Editing Talk:Fighter

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== Kill the "non-playable characters" section and rename this to List of playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters ==

It's time we define this articles scope so we can quit having these long drawn out articles. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:49, 11 February 2019 (EST)
:Slight change to this proposal (if anyone who has already voted has a problem with it leave a comment below), This article is to be split into '''List of playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters''' and '''List of non-playable ''Super Smash Bros.'' series characters.''' <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 18:58, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::If this page is going to be a list of '''all''' playable characters (as opposed to just the playable fighters on the character select screen), there should probably be an addendum about [[Master Hand (SSBU)]]. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 19:22, 27 February 2019 (EST)

===Support===
# '''Remove.''' According to the official Smash website, the playable characters are known as "fighters". I propose changing the name of the article to "List of Super Smash Bros. fighters". An article including all (or just the non-playable) characters in Smash could be made with this article's current title as a compromise. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 17:34, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Support if and only if''' the non-playable characters receive their own article. If this is decided against, then I oppose. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 17:38, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Support, as long as we define character'''. Are Smash Run enemies considered characters? Subspace? WoL? If not, then why not? Why are boss characters counted then? If we were to list all the characters in the ''Smash'' series, this page'll be incredibly long. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 17:36, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#:This article would become only playable characters, another one created for nonplayables...this is more of a split than a move now that I think on it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
#Definitely '''lop that section off into its own article.''' I made a section about this earlier (though without a vote), so of course I'm on board. We can hash out stuff like alternate characters and genders and what an NPC should be later, but if one thing gets done I'd want it to be that article getting sliced. (Also, I second Smore's idea of making this page into "Fighters" or "List of SSB fighters" or something of that nature.) [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:26, 12 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Immence support''' The chart in this page has been moved to the page [[non-playable characters]] and it fits more on that page anyway. it just makes sense to have this page be exclusivly playable charecters.[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra3678]] ([[User talk:Xtra3678|talk]]) 08:04, 25 February 2019 (EST)
#'''Support.''' A page for List of Super Smash Bros. fighters and a separate on with NPCs sounds good. The Character page could be left as a redirect. --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 18:39, 4 March 2019 (EST)

===Oppose===
===Neutral===
*'''Depends''': I support this on the basis of two circumstances: that the non-playable characters get their own page, and that major alternate characters are listed under the main ones. Alternate characters are ''still'' playable, therefore deserve having a section here. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:56, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::Would not be against having a nonplayable article. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 13:57, 11 February 2019 (EST)
::We could also have a small section for background characters, and links to the Pokemon and AT list articles<span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]]&nbsp;[[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]]&nbsp;[[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 14:11, 11 February 2019 (EST)

== Customizable and Transformation ==

Use background color to represent "Customizable" and "Transformation" conflict with "Unlockable", and these have notes. so should delete.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 23:05, 14 February 2019 (EST)

I wasn't ''hugely'' on board with those when they were added either, but I came around while I was editing their colors to be not-terrible.

* I presume the reason "Customizable" exists is because there's some debate as to whether Mii Fighters count as unlockable, considering you can create them immediately after starting the game. In any case, the "Customizable" background color is a subset of the unlockable color. It's like complaining the 3DS Unlockable color conflicts with the regular one.
* As for transformation characters, they're considered an extension of another character, so the character that actually has a CSS slot is the one that gets the color. Which makes sense to me: it's not like you can unlock Zelda and ''not'' Sheik.

I think the table is still perfectly understandable with this information in place, so I reckon it should stay. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:53, 15 February 2019 (EST)

==Move==
I believe that the page [[non-playable character]] shows all the info on this page about npc's and more, and thus the info on this page should be removed. I also believe that this page should be moved to the page [[playable characters]] I would like to hear other peoples thoughts about this though before doing this.[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra3678]] ([[User talk:Xtra3678|talk]]) 08:12, 25 February 2019 (EST)

Back to this topic again, as the draft appears to be done and implemented on [[non-playable characters]] and thus, it feels like it is the best idea to remove all npc information on this page, and move this pages address to [[List of playable Characters]], or [[Playable Characters]]. [[User:Xtra3678|<span style="color: Blue;">'''Xtra'''</span>]] [[File:Shulk_SSBU_foruser.png|25px]] [[User_talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color: Purple;">'''Talk'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: #CC0000">'''Edits'''</span>]] 13:51, March 17, 2019 (EDT)
:I think the new name of this article should be '''Fighters''' (or '''Playable Characters'''), with '''List of fighters''' (or '''List of playable characters''') redirecting to it. In the same respect, I believe [[List of Super Smash Bros. series characters]], [[List of Characters]], and [[Characters]] should redirect to a disambiguation page in case people are looking for [[Non-playable characters]]. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 21:42, March 23, 2019 (EDT)
::I agree. Right now the title is a little too long.
::Sounds reasonable to me. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 02:40, March 27, 2019 (EDT)

