5. As far as I know, none of the other games number their characters this way. 
#:Also sorry for the revert, I didn't know this conversation existed., but either way, a consensus should be reached before the change is implemented <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:38, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
#::This is indeed an additional good point. The fact that clones are marked as a non-number (i.e. a number plus an additional marking) means the entire list cannot be treated as a bunch of numbers. This also aligns with my earlier point about the future - say Daisy gets decloned in SSB6, she goes from 13e to 65 and pushes down everyone after that. Then the whole thing's permanently out of whack until we scale back down to only caring about it on a per-game basis (which isn't relevant to this page specifically). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)
#'''Omit them.''' Toom and SK have hit the main points for me. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:13, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
#Whoops! I feel that I posted on the wrong discussion page. I was asking about the characters' numbers on ''Ultimate's'' talk page (https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate) when "[[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]]" told me it was being discussed here. I was under the impression that "Awesomelink234" meant that the discussion for Ultimate's page (and corresponding character pages) was here. If this discussion is for the general list of playable character in ''Smash'', then '''I do not see it working for the previously stated''', as it is just a general list for the series as a whole and is subject to change in the future. Number currently only apply to ''Ultimate''. [[User:47.199.44.226|47.199.44.226]] ([[User talk:47.199.44.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.199.44.226|contribs]]) 12:34am, 16 August 2018 (EDT)
:Well then if it only applies to ''Ultimate'', just put the fighter numbers on its character template and leave the rest of them alone. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 21:25, 17 August 2018 (EDT)

===Neutral===
#I think that at this stage it might be best to wait for the game's release and see if these numbers are used anywhere in the game. If they turn out to just be a trailer thing then no, but if they are actually used in the game somewhere then yes. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 07:09, 25 June 2018 (EDT)

---

Alright, looking back on this: it is 10-2 in favor of adding the numbers. If that's not consensus, at least votecount-wise, I'm not sure what is. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ahemtoday|contribs]]) 04:40, 14 August 2018 (EDT)</small>
:Just because a lot of people want something done doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing. I look over the support votes and I don't see a whole lot of ''reasons'' aside from "we should do it because it's official". On the other hand, the oppose section has several reasons that votes in the support section have yet to counter. In any case, I think we should wait for the game to be out before we make a decision, because the most important thing is if the numbers are in-game as opposed to simply in promotional content. (It won't really help their case on ''this'' page, but in SSBU infoboxes and such.) [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 21:34, 14 August 2018 (EDT)

== NPC Specification ==

If we're putting notes about Ridley's Boss/Hazard appearances in the Playable Characters chart, shouldn't we also have ones for Charizard and Little Mac's Pokeball/Assist Trophy appearances? It feels a bit inconsistent not to. --[[User:Burb|Burb]] ([[User talk:Burb|talk]]) 08:12, 15 June 2018 (EDT)

== Smash Bros. Universe unlockable characters ==

It has been confirmed in the [https://youtu.be/akohTFyGu88?t=22m32s Nintendo Direct: E3 2018] that your starting roster is the original N64 roster, and everyone else will be unlockable. It is discussable if the 4 unlockable N64 characters will be unlockabe too or not, but looking at how it was presented: all 12 characters faded in as he said which were available from the start, and all other characters slided in as he talked about unlocking characters, making it look like all 12 original will be available from the start. [[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 08:17, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
:The direct didn't use definitive wording. Your roster ''may'' be as small as the original fighters. I don't think that's confirmation. It's more like when Sakurai said there might be one or two more third-party characters in Brawl. He didn't mean it literally; he was introducing it as a concept. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 20:56, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
::According to [https://youtu.be/Cb3gWV-3_nE?t=3m26s GameXplain's video coverage] of the Famitsu interview of Sakurai and the Ultimate's development; it sounds like it's definitely decided that the starting roster is the Smash 64 roster. At least the non-Smash 64 characters can be marked as unlockable.
::On the topic of if the unlockable Smash 64 characters will be starters or unlockable; as the statement was that the Smash 64 characters were starters, and not the starter Smash 64 characters were the starters, all 12 should be expected to be unlocked. Looking back at the E3 2018 video, all 12 character faded in (the unlockable a moment after) as he talked about the starters, and everyone else slided in whilst he talked about unlockables.
::Either way, I think it's starting to be pretty clear that all the non-core 12 characters will be unlockables.
::[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2018 (EDT)

==Wario Was INTENDED for Melee==

If someone can put intended there he was intended. Source Gaming Sourced many interviews with Sakarai stating had there been more time, Wario wouldve been the first to get in: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/
[[User:WARIOLOAFER|WarioLoafer]]

== About the perfect attendance crew section ==

It says that the original 12 will be starters in Ultimate, but on those four fighter pages and the Ultimate page itself it is said that is unknown. If those pages say that then why do we have that information in that section? [[File:George Jones.jpg|25px]] [[User:George Jones|George Jones]] [[File:Walls Can Fall.jpg|25px]] 21:45, 27 July 2018 (EDT)
:By leaving them blank since we don't know, that happens to also be the definition of "starter character" for the table. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:08, 27 July 2018 (EDT)

== I don't really think the "non-playable characters" section should be on this page. ==

I just got done editing its "Notes" subsection, and working on it made me think about whether it really should be there. Honestly, I don't think it should, and here's a numbered list of reasons as to why:

# '''The entire rest of the page is about playable characters.''' Including stage bosses on a page that is mainly about ''playable'' fighters just seems strange to me. I could forgive it if this was a Mortal Kombat situation where the bosses are basically just overpowered regular characters you can't select, but the problem is:
# '''Most characters on that list behave nothing like playable fighters.''' Tabuu and Metal Face are in no way beholden to the same rules as regular fighters, which makes it weird that they're on this page. The notes on Sandbag literally admit it's not treated as a fighter anymore.
# '''The list is a mishmash of characters with completely different roles, with barely any common thread between them.''' Multi-Man Smash teams, Sandbag, stage bosses, Subspace bosses, regular stage hazards, old bosses that are just variations of fighters - the list is ''all'' over the place. And, yes, there's a distinct definition on the page of what the list includes, but the problem is:
# '''The definition of the list - "can fully interact with playable characters in-game, but are normally non-playable" - could also extend to every defeatable Assist Trophy and every single Subspace and Smash Run enemy.''' Of course I'm not suggesting we actually add all of these in, but the point is: if we actually were comprehensive about this list, it would be ludicrously massive.

So, in short, the list is so broad that it's a jumble of miscellaneous information shoved into an article that it's not really under the purview of. What do we do about it?

Well, my suggestion is as follows:

# '''Remove the current form of the list from this page entirely.''' As I said above, the page is about playable characters aside from that one segment, and many characters in that segment don't resemble fighters at all.
# '''Add a cross-game table to the [[Boss]] page.''' This table can include the Hands, Subspace bosses, and stage bosses - but not Sandbag or the Flying Man or whatever.
# '''The rest of the information is already elsewhere on the site.''' The Flying Man and Nabbit don't fill up a table on their own, so they don't really need one. Same with Sandbag. There's already the [[enemy team]]] page to get the Fighting Team information.

