Editing Talk:Competitive philosophy

==Deletion discussion==
I'm not sure whether "competitive philosophy" is with the scope of this wiki. We have articles on things like [[cheap]] and [[broken]], but this feels even more detached from "the Super Smash Bros. series". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Golden 16:35, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

:I'd like to point out that [[SmashWiki is not a strategy guide]], and while it may not directly apply here, I feel it applies in spirit. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 16:44, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

::I concur with you both, in addition to the fact that this page is based on one person's opinion and isn't objective. '''Delete''' [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 16:53, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

:I agree that it should only be a userspace page. [[User:Scr7|<font style="color:#0000FF">S</font><font style="color:#7F7FFF">c</font><font style="color:#00FFFF">r</font>]][[User talk:Scr7|<font style="color:#FF7F00">7</font>]][[File:Wolfsig.png|19px|link=Special:Contributions/Scr7]] 16:59, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

:This might actually explain some good stuff about competitive play, but I don't think this is a proper article. '''Delete'''. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">Do</font>]][[User talk:Dots|<font color="blue">t</font><font color="purple">s</font>]] [[File:MewtwoMS.png]] The Solid Snake 10:05, 5 August 2013 (EDT)

I think it's fine myself, it's been applied to suit ''Smash Bros.'', and discusses a matter that is relevant competitively. '''Keep'''. [[User:ToastUltimatum|{{Color|#ff8c00|'''Toast'''}}]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|{{Color|#01a3c4|'''ltimatum'''}}]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 19:29, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

'''Keep but alter''' I think an article explaining the goals and workings of competitive play is fine, but make the article sound less like an essay and remove the self-aggrandising bits. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:15, 4 August 2013 (EDT)

:I suggest that '''if nobody wants to significantly alter the article then remove it'''. I know it sounds dramatic, but moderators should consider t0mmy's privileges to alter the content of the article or any one similar. He has spread the content of the article across several forums and wikis[[http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=152476 1]][[http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/Competitive_Philosophy 2]][[http://smashboards.com/threads/standardized-ruleset-development-idea.338459/#post-15698932 3]]. The content is always little more than David Sirlin's treatise on competitive play applied to Smash Bros. yet he treats it like the word of God. The article in question is inaccurate. t0mmy did not popularize the use of term "Competitive Philosophy", it is not used anywhere by anyone outside of his posts, nor is David Sirlin's viewpoint on competition generally acknowledged by the Smash community. --[[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]]) 01:22, 5 August 2013 (EDT)
::I knew Tommy was definitely aggrandising bits, and Sirlin is not often speak of in the competitive community. However, "competitive philosophy" is something that definitely explains how competitive players generally play, which is content of interest to the Wiki. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 01:47, 5 August 2013 (EDT)
:::If we're keeping this I'll replace the Delete tag with a Cleanup. [[User:RoyboyX|<font color="red">'''Roy'''</font><font color="gray">'''boy'''</font><font color="darkred">'''X'''</font>]] [[User talk:RoyboyX|''<span style="color:brown;">'''Talk'''</span>'']] 20:24, 7 August 2013 (EDT)

:Competition is probably the most important topic when it comes to the Smash Community (composed of competitive players). There are countless posts on forums and elsewhere regarding this topic, but when I communicated with fellow players/rules-theorists I found there was no standard or proper definitions being used.
What I'm seeking to do is help lay a foundational understanding of "competition" to facilitate communication. Doing so is no easy task, especially when there is virtually no material to reference, which is why a short-sighted view may suppose I am taking Sirlin's work as "the word of God".
However, I have read through similar Wikipedia articles in their Philosophy portal to create this new entry - what we have here is I believe called a "stub" that needs to be expanded. I've laid the groundwork and am willing to keep working on this to fit the proper criteria as I want this to be in an acceptable format. Excuse me for referring to myself, but in a "history" section I would be mentioned because it is important to trace this back through me to people like Sirlin and then outside Smash/eSports competition.
Direction is very much welcome - I'd very much some solid reference for the "why" behind how competition is played out - if the community wants proper communication within the scope of a very important topic I believe this needs an article here. Suggest to be a Stub and this needs much alteration. [[User:T0mmy|T0mmy]] ([[User talk:T0mmy|talk]]) 14:18, 12 August 2013 (EDT)
:Sign your posts with <nowiki>~~~~</nowiki>. <span style="font-family:Triforce, sans-serif;">'''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=#008000>D<font color=#008019>o<font color=#008031>c<font color=#008049>t<font color=#008062>o<font color=#008080>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]'''</span> 14:11, 12 August 2013 (EDT)
Thanks for showing me how to sign/timestamp; I found the page detailing that and other examples.
Also, thanks to the majority of you who are helping bring this up for entry. Let's keep it as objective and helpful as possible. Suggestions as to content and direction of entry requested.
[[User:T0mmy|T0mmy]] ([[User talk:T0mmy|talk]]) 13:13, 16 August 2013 (EDT)