I agree with the move. Since we split this page and the NPC page, we should clarify playability. Also, why on earth is this title so long right now? Instead of saying “List of...” just have it as “playable character” or “fighter”. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:38, May 11, 2019 (EDT)

Should be Fighter. It's the term that's most often used to describe playable characters by official sources, and it's self-explanatory in regard to playability. --[[User:Burb|Burb]] ([[User talk:Burb|talk]]) 15:46, May 23, 2019 (EDT)

Bump. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 03:12, May 30, 2019 (EDT)

Um, I have yet to see anyone ''against'' the idea, and the move notice has been up for months now. Maybe we should just go ahead. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 23:59, May 30, 2019 (EDT)

Yeah there's absolutely no reason to move this page. Like whatsoever. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 01:09, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
:How come? We don’t need to call this page “List of Super Smash Bros. Series Characters” when shorter alternatives exist. We especially don’t need to call this page “List of”, especially when [[unlockable character|other]] [[up tilt|pages]] that are also lists are simply called “unlockable character” and “up tilt”. There’s more to this page than the list; it’s also a description of veterans and newcomers. We don’t need a seven-word title when a one- or two-word title would suffice. I know redirects exist, but there’s no reason the main page should have such a bloated title. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 01:28, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
::Those are not simply lists; they also have a term to define and discuss. "Character" is self-explanatory enough that it does not require much in the way of definition, so this page is primarily a list - and generally speaking, lists on wikis include "List of" in the title. The only shortened form I might be willing to consider would be "List of characters", but even that seems like an unnecessary change to my mind. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 09:30, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
:::”Character” was already off the table, because yeah, I agree, it’s too simple. I was thinking of “Fighter”, since that’s what Salurai mostly refers to them anyways. However, “List of Characters”, “List of Playable Characters”, or “List of Fighters” is actually pretty fair. What deems that unnecessary? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 10:40, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
::::I mean the reason this was named charecter was because it used to include npcs but it no longer includes them so i see no reason to call it charecter anymore, because we can now higher specify its purpose to fighters instead of just charecters. <span style="background:#ea244a;border:outset #906 5px">'''[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra]][[File:Xtra_headpng.png|20px]][[User talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color:Lime">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: Gold">Edits</span>]]'''</span> 10:52, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
:::::I do think that "fighter" as a term is less preferable to use in the page title than "character" or "playable character". I suppose "List of playable characters" could be acceptable as well. But I would certainly encourage you to wait for more input before moving such a major page. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:02, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
::::::My idea: Akin to the [[boss]] page, descriptions could be given to each of the fighters in order to flesh out the article. In that case, this article could possibly lose the 'list of' modifier and become 'playable character' or 'fighter'. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 15:13, May 31, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::This sounds good in concept, but it’s just going to be bloated if we do this with 80 characters. The format of this page is fine. I just think the name should be shortened. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 18:00, May 31, 2019 (EDT)

I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring: The article that has the big ol' table of all the stages is titled [[Stage]]. The article that has the big ol' table of all the items is titled [[Item]]. The [[Mode]] article may not have a big ol' table, but it does list all the modes and is ''also'' listed in the sidebar like the rest. If we follow that convention, this page should be titled "Character" or "Fighter". [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 16:24, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

After further consideration, I'm inclined to support "List of playable characters" over all other options. Can I get an informal Support/Oppose tally on that? [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 17:51, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
:You were actually the only one who opposed a move in general, and since you support a move now, that means there are no oppositions. To specify what each one of us wants, You and I want to rename it to “List of playable characters”, Xtra wanted to rename it to simply “playable characters”, Smore wanted to rename it “Fighter”, I don’t know what Ahemtoday wants, and we may need to have more discussion on which one to rename it too. I think we have a solid consensus that the page should be given a shorter title; it’s what to call it that we’re disagreeing on now. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:03, June 2, 2019 (EDT)
:'''Oppose''' Granted, this page is primarily a list, but so are other similar pages such as [[non-playable character]] and [[stage]]. More content can always be added (e.g. timeline of when the characters were added; facts and figures on character representation within each game; alternate costume table; etc.) My vote is for '''Fighter''', but I also could get behind '''Playable Character''' with a reference to the term 'fighter' near the beginning of the article (similar to articles with both fan-given and official names). -Also, as Ahemtoday pointed out, all the sidebar articles using the same naming convention would look slick.  [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 23:37, June 2, 2019 (EDT)