It's voting time! [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)

=== Remove the NPC Table ===

# '''Remove it.''' I mean, I brought it up in the first place. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
# '''Remove.''' Change the name of the article to "List of Super Smash Bros. series fighters". An article including all characters in Smash could be made with this article's current title as a compromise. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 00:16, 19 August 2018 (EDT)

=== Keep the NPC Table ===
# The page is not strictly about playable characters. The name even says "List of Super Smash Bros. series characters"; nowhere does that imply exclusively covering playable ones. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:11, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#:(Am I allowed to reply in indents like this?) Indeed it doesn't, but by that logic, this page should technically include every character that's ever been in Smash Bros.: Assist Trophies, Subspace enemies, and non-fighting stage hazards like Kraid included. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:19, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#::(You are, but use #s and colons instead of spaces; the latter messes with how it looks on the page.) Perhaps I wasn't clear: I'm not necessarily supporting keeping it as I am pointing out a flaw in your argument; this page isn't exclusively "playable characters" as you have made it out to be, and instead is generally about characters. Though, if you want a counter to your claim that we should include everything, pages shouldn't be so large that they cannot load; the one we are discussing is already 37KB in size, and including all references to every character would make it even bigger. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:35, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#:::I'll concede the page isn't currently exclusively about playable characters, and that we shouldn't include literally every character ever mentioned in Smash Brothers. However, if we ''aren't'' going to mention literally everyone, we need to draw a distinct line between what's included and what isn't - and the current line is fuzzy at best, wherein every Smash Run enemy and every damageable Assist Trophy "should" be included in the NPC table according to the definition of what goes there (but ''not'' according to common sense). With this in mind, I'd say that ''making'' the page about playable characters would draw a completely unambiguous line, fix all the issues I mentioned previously, and trim down the page. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 11:57, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
#::::Maybe we define it as characters that are mandatory to fight in a single player mode but cannot be selected in multiplayer? This would include Subspace enemies and bosses but exclude Assist Trophies, stage bosses, and Smash Run enemies. I’m sure it could be optimized further to be more sensible. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 21:43, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
#:::::That definition leaves us with 58 characters on that list, most of which are stuff like Primids and Floows. Not really a fan of having such a bloated list. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:05, 12 August 2018 (EDT)

== Unused Brawl Characters ==

According to Sakurai, Villager, Pac-Man and the Miis were all supposed to end up in Brawl but they didn't for varying reason. Should they be mentioned on the table since other cut characters are mentioned? (Dr Mario, Roy, Ice Climbers etc.). Thanks [[User:Ice Cream Melee|Ice Cream Melee]] ([[User talk:Ice Cream Melee|talk]]) 10:15, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
:The same is also true for Chrom in Smash 4 [[User:Ice Cream Melee|Ice Cream Melee]] ([[User talk:Ice Cream Melee|talk]]) 10:18, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
::The difference there is that they're not necessarily unused, but rather "considered but never implemented". [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:04, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
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@@ Line 1: / Line 1: @@
-{{archive box|3}}
+{{archive box|2}}
+== Fighter Numbers ==
-== Kill the "non-playable characters" section and rename this to List of playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters ==
+So in both the reveal trailer and the website, each fighter was given a number according to the order they were introduced into the series. The question I want to ask is if we should consider this something that deserves to be listed, on this page and on character infoboxes.
-It's time we define this articles scope so we can quit having these long drawn out articles. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:49, 11 February 2019 (EST)
+If we ''do'' end up going for listing fighter numbers on this page, it would also give us an official way to order the characters, since no game's CSS (before Ultimate) has every Smash character ever on it. Note that the table can be sorted by any column, so viewers can still order characters alphabetically or however.
-:Slight change to this proposal (if anyone who has already voted has a problem with it leave a comment below), This article is to be split into '''List of playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters''' and '''List of non-playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters.''' <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 18:58, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-::If this page is going to be a list of '''all''' playable characters (as opposed to just the playable fighters on the character select screen), there should probably be an addendum about [[Master Hand (SSBU)]]. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 19:22, 27 February 2019 (EST)
-===Support===
+(I would have made this a proposal, but I made my account specifically to do that and I don't want to wait four days.)
-# '''Remove.''' According to the official Smash website, the playable characters are known as "fighters". I propose changing the name of the article to "List of Super Smash Bros. fighters". An article including all (or just the non-playable) characters in Smash could be made with this article's current title as a compromise. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 17:34, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-#'''Support if and only if''' the non-playable characters receive their own article. If this is decided against, then I oppose. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-#'''Support, as long as we define character'''. Are Smash Run enemies considered characters? Subspace? WoL? If not, then why not? Why are boss characters counted then? If we were to list all the characters in the ''Smash'' series, this page'll be incredibly long. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 17:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-#:This article would become only playable characters, another one created for nonplayables...this is more of a split than a move now that I think on it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-#Definitely '''lop that section off into its own article.''' I made a section about this earlier (though without a vote), so of course I'm on board. We can hash out stuff like alternate characters and genders and what an NPC should be later, but if one thing gets done I'd want it to be that article getting sliced. (Also, I second Smore's idea of making this page into "Fighters" or "List of SSB fighters" or something of that nature.) [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:26, 12 February 2019 (EST)
-#'''Immence support''' The chart in this page has been moved to the page [[non-playable characters]] and it fits more on that page anyway. it just makes sense to have this page be exclusivly playable charecters.[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra3678]] ([[User talk:Xtra3678|talk]]) 08:04, 25 February 2019 (EST)
-#'''Support.''' A page for List of Super Smash Bros. fighters and a separate on with NPCs sounds good. The Character page could be left as a redirect. --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 18:39, 4 March 2019 (EST)
-===Oppose===
+'''Edit:''' Be sure to also check out [[Template talk:Infobox Character General#Fighter Numbers|my related discussion point on the character infobox talk page]]!
-===Neutral===
-*'''Depends''': I support this on the basis of two circumstances: that the non-playable characters get their own page, and that major alternate characters are listed under the main ones. Alternate characters are ''still'' playable, therefore deserve having a section here. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-::Would not be against having a nonplayable article. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-::We could also have a small section for background characters, and links to the Pokemon and AT list articles<span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:11, 11 February 2019 (EST)
-==Don't understand==
+Vote below. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
-What does he mean by "Killing the non-playable character section and renaming it"? [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] [[User talk:Son Daniel|(talk page)]] 23:53, April 8, 2020 (EDT)
-:That was from a year ago. I remember there was a table for several boss characters on this page, and it was instead named list of characters in the series or something along those lines. I think that’s the proposal that got this page renamed and made a new page for nonplayable characters. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 00:01, April 9, 2020 (EDT)
-== Customizable and Transformation ==
+=== Yes, list the numbers of each character ===
+# '''Support.''' I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. It's the most official order for every fighter currently in Smash, it can easily be extended, and it's not as though it would be a huge undertaking to put them there. As for character infoboxes, we already list character's species, gender, and place of origin; and I would argue that these numbers are more pertinent to Smash than all of those. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''List the numbers, but don't sort them by default in that order.''' I think it should be an option to list them by Ultimate's official order, but it's not an order that any other installment uses, so it might be overemphasizing Ultimate if we used that as the basis of the list. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 17:48, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''List the numbers.''' I agree! If we can make it official, then let's do it! [[User:Dragonfirebreath25|Dragonfirebreath25]] ([[User talk:Dragonfirebreath25|talk]]) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
+#I agree with Nyargleblargle. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 17:52, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''Put the numbers in a column.''' That way, people can sort by them if they want to. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:56, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
+#Agreed. It is official after all. Definitely needs a column. [[User:Master Zach|Master Zach]] ([[User talk:Master Zach|talk]]) 17:58, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''Ultimate Support'''. I did just do it after all. [[User: RobSir_zx|<span style="color:orange">Rob</span>]][[User talk:RobSir_zx|<span style="color:blue">'''Sir '''</span>]][[File:RobSir-sig.jpg|16px]] [[Special:Contributions/RobSir zx|<span style="color:red">zx</span>]] 19:32, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''Support''' Fully agree with Nyargleblargle. <s>In addition, the characters are now sorted ingame by fighter number.</s> [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 02:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''Even official media from Ultimate is using the numbers''' https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/fighter/index.html[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
+#*'''The order in Smash ultimate fighter selection sorting follow the official number order'''[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
+#*'''It is not arbitrary and uses a historical precedent in the order of fighters first seen by the public, as can be seen here:''' https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/14/what-do-smash-ultimates-character-numbers-mean/ [[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
+#*:The precedent itself is pretty arbitrary, and as I state in my argument below, doesn't appear to serve a useful purpose unless we later find it's something important in-game like the character unlock order (and even then, that means it's only important for the SSBU pages, not really this one). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''I agree with Shideraven'''. The only reason I do is because the official website numbers them. I think we should at least include the numbers in the character's info box. [[User:Unowninator|Unowninator]] ([[User talk:Unowninator|talk]]) 23:33, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
+#I '''support''' even if it's just putting the number in the Smash Ultimate infoboxes. There's not reason we should ignore the numbers entirely [[User:Guybrush20X6|Guybrush20X6]] ([[User talk:Guybrush20X6|talk]]) 06:29, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