Throw my hat in the ring for '''Fighter'''. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 22:56, June 3, 2019 (EDT)

My vote is for '''Fighter''' as well. — [[User:Ardub23|Ardub23]] ([[User talk:Ardub23|talk]]) 23:26, June 9, 2019 (EDT)

:I'm okay with '''Fighter'''. Sakurai likes to call them fighters and the term has been common in the Smash community. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 11:16, June 10, 2019 (EDT)
::I agree with calling it '''Fighter''', it's easy to understand and convenient. There are a lot of page description characters that forget to add playable premises, Fighters is no ambiguity.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 12:19, June 12, 2019 (EDT)
:::If my vote counts for anything, I am also in favor of '''Fighter''', so it can match [[Boss]] and [[Stage]]. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 18:36, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

So far it looks like everyone except for me and Miles agree on Fighter. I do think we need to shorten this title, but I’m actually relatively flexible. I think Fighter would actually work, though we should probably have more discussion and more reasons given before moving this page. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:03, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
:Each of the fighters in the game have "As a playable character" in their playable sections on their character pages as well as trivia pages. However, in some cases, I think it is inconstantly used as fighter. A similar inconstancy would be using "universe" over "series" and vise-versa on numerous pages. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 19:13, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
::Worse comes to worse, we change “as a playable character” to “as a fighter” everywhere. But the two words are interchangeable anyways. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:31, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
:::Multiple articles (e.g. [[stage]]) have different names (e.g. Japanese, English, official, fan) for themselves. I don't think the inconsistency is a big issue. People know that "fighter" and "playable character" (as well as "character" in context) are interchangeable. [[User:Smore|Smore]] ([[User talk:Smore|talk]]) 20:59, June 14, 2019 (EDT)
::::'''No opinion''' <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:37, June 16, 2019 (EDT)

'''Bump'''. While it is almost unanimous to move this page to “Fighter” (it does seem truly unanimous that the page should be moved, Miles is suggesting a different move, and Serpent King offered a neutral stance), I believe more discussion should be required, since this is a page that will always have a link on the left side of the page (which would need to be changed when this is moved, so that the link isn’t a redirect). Any comment, particularly from the other two crats, would be greatly appreciated. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 16:30, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
:Wait. Is this diccusion to change what we refer to the playable characters as, or changing the the page's title from ''"List of Super Smash Bros. series characters''" to "''List of Playable Characters''" or "''List of Fighters''"? If it's the latter, I would think that '''Playable Character''' would makes more sense for what the page is about. But that's just me. Then again, official sources do list them as '''fighters''', and "Playable Character" can simply be mentioned. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 16:39, June 22, 2019 (EDT)
::We are currently discussing changing the name of this page to '''Fighter''', for consistency with [[Stage]], [[Mode]], and [[Item]]. [[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 01:21, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
:::Fighters are more appropriate than playable characters, because BOSS is also playable at certain times.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 06:57, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
::::'''Support moving to "fighter"''' because it gets the point across. Appending "playable" is superfluous and just a mouthful. If it really comes to having to rename "As a playable character" to "As a fighter", or having the term "fighter" on the sidebar and navigation templates, so be it. Oh, and this page is more than just a "list" so I don't want to keep that in the name. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 17:13, June 23, 2019 (EDT)

But that is only changing the name of the page itself, and rewriting it to match, right? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 17:27, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
:I would assume so. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 17:31, June 23, 2019 (EDT)
::Technically, we don’t really need to change a lot of info though. Calling this page just a “list” is a huge stretch, since it’s a also a description of newcomers and veterans. Anyways, 8 people want to move this to “Fighter”, 2 have suggested “playable character”, and 1 suggested “List of Playable characters”. Several of the “Fighter” people also thoroughly explained their point that the term got the definition across and was officially used. I think we’ve reached a consensus. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:19, June 24, 2019 (EDT)
:::I was just wondering. Simply just "Fighter" ''would'' be more inline with the other page types. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 15:29, June 24, 2019 (EDT)

== Pikmin ==

Now that the move discussion has been finished, I was wondering if it would be alright to add the Pikmin to the Olimar's section in the table. They are on the the character template in parenthesis like Luma, but aren't on here. While I know the character in America is called just Olimar, I still think the section should be called "Pikmin and Olimar", because both are playable fighters. [[User:Xm0c|Xm0c]] ([[User talk:Xm0c|talk]]) 12:35, June 26, 2019 (EDT)
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