+#<s>(I am just an anonymous user, so my statement may not mean much.) '''I''' feel like we should put the characters in their numbered order. Yes, this is the first time we have an actual confirmed order. The last time this happened (in a sense) on the wiki was for ''Smash 64'', where the characters matched their select screen locations. None since have matched the order like that on the wiki, instead being ordered by the game series inclusion into ''Smash'' with a few exceptions. '''One''' of the concerns I saw in a counterargument was that it only applies to ''Ultimate''. Yes, it currently does only apply to ''Ultimate'', and should probably only be applied to the correlating ''Ultimate'' pages, including the main page. “But Echo Fighters will be out of place”, only Lucina and Dark Pit would be since we’d keep the newcomers page. If they were to keep the numbers and Daisy were to become her own fighter in a possible 6th installment, then that would only apply to the 6th installment and the correlating pages. '''Another''' concern I saw was “people can sort by them if they want to”: I cannot see that being possible with the current list. Unless it was for it to be alphabetical like Poké Ball Pokémon. '''On''' the character pages, we can do something like what we’re doing to the stages that were in ''Melee''. For example, Onett is “'''Eagleland: Onett'''”. The characters on their Ultimate page can be like “'''10: Ness'''”. '''I''' really like how it is currently done on the ''Mario Wiki'' for ''Ultimate'' https://www.mariowiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate With the only surprising thing being that it’s on the ''Mario Wiki'' and not the ''Smash Bros. Wiki.'' They even included the character’s series’ logo, and if there’s additional info (Like with Pokémon Trainer and pallet swaps). All that said, I feel like we should at least sort them by their number/select-screen-location.</s> [[User:47.199.44.226|47.199.44.226]] ([[User talk:47.199.44.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.199.44.226|contribs]]) 12:34pm, 14 August 2018 (EDT) (<--I posted this here by Mistake)
+#Just thought I'd bring up that the characters are sorted by their number in the actual game. During the Direct, Sakurai said, "Stages are now in chronological order, just like the fighters," or something along those lines. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 21:27, 17 August 2018 (EDT)
-Use background color to represent "Customizable" and "Transformation" conflict with "Unlockable", and these have notes. so should delete.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 23:05, 14 February 2019 (EST)
+=== No, the numbers aren't notable enough ===
+#'''No.''' I don't see any ''actual'' supporting arguments here.
+#*"It could be official." Even ignoring the "could", [[SW:OFFICIAL]] says "so what?". I'd also like to note that the numbers are extremely arbitrary in the sense that they depend on the order Sakurai chose to reveal characters in the past, so they're not particularly ''useful'' unless we determine they have an in-game purpose.
+#*"It can easily be extended." Yes but ''will'' it be? If the next game ignores the numbers, we're left with an incomplete set and might have to remove them. And what happens if someone gets decloned? Melee's clones were absolutely clones at the time; would Sakurai have assigned them "echo" status if he'd considered the idea? We might end up with a per-game list of numbers and that kind of defeats the purpose.
+#*"It's not hard to add them." ...so what? A lot of stuff is "easy", that doesn't mean it's correct.
+#:Now, here's my main argument for leaving the numbers out: There's currently no evidence that the numbers are actually ''important''. I happen to think they're just marketing hype for the "all veterans are returning" shtick. If it turns out that they designate the unlock order or something else in-game, then sure add them to the relevant SSBU pages. (After all, "it's easy", so there's no need to scramble to do it now, right?) But for now? No thanks. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 10:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
+#::Your second point is honestly a pretty big concern. Maybe we could integrate the numbers into the Ultimate column somehow as a solution for the incomplete set thing?
+#::However, I don't think [[SW:OFFICIAL]] means that we shouldn't offer the numbering as an option to sort through the list ''at all''; there's not really any precedent for ignoring official info entirely as far as I can recall. We cover unofficial terms and subjects because that makes it easier to view comprehensive information about the series, so I don't see why that shouldn't be the case for official material as well. I could see plenty of people choosing to sort this list based on Ultimate's order because of how it kind of encapsulates the evolution of the roster. Also, as for the marketing hype point you made, we discuss the Dojo and Pics of the Day pretty often and reference them in articles, so why not do the same for this game's marketing materials? [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 19:29, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
+#:::Yes the officialness point is a weak one, I'm not going to try to debate it. More important are the "what about the future" and "it's not particularly useful" ones. In fact, I thought of something to add to the "not useful" point: even though Sonic was practically added to Brawl after everyone else, late enough to cause a delay, he's not the last Brawl newcomer in the Sakurai Numbers because he was revealed on the website before Dedede and a bunch of others. It's almost anti-useful in that sense.
+#:::The pic-of-the-day stuff is different because it generally always contained in-game content. As far as we know, the numbers do not exist in-game. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 22:48, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''Nah''' The numbering order is confusing, and overall, it's just not important enough to have it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:32, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
+#:What I mean by confusing by the way is that it makes no sense to have "echo" characters listed as the same character, plus it could easily get confused that these numbers are actually character IDs, which they aren't. Also, there's the fact that this order only applies to one game of 5. As far as I know, none of the other games number their characters this way.
+#:Also sorry for the revert, I didn't know this conversation existed., but either way, a consensus should be reached before the change is implemented <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:38, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
+#::This is indeed an additional good point. The fact that clones are marked as a non-number (i.e. a number plus an additional marking) means the entire list cannot be treated as a bunch of numbers. This also aligns with my earlier point about the future - say Daisy gets decloned in SSB6, she goes from 13e to 65 and pushes down everyone after that. Then the whole thing's permanently out of whack until we scale back down to only caring about it on a per-game basis (which isn't relevant to this page specifically). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Quiet 06:46, 25 June 2018 (EDT)
+#'''Omit them.''' Toom and SK have hit the main points for me. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:13, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
+#Whoops! I feel that I posted on the wrong discussion page. I was asking about the characters' numbers on ''Ultimate's'' talk page (https://www.ssbwiki.com/Talk:Super_Smash_Bros._Ultimate) when "[[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]]" told me it was being discussed here. I was under the impression that "Awesomelink234" meant that the discussion for Ultimate's page (and corresponding character pages) was here. If this discussion is for the general list of playable character in ''Smash'', then '''I do not see it working for the previously stated''', as it is just a general list for the series as a whole and is subject to change in the future. Number currently only apply to ''Ultimate''. [[User:47.199.44.226|47.199.44.226]] ([[User talk:47.199.44.226|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/47.199.44.226|contribs]]) 12:34am, 16 August 2018 (EDT)
+:Well then if it only applies to ''Ultimate'', just put the fighter numbers on its character template and leave the rest of them alone. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 21:25, 17 August 2018 (EDT)
-I wasn't ''hugely'' on board with those when they were added either, but I came around while I was editing their colors to be not-terrible.
+===Neutral===
+#I think that at this stage it might be best to wait for the game's release and see if these numbers are used anywhere in the game. If they turn out to just be a trailer thing then no, but if they are actually used in the game somewhere then yes. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 07:09, 25 June 2018 (EDT)
-* I presume the reason "Customizable" exists is because there's some debate as to whether Mii Fighters count as unlockable, considering you can create them immediately after starting the game. In any case, the "Customizable" background color is a subset of the unlockable color. It's like complaining the 3DS Unlockable color conflicts with the regular one.
-* As for transformation characters, they're considered an extension of another character, so the character that actually has a CSS slot is the one that gets the color. Which makes sense to me: it's not like you can unlock Zelda and ''not'' Sheik.
-I think the table is still perfectly understandable with this information in place, so I reckon it should stay. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:53, 15 February 2019 (EST)
-==Move==
-I believe that the page [[non-playable character]] shows all the info on this page about npc's and more, and thus the info on this page should be removed. I also believe that this page should be moved to the page [[playable characters]] I would like to hear other peoples thoughts about this though before doing this.[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra3678]] ([[User talk:Xtra3678|talk]]) 08:12, 25 February 2019 (EST)
-Back to this topic again, as the draft appears to be done and implemented on [[non-playable characters]] and thus, it feels like it is the best idea to remove all npc information on this page, and move this pages address to [[List of playable Characters]], or [[Playable Characters]]. [[User:Xtra3678|<span style="color: Blue;">'''Xtra'''</span>]] [[File:Shulk_SSBU_foruser.png|25px]] [[User_talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color: Purple;">'''Talk'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: #CC0000">'''Edits'''</span>]] 13:51, March 17, 2019 (EDT)
-:I think the new name of this article should be '''Fighters''' (or '''Playable Characters'''), with '''List of fighters''' (or '''List of playable characters''') redirecting to it. In the same respect, I believe [[List of Super Smash Bros. series characters]], [[List of Characters]], and [[Characters]] should redirect to a disambiguation page in case people are looking for [[Non-playable characters]]. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 21:42, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
-::I agree. Right now the title is a little too long.
-::Sounds reasonable to me. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:40, March 27, 2019 (EDT)
-I agree with the move. Since we split this page and the NPC page, we should clarify playability. Also, why on earth is this title so long right now? Instead of saying “List of...” just have it as “playable character” or “fighter”. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:38, May 11, 2019 (EDT)
-Should be Fighter. It's the term that's most often used to describe playable characters by official sources, and it's self-explanatory in regard to playability. --[[User:Burb|Burb]] ([[User talk:Burb|talk]]) 15:46, May 23, 2019 (EDT)
-Bump. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:12, May 30, 2019 (EDT)
-Um, I have yet to see anyone ''against'' the idea, and the move notice has been up for months now. Maybe we should just go ahead. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:59, May 30, 2019 (EDT)
-Yeah there's absolutely no reason to move this page. Like whatsoever. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 01:09, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-:How come? We don’t need to call this page “List of Super Smash Bros. Series Characters” when shorter alternatives exist. We especially don’t need to call this page “List of”, especially when [[unlockable character|other]] [[up tilt|pages]] that are also lists are simply called “unlockable character” and “up tilt”. There’s more to this page than the list; it’s also a description of veterans and newcomers. We don’t need a seven-word title when a one- or two-word title would suffice. I know redirects exist, but there’s no reason the main page should have such a bloated title. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 01:28, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-::Those are not simply lists; they also have a term to define and discuss. "Character" is self-explanatory enough that it does not require much in the way of definition, so this page is primarily a list - and generally speaking, lists on wikis include "List of" in the title. The only shortened form I might be willing to consider would be "List of characters", but even that seems like an unnecessary change to my mind. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 09:30, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-:::”Character” was already off the table, because yeah, I agree, it’s too simple. I was thinking of “Fighter”, since that’s what Salurai mostly refers to them anyways. However, “List of Characters”, “List of Playable Characters”, or “List of Fighters” is actually pretty fair. What deems that unnecessary? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 10:40, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-::::I mean the reason this was named charecter was because it used to include npcs but it no longer includes them so i see no reason to call it charecter anymore, because we can now higher specify its purpose to fighters instead of just charecters. <span style="background:#ea244a;border:outset #906 5px">'''[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra]][[File:Xtra_headpng.png|20px]][[User talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color:Lime">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: Gold">Edits</span>]]'''</span> 10:52, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-:::::I do think that "fighter" as a term is less preferable to use in the page title than "character" or "playable character". I suppose "List of playable characters" could be acceptable as well. But I would certainly encourage you to wait for more input before moving such a major page. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:02, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-::::::My idea: Akin to the [[boss]] page, descriptions could be given to each of the fighters in order to flesh out the article. In that case, this article could possibly lose the 'list of' modifier and become 'playable character' or 'fighter'. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 15:13, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-:::::::This sounds good in concept, but it’s just going to be bloated if we do this with 80 characters. The format of this page is fine. I just think the name should be shortened. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:00, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
-I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring: The article that has the big ol' table of all the stages is titled [[Stage]]. The article that has the big ol' table of all the items is titled [[Item]]. The [[Mode]] article may not have a big ol' table, but it does list all the modes and is ''also'' listed in the sidebar like the rest. If we follow that convention, this page should be titled "Character" or "Fighter". [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 16:24, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
-After further consideration, I'm inclined to support "List of playable characters" over all other options. Can I get an informal Support/Oppose tally on that? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 17:51, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
-:You were actually the only one who opposed a move in general, and since you support a move now, that means there are no oppositions. To specify what each one of us wants, You and I want to rename it to “List of playable characters”, Xtra wanted to rename it to simply “playable characters”, Smore wanted to rename it “Fighter”, I don’t know what Ahemtoday wants, and we may need to have more discussion on which one to rename it too. I think we have a solid consensus that the page should be given a shorter title; it’s what to call it that we’re disagreeing on now. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:03, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
-:'''Oppose''' Granted, this page is primarily a list, but so are other similar pages such as [[non-playable character]] and [[stage]]. More content can always be added (e.g. timeline of when the characters were added; facts and figures on character representation within each game; alternate costume table; etc.) My vote is for '''Fighter''', but I also could get behind '''Playable Character''' with a reference to the term 'fighter' near the beginning of the article (similar to articles with both fan-given and official names). -Also, as Ahemtoday pointed out, all the sidebar articles using the same naming convention would look slick.  [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 23:37, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
-Throw my hat in the ring for '''Fighter'''. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:56, June 3, 2019 (EDT)
-My vote is for '''Fighter''' as well. — [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]] ([[User talk:Ardub23|talk]]) 23:26, June 9, 2019 (EDT)
-:I'm okay with '''Fighter'''. Sakurai likes to call them fighters and the term has been common in the Smash community. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 11:16, June 10, 2019 (EDT)
-::I agree with calling it '''Fighter''', it's easy to understand and convenient. There are a lot of page description characters that forget to add playable premises, Fighters is no ambiguity.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 12:19, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
-:::If my vote counts for anything, I am also in favor of '''Fighter''', so it can match [[Boss]] and [[Stage]]. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 18:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
-So far it looks like everyone except for me and Miles agree on Fighter. I do think we need to shorten this title, but I’m actually relatively flexible. I think Fighter would actually work, though we should probably have more discussion and more reasons given before moving this page. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:03, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
-:Each of the fighters in the game have "As a playable character" in their playable sections on their character pages as well as trivia pages. However, in some cases, I think it is inconstantly used as fighter. A similar inconstancy would be using "universe" over "series" and vise-versa on numerous pages. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 19:13, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
-::Worse comes to worse, we change “as a playable character” to “as a fighter” everywhere. But the two words are interchangeable anyways. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:31, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
-:::Multiple articles (e.g. [[stage]]) have different names (e.g. Japanese, English, official, fan) for themselves. I don't think the inconsistency is a big issue. People know that "fighter" and "playable character" (as well as "character" in context) are interchangeable. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 20:59, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
-::::'''No opinion''' <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:37, June 16, 2019 (EDT)
-'''Bump'''. While it is almost unanimous to move this page to “Fighter” (it does seem truly unanimous that the page should be moved, Miles is suggesting a different move, and Serpent King offered a neutral stance), I believe more discussion should be required, since this is a page that will always have a link on the left side of the page (which would need to be changed when this is moved, so that the link isn’t a redirect). Any comment, particularly from the other two crats, would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 16:30, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
-:Wait. Is this diccusion to change what we refer to the playable characters as, or changing the the page's title from ''"List of Super Smash Bros. series characters''" to "''List of Playable Characters''" or "''List of Fighters''"? If it's the latter, I would think that '''Playable Character''' would makes more sense for what the page is about. But that's just me. Then again, official sources do list them as '''fighters''', and "Playable Character" can simply be mentioned. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 16:39, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
-::We are currently discussing changing the name of this page to '''Fighter''', for consistency with [[Stage]], [[Mode]], and [[Item]]. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 01:21, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
-:::Fighters are more appropriate than playable characters, because BOSS is also playable at certain times.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 06:57, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
-::::'''Support moving to "fighter"''' because it gets the point across. Appending "playable" is superfluous and just a mouthful. If it really comes to having to rename "As a playable character" to "As a fighter", or having the term "fighter" on the sidebar and navigation templates, so be it. Oh, and this page is more than just a "list" so I don't want to keep that in the name. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 17:13, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
-But that is only changing the name of the page itself, and rewriting it to match, right? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 17:27, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
-:I would assume so. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 17:31, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
-::Technically, we don’t really need to change a lot of info though. Calling this page just a “list” is a huge stretch, since it’s a also a description of newcomers and veterans. Anyways, 8 people want to move this to “Fighter”, 2 have suggested “playable character”, and 1 suggested “List of Playable characters”. Several of the “Fighter” people also thoroughly explained their point that the term got the definition across and was officially used. I think we’ve reached a consensus. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:19, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
-:::I was just wondering. Simply just "Fighter" ''would'' be more inline with the other page types. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 15:29, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
-== Pikmin ==
-Now that the move discussion has been finished, I was wondering if it would be alright to add the Pikmin to the Olimar's section in the table. They are on the the character template in parenthesis like Luma, but aren't on here. While I know the character in America is called just Olimar, I still think the section should be called "Pikmin and Olimar", because both are playable fighters. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 12:35, June 26, 2019 (EDT)
-Well, every character on the table uses the same name they have on the CSS in American English. Why should we deviate from that? [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:24, June 26, 2019 (EDT)
-:While I understand that, I think it is a disservice that the Pikmin are no where on this page. They are still classified as fighters, even if they are not in the name. And the character is still called Pikmin and Olimar in Japan, so including them wouldn't be that far out, even if just as a subscript or in parenthesis like in the template. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 18:44, June 26, 2019 (EDT)
-== Add fighter numbers ==
-Since the numbers are "canonical" in Ultimate, why not list the official numbers as an additional column? Might be awkward for Pokemon Trainer (who doesn't have a number, just the individual Pokemon do) but. -[[User:The T|The T]] ([[User talk:The T|talk]]) 10:48, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
-:[[Talk:Fighter/Archive_3#Fighter_Numbers|There was a long discussion about this]], but basically: there is absolutely no indication that these numbers will be useful for titles that aren't Ultimate, or will even remain consistent after it. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 10:54, September 13, 2019 (EDT)
-== Transformation cell color ==
-The transformation cell color is currently pretty similar to the unlockable character color. Could we make it a little bluer, less gray? I can barely tell that Charizard is any different from Captain Falcon or Chrom on Ultimate. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 17:16, September 23, 2019 (EDT)
-== Delete the repeat ==
-Notes 15 and 21 are nearly identical, and one should be removed. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 22:50, February 1, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
-:Correction: 16 and 21, not 15. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 21:51, February 8, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
-::Um, can someone please make that edit? I haven't become autoconfirmed so I can't. [[User:Magolor04726|Magolor04726]] ([[User talk:Magolor04726|talk]]) 20:34, March 3, 2020 (EST)Magolor04726
-:::I got it. --[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 20:40, March 3, 2020 (EST)
-== Some trivia points that need to be purged ==
-''*''Smash 4'' is the first game to feature playable female swordfighters: [[Lucina]], female [[Robin]], female [[Corrin]], and female [[Mii Swordfighter]].
-**[[Koopalings|Wendy O. Koopa]], who appears as an alternate costume for Bowser Jr., is the first female villain to be a playable character in the series.''
-It's kind of arbitrary if a playable character is male or female, no? Especially since Peach has both used weapons in Smash and was an antagonist in Paper Mario TTYD (albiet brainwashed) Samus being the only female character in the first game is notable though, since it was the first game.
-''*[[Wario]] is the only character prior to ''Ultimate'' to debut as a starter before becoming unlockable in another game, as well as the only one prior to ''Smash 4'' to have never had fewer than 8 palette swaps.
-*Prior to ''Ultimate'', the only unlockable characters whose playable status was not kept a secret prior to release were {{SSBB|Snake}} and {{SSBB|Sonic}} in ''Brawl'', and {{SSB4|Lucina}} in ''Smash 4''.
-*Lucina and Wendy O. Koopa (the latter of whom is playable as an alternate model swap for Bowser Jr.) are also the first two unlockable female characters in the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. Unlike Lucina however, it is impossible to face Wendy in an unlock match (due to her only being accessible as a playable character through Bowser Jr.'s alternate costumes).''
-While notable, these are better left on [[Alternate costume]] and [[Unlockable character]] (and I think they're already there, since this trivia section is excessively long.
-''**Conversely, the [[Koopalings]] and the [[Hero]]es from {{uv|Dragon Quest}} ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest III|III]]'', ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest IV|IV]]'' and ''[[Hero#Dragon Quest VIII|VIII]]'' are the only alternate characters who debuted before their base fighter.''
-While the main trivia this is part of makes sense (Alph and Leaf didn't become costumes until Olimar and Red's later appearances), this seems to be only referring to these characters' home series. The Koopalings/Bowser Jr. and Heroes all became playable in Smash in the same game
-''*[[Master Hand]] is playable for one level during [[World of Light]] in ''Ultimate'' ''
-Already mentioned above the list. Redundant as trivia.
-''*When including DLC, every new ''Smash'' game has increased the number of newcomers per game.''
-Most fighting games don't do this, but this isn't really notable because Smash 4 and Ultimate required DLC to make it at that point. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]]|
-:Took out the ones that aren't notable or are better left/already on another page. However I personally find the Hero/Koopaling one interesting, so I seperated them to make more sense. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>''']] 17:46, March 2, 2020 (EST)
-== Adding Totals to the tables. ==
-So I noticed the [[Stages]], [[Boss]], and [[Assist Trophy]] pages each list the total number of each on their tables. Should something like that be added to the table on this page? Maybe like what the Stages table does, and list returning and new fighters separate? [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 19:08, March 11, 2020 (EDT)
+---
-I know it has been months since you discussed this, but we have added the Fighter totals to the page. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 20:09, September 1, 2020 (EDT)
+Alright, looking back on this: it is 10-2 in favor of adding the numbers. If that's not consensus, at least votecount-wise, I'm not sure what is. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Ahemtoday|contribs]]) 04:40, 14 August 2018 (EDT)</small>
+:Just because a lot of people want something done doesn't mean it's necessarily the right thing. I look over the support votes and I don't see a whole lot of ''reasons'' aside from "we should do it because it's official". On the other hand, the oppose section has several reasons that votes in the support section have yet to counter. In any case, I think we should wait for the game to be out before we make a decision, because the most important thing is if the numbers are in-game as opposed to simply in promotional content. (It won't really help their case on ''this'' page, but in SSBU infoboxes and such.) [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 21:34, 14 August 2018 (EDT)
-== Add other considered or intended fighters in a separate category? ==
+== NPC Specification ==
-As there have been several characters who were considered or intended to become fighters, should we make another table for those would didn’t get in? [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 23:19, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
+If we're putting notes about Ridley's Boss/Hazard appearances in the Playable Characters chart, shouldn't we also have ones for Charizard and Little Mac's Pokeball/Assist Trophy appearances? It feels a bit inconsistent not to. --[[User:Burb|Burb]] ([[User talk:Burb|talk]]) 08:12, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
-:This one's not really needed. All it would really do is make the page longer than it actually needs to be. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 23:28, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
-== Dr. Mario, Mewtwo, and Roy considered for Brawl? ==
+== Smash Bros. Universe unlockable characters ==
-As they have fighter data in Brawl, shouldn’t they be intended as there was work put into them? While Sakurai has never said they were planned, the fighter data suggests it. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 23:22, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
+It has been confirmed in the [https://youtu.be/akohTFyGu88?t=22m32s Nintendo Direct: E3 2018] that your starting roster is the original N64 roster, and everyone else will be unlockable. It is discussable if the 4 unlockable N64 characters will be unlockabe too or not, but looking at how it was presented: all 12 characters faded in as he said which were available from the start, and all other characters slided in as he talked about unlocking characters, making it look like all 12 original will be available from the start. [[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 08:17, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
-:I'm going to have to agree on this one. I'm guessing it's because they were not officially confirmed, but because they have unused fighter data it's clear they were intended. According to the {{SSBB|unused content}} page this is epecially the case for Roy and Mewtwo, as they have actual fighter data such as a fanfare. Plus Mewtwo has an unused Wiimote sound file for being selected, so for him it clearly implies that he was intended to be playable, but yet again cut for whatever reason, I'm still confused as to why they chose Jigglypuff over Mewtwo ''twice''. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #18F">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<span style="font-size:12pt"><font color="blue">OmegαToαd64</font></span>]] • [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">the Best Kαrter</font>]]'''</span> 23:59, April 19, 2020 (EDT)
+:The direct didn't use definitive wording. Your roster ''may'' be as small as the original fighters. I don't think that's confirmation. It's more like when Sakurai said there might be one or two more third-party characters in Brawl. He didn't mean it literally; he was introducing it as a concept. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 20:56, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
+::According to [https://youtu.be/Cb3gWV-3_nE?t=3m26s GameXplain's video coverage] of the Famitsu interview of Sakurai and the Ultimate's development; it sounds like it's definitely decided that the starting roster is the Smash 64 roster. At least the non-Smash 64 characters can be marked as unlockable.
+::On the topic of if the unlockable Smash 64 characters will be starters or unlockable; as the statement was that the Smash 64 characters were starters, and not the starter Smash 64 characters were the starters, all 12 should be expected to be unlocked. Looking back at the E3 2018 video, all 12 character faded in (the unlockable a moment after) as he talked about the starters, and everyone else slided in whilst he talked about unlockables.
+::Either way, I think it's starting to be pretty clear that all the non-core 12 characters will be unlockables.
+::[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
-== Quotation pages? ==
+==Wario Was INTENDED for Melee==
-Hello, I was wondering if we could have separate quotation pages for fighters that are playable? There have been sounds and voice clips of every fighter as well as the announcer via https://www.sounds-resource.com/nintendo_switch/supersmashbrosultimate/ so we could also upload the sound clips that correspond towards their quotations. What do you think, should we add pages that show every one of their voice clips? [[User:GameBoy2936|GameBoy2936]] ([[User talk:GameBoy2936|talk]]) 01:27, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+If someone can put intended there he was intended. Source Gaming Sourced many interviews with Sakarai stating had there been more time, Wario wouldve been the first to get in: https://sourcegaming.info/2016/04/29/duflupdate/
+[[User:WARIOLOAFER|WarioLoafer]]
-:What quotations are you talking about? [[User:Son Daniel|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:red;">SonDaniel</span>]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead1.png|20px]][[File:SonDanielSignatureHead2.png|20px]] ([[User talk:Son Daniel|talk page]]) 02:13, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+== About the perfect attendance crew section ==
-::This includes what fighters say when using taunts, abilities, attacks and victory poses, basically wherever they use any of their voice clips. [[User:GameBoy2936|GameBoy2936]] ([[User talk:GameBoy2936|talk]]) 02:42, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+It says that the original 12 will be starters in Ultimate, but on those four fighter pages and the Ultimate page itself it is said that is unknown. If those pages say that then why do we have that information in that section? [[File:George Jones.jpg|25px]] [[User:George Jones|George Jones]] [[File:Walls Can Fall.jpg|25px]] 21:45, 27 July 2018 (EDT)
-:::I would lean towards no, mostly because the Sound Test does that in-game. [[SmashWiki:What SmashWiki is not#SmashWiki is not a resource repository|We're not a resource repository]], so uploading that many sound clips that really aren't necessary for encyclopedic reporting is a bit over the top. But even if we don't upload the sound clips, we already transcribe important quotes (such as taunts and victory poses) in their relevant sections, and anything else would just be variations of grunts. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 02:57, June 7, 2020 (EDT)
+:By leaving them blank since we don't know, that happens to also be the definition of "starter character" for the table. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:08, 27 July 2018 (EDT)
-== Do we really need all the (intended)s and (considered)s and (boss)es clogging up the table? ==
+== I don't really think the "non-playable characters" section should be on this page. ==
-I'm not going to say it's ''useless'' information. It definitely should be somewhere on the wiki. But does it ''really'' need to be right there on the table? This is the page about fighters, so I reckon the only information on the table should be "are they a fighter or not", and "are they unlockable or not", and things like that. Not whether they were intended to be a fighter or whether they were an assist trophy in that game. That goes on that character's trivia section, or on the beta content pages, or on the Assist Trophy page, or at ''least'' in the trivia section of this page or something. I just think it's clogging up the table as it is now, which makes the whole thing a little less cleaner to read. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 12:15, August 15, 2020 (EDT)
+I just got done editing its "Notes" subsection, and working on it made me think about whether it really should be there. Honestly, I don't think it should, and here's a numbered list of reasons as to why:
-== Regarding Transformations ==
+# '''The entire rest of the page is about playable characters.''' Including stage bosses on a page that is mainly about ''playable'' fighters just seems strange to me. I could forgive it if this was a Mortal Kombat situation where the bosses are basically just overpowered regular characters you can't select, but the problem is:
+# '''Most characters on that list behave nothing like playable fighters.''' Tabuu and Metal Face are in no way beholden to the same rules as regular fighters, which makes it weird that they're on this page. The notes on Sandbag literally admit it's not treated as a fighter anymore.
+# '''The list is a mishmash of characters with completely different roles, with barely any common thread between them.''' Multi-Man Smash teams, Sandbag, stage bosses, Subspace bosses, regular stage hazards, old bosses that are just variations of fighters - the list is ''all'' over the place. And, yes, there's a distinct definition on the page of what the list includes, but the problem is:
+# '''The definition of the list - "can fully interact with playable characters in-game, but are normally non-playable" - could also extend to every defeatable Assist Trophy and every single Subspace and Smash Run enemy.''' Of course I'm not suggesting we actually add all of these in, but the point is: if we actually were comprehensive about this list, it would be ludicrously massive.
-Does there need to be a Transformation background for fighters? They already have references linking the fighters to being transformations and it doesn’t affect their availability. Wouldn’t it make more sense to have them be denoted as starters (with the exceptions of Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard in Ultimate as they’re unlockable with Pokémon Trainer)? [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 12:19, September 3, 2020 (EDT)
+So, in short, the list is so broad that it's a jumble of miscellaneous information shoved into an article that it's not really under the purview of. What do we do about it?
-I think them being transformations (and therefore effectively being part of another fighter) is a pretty major thing that warrants something more attention-grabbing than a footnote. After all, all the characters with blue backgrounds don't have their own space on the CSS. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 08:33, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
+Well, my suggestion is as follows:
-The issue is that Zelda and Samus also have the blue background despite appearing on the CSS. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 10:50, September 4, 2020 (EDT)
+# '''Remove the current form of the list from this page entirely.''' As I said above, the page is about playable characters aside from that one segment, and many characters in that segment don't resemble fighters at all.
+# '''Add a cross-game table to the [[Boss]] page.''' This table can include the Hands, Subspace bosses, and stage bosses - but not Sandbag or the Flying Man or whatever.
+# '''The rest of the information is already elsewhere on the site.''' The Flying Man and Nabbit don't fill up a table on their own, so they don't really need one. Same with Sandbag. There's already the [[enemy team]]] page to get the Fighting Team information.
-Huh? ...You're right, they do. I could've sworn they didn't. In my opinion, they ''shouldn't'', and I think it was that way at some point, but maybe it was changed? Anyway, yeah, those two and Pokémon Trainer should have regular backgrounds. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 19:33, September 13, 2020 (EDT)
+It's voting time! [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
-== Reused assets for playable characters. ==
+=== Remove the NPC Table ===
-This is a topic that i already discussed on my talkpage, but given the large amount of reused assets, i wondered if any of the playable characters also reuse things like animations, models and etc from their home games. Apperently, according to comments from users or admins on the Model Resource, Sonic uses his model from Sonic and the Secret Rings but with different textures and edited model data, while Snake's model is his Sneaking Suit model from Metal Gear Solid 2 with different textures and Big Boss' head model from Metal Gear Solid 3. In addtion, Kazuya reuses his
+# '''Remove it.''' I mean, I brought it up in the first place. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:01, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
-Tekken animations, some of which are almost 30 years old, while Ryu might reuse animations from Street Fighter IV and its updates. I don't have any model or animation viewing software or something like that, so can't verify if this is actually true. And for those wondering, im not counting reused from previous Smash games. So does anyone know any other potential asset reuses for playable characters?  [[User:GameDestroyer2008|GameDestroyer2008]] ([[User talk:GameDestroyer2008|talk]]) 16:43, November 14, 2022 (EST)
+# '''Remove.''' Change the name of the article to "List of Super Smash Bros. series fighters". An article including all characters in Smash could be made with this article's current title as a compromise. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 00:16, 19 August 2018 (EDT)
-:You don't seem to be making a distinction between re-used assets and re-created assets. Barring rare exceptions, I think it's safe to assume that models and animations for fighters are made specifically for Smash and that similarities to existing assets are because Smash is trying to represent the source material faithfully. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 18:50, November 14, 2022 (EST)
-:The only confirmed instance of a fighter reusing a model from somewhere else is with Ganondorf in Melee, where his model was taken from the Spaceworld 2000 GameCube Zelda Tech Demo due to his very late inclusion. Other similar models are purely speculation. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#28282B;border:solid FF0000 5px;border-radius: 4px;padding:1px 3px;color:#FF0000">Diddy Kongstar</span>]] 00:35, November 20, 2022 (EST)
-Just from how many different games have the Smash Bros games reused assets in general? [[User:GameDestroyer2008|GameDestroyer2008]] ([[User talk:GameDestroyer2008|talk]]) 06:59, December 3, 2022 (EST)
-== Page name ==
+=== Keep the NPC Table ===
+# The page is not strictly about playable characters. The name even says "List of Super Smash Bros. series characters"; nowhere does that imply exclusively covering playable ones. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:11, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
+#:(Am I allowed to reply in indents like this?) Indeed it doesn't, but by that logic, this page should technically include every character that's ever been in Smash Bros.: Assist Trophies, Subspace enemies, and non-fighting stage hazards like Kraid included. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 10:19, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
+#::(You are, but use #s and colons instead of spaces; the latter messes with how it looks on the page.) Perhaps I wasn't clear: I'm not necessarily supporting keeping it as I am pointing out a flaw in your argument; this page isn't exclusively "playable characters" as you have made it out to be, and instead is generally about characters. Though, if you want a counter to your claim that we should include everything, pages shouldn't be so large that they cannot load; the one we are discussing is already 37KB in size, and including all references to every character would make it even bigger. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:35, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
+#:::I'll concede the page isn't currently exclusively about playable characters, and that we shouldn't include literally every character ever mentioned in Smash Brothers. However, if we ''aren't'' going to mention literally everyone, we need to draw a distinct line between what's included and what isn't - and the current line is fuzzy at best, wherein every Smash Run enemy and every damageable Assist Trophy "should" be included in the NPC table according to the definition of what goes there (but ''not'' according to common sense). With this in mind, I'd say that ''making'' the page about playable characters would draw a completely unambiguous line, fix all the issues I mentioned previously, and trim down the page. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 11:57, 11 August 2018 (EDT)
+#::::Maybe we define it as characters that are mandatory to fight in a single player mode but cannot be selected in multiplayer? This would include Subspace enemies and bosses but exclude Assist Trophies, stage bosses, and Smash Run enemies. I’m sure it could be optimized further to be more sensible. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 21:43, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
+#:::::That definition leaves us with 58 characters on that list, most of which are stuff like Primids and Floows. Not really a fan of having such a bloated list. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:05, 12 August 2018 (EDT)
-I'd label the page with a move tag, but it seems just from general discussion that people can't decide on a name, so we're gonna gain consensus on what name this page should be called.
+== Unused Brawl Characters ==
-This page was originally called '''character''', which wasn't terrible, but [[#Move|gathered enough outcry]] to warrant a move to the (at the time of this post) currently existing name of '''fighter'''. In attempting to figure out peoples' stances on this, the idea to move it to '''playable character''' was proposed, which I admit to not being opposed to myself. However, I think a single name decided under consensus should be utilized, so feel free to leave your thoughts here. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Gamer'''</span>]] 13:50, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+According to Sakurai, Villager, Pac-Man and the Miis were all supposed to end up in Brawl but they didn't for varying reason. Should they be mentioned on the table since other cut characters are mentioned? (Dr Mario, Roy, Ice Climbers etc.). Thanks [[User:Ice Cream Melee|Ice Cream Melee]] ([[User talk:Ice Cream Melee|talk]]) 10:15, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
-: '''Playable character''': "Character" in general seems to be a more common term than "Fighter"; however, I would much rather have "Playable character" since it is more specific and is also consistent with our [[Non-playable character]] page. And then "Character" can just be simply redirected there too. '''[[User:Voqéo|<span style="background:#000; color:white; padding:2px 6px;font-size:12px;">Voqéo</span>]][[User talk:Voqéo|<span style="background:#e70012; color:white; padding:2px 4px;font-size:12px;">T</span>]]''' 13:58, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+:The same is also true for Chrom in Smash 4 [[User:Ice Cream Melee|Ice Cream Melee]] ([[User talk:Ice Cream Melee|talk]]) 10:18, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
-: '''Playable character''': as per Voqéo. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 14:00, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
+::The difference there is that they're not necessarily unused, but rather "considered but never implemented". [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 11:04, 16 September 2018 (EDT)
-: '''Playable character''': as per Voqeo and SenorMexicano [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color: Red; 0px">Seahawk</span>]] [[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color:Lime;">(talk)</span>'']][[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] 14:12, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
-: '''Leaving it''' is preferred but '''Playable character''' would be fine. To quote a short essay I wrote a few years ago, ''"I would argue that, while SmashWiki may not be official, putting the use of official terminology first and foremost if possible is conducive to its agenda on the whole."'' The word "character" by itself has a specific singular definition in the dictionary, but "fighter" is the Smash term for, collectively, whoever or whatever you are playing as. Some fighters include multiple separate characters, and that's not to mention the fact that "character" by itself doesn't even tell you that it's someone you play as. The word could include NPCs, bosses, and spirits for all we know. '''A term commonly used in the community isn't necessary helpful for information purposes.''' So if you ask me, "Fighter" feels like a no-brainer page name, but if you insist on using more fan-agreeable terminology, "Playable character" does tick the right boxes since it's technically not unheard-of in the realm of official use, and establishes dichotomy from [[Non-playable character]]. Sincerely, '''[[User:Ender R. Musk|<span style="color:#cc00fa">Ender</span>]] [[User talk:Ender R. Musk|<span style="color:blue">Rhapsody</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ender R. Musk|<span style="color: #012061">Musk</span>]]'''. 14:14, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
-: '''Playable character''' --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 18:16, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
-: '''Playable character''': As far as I know, the term "Fighter" has only fully replaced "Character" in Ultimate, and in Smash 4 the two terms were used interchangeably. I support "Playable character" because it covers the most games and because "Character" is too vague. It's pretty rare for someone to call Melee characters "fighters", for example. [[User:Levii|Levii]] ([[User talk:Levii|talk]]) 18:29, October 31, 2023 (EDT)
-: '''Fighter''' is concise, specific, and easily understood. And I think there's value in the fact that it's a Smash term: When you're talking about fighters, you know you're talking about the ''Super Smash Bros.'' series. League has champions, Dota has heroes, Smash has fighters. And yes, the context of being on this wiki can clue you in that you're talking Smash, but using 'fighter' gives the discourse that distinctive Smash flavor, while 'playable character' is beige and bland. —[[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]] ([[User talk:Ardub23|talk]]) 22:17, November 1, 2023 (EDT)
-:I say '''leaving it as-is''' would be preferable, but changing it to '''Playable character''' would be ok, as per [[User:Ender_R._Musk|Ender]] and [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]]. - [[User:Aykrivwassup|Aykrivwassup]] ([[User talk:Aykrivwassup|talk]]) 01:20, November 5, 2023 (EDT)
-: I'd say '''Fighter''' for the similar reasons as [[User:Ender_R._Musk|Ender]] and [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]]. It's a concise way of labeling playable characters and I've recently been seeing more people use the word "fighter". [[User:Diddy Kongstar|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#28282B;border:solid FF0000 5px;border-radius: 4px;padding:1px 3px;color:#FF0000">Diddy Kongstar</span>]] 23:36, November 7, 2023 (EST)
-::Maybe it's because I'm only really involved in the competitive side of the community, but I honestly don't really see "figher" used too commonly. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 16:46, November 9, 2023 (EST)
-:'''Fighter'''. Although Smashwiki is not official, I think everyone can agree that the smash team themselves is pushing that name, [https://youtube.com/watch?v=K_z28RqWDU4 such as with the latest Sakurai video], or terms like "Fighters Pass" or "Echo Fighter". Even disregarding official-ness though, "playable character" is just way too generic, and, as Ardub said, using "fighter" gives the wiki its own "smash flavor". [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 12:37, November 10, 2023 (EST)
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