==Cleanup Discussion==
I am moving references to David Sirlin's work to a "Further Reading" section as it has yet to be demonstrated to be explicitly relevant to or accepted by the Smash community. I suggest someone rename "Further Reading" to something more accurate since I am expressively handicapped. The opening paragraph suggested the community acknowledges there is a study of competitive values and that has been corrected. I suggest someone try to elaborate on the statement, "More generally competitors refer to competitive philosophy as 'playing to win'," as it doesn't seem to follow that 'playing to win' is competitive philosophy. Additionally, the history of philosophy in competition goes back beyond David Sirlin. Sirlin is just an author in the field of game theory. I think the history of competitive philosophy is beyond the scope of this wiki, so I renaming the section. Since the rest of the section is not substantiated and suggests there has been a community ponderance and acceptance of David Sirlin's work, it is being temporarily substituted with my dribbling inanity. [[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]]) 04:54, 17 August 2013 (EDT)

==Competitive Philosophy History==
It would be nice to have a veteran substantiate some of the statements made because the section is mostly based on observational and few records for some of the statements exist. I'd also like to see some of the earlier rulesets described. Bonus cookies for each game. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Quilt|Quilt]] ([[User talk:Quilt|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Quilt|contribs]]) 4:00, 23 August 2013</small>

== Delete ==

Apparently I supported this article staying way back when it was first created, but looking at it now, it definitely has to go. The article was started as T0mmy's personal essay regurgitating Sirlin's philosophy that he was plastering on every Smash site at the time (as Quilt shown in his first post on this talk page, T0mmy even fucking tried making an article of it on Smashpedia), content that should have clearly remained in his user space. The article was touched up over the years, but it primarily serves to describe basics of competitive play in an overly verbose manner, and the bulk of the page is now just shoddy and brief competitive history overviews of each Smash game, content that is much better covered in the various "in competitive play" articles (e.g. [[Super Smash Bros. Melee in competitive play]]). I don't see any way to salvage this article, but if someone has an idea, they can whip something up before this article purged like it should have been a decade ago. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:14, March 17, 2024 (EDT)

'''Support''' I never understood the point of this article. I tried making a few edits to make it more unique, but I'm fine with it just being deleted.[[User:The Other Jared|The Other Jared]] ([[User talk:The Other Jared|talk]]) 21:20, March 17, 2024 (EDT)

'''Move to userspace''' and let it languish there forever. [[User:Stuart98|Stuart98]] ([[User talk:Stuart98|talk]]) 21:22, March 17, 2024 (EDT)
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 == Delete ==
-Apparently I supported this article staying way back when it was first created, but looking at it now, it definitely has to go. The article was started as T0mmy's personal essay regurgitating Sirlin's philosophy that he was plastering on every Smash site at the time (as Quilt shown in his first post on this talk page, T0mmy even fucking tried making an article of it on Smashpedia), content that should have clearly remained in his user space. The article was touched up over the years, but it primarily serves to describe basics of competitive play in an overly verbose manner, and the bulk of the page is now just brief and shoddy competitive history overviews of each Smash game, content that is much better covered in the various "in competitive play" articles (e.g. [[Super Smash Bros. Melee in competitive play]]). I don't see any way to salvage this article, but if someone has an idea, they can whip something up before this article is purged like it should have been a decade ago. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:14, March 17, 2024 (EDT)
+Apparently I supported this article staying way back when it was first created, but looking at it now, it definitely has to go. The article was started as T0mmy's personal essay regurgitating Sirlin's philosophy that he was plastering on every Smash site at the time (as Quilt shown in his first post on this talk page, T0mmy even fucking tried making an article of it on Smashpedia), content that should have clearly remained in his user space. The article was touched up over the years, but it primarily serves to describe basics of competitive play in an overly verbose manner, and the bulk of the page is now just shoddy and brief competitive history overviews of each Smash game, content that is much better covered in the various "in competitive play" articles (e.g. [[Super Smash Bros. Melee in competitive play]]). I don't see any way to salvage this article, but if someone has an idea, they can whip something up before this article purged like it should have been a decade ago. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:14, March 17, 2024 (EDT)
 '''Support''' I never understood the point of this article. I tried making a few edits to make it more unique, but I'm fine with it just being deleted.[[User:The Other Jared|The Other Jared]] ([[User talk:The Other Jared|talk]]) 21:20, March 17, 2024 (EDT)
 '''Move to userspace''' and let it languish there forever. [[User:Stuart98|Stuart98]] ([[User talk:Stuart98|talk]]) 21:22, March 17, 2024 (EDT)
-'''Support'''. This is just a glorified "History of ''Smash''" article that has little to do with philosophy, and the parts that somewhat resembles a discussion on philosophy was just taken straight from another source, which explains why it feels like a news article rather than a wiki page. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 00:54, March 18, 2024 (EDT)
-'''Support'''. Didn't know this existed at all until now. It's little more than a wordy blurb on metagame discussion loosely tying it to some random philosophy dissertation with a lot of fluff from other pages. I can't see it being turned into anything worth keeping. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii|class=sprite]] '''[[User:Nokii|<span style="color:#86F">Nokii</span>]] ·''' 02:08, March 18, 2024 (EDT)
-'''Support'''. I didn't even know that there was an article based on the concept of "Competitive Philosophy". As OT said, other articles explain the basics of Tournament Rulesets and healthy environments more than this --[[User:Tacho99|Tacho99]] ([[User talk:T@cho|talk]]) 12:27, March 18th, 2024 (EDT)
-'''Support''' / maybe '''Merge'''. There is no reason for this article to exist. The one interesting piece is how competitive smash developed. And what conditions led to players being able to increasingly commit to a career in smash. But that can be detailed in articles on the competive history of smash. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 12:34, March 18, 2024 (EDT)
-'''Support'''. If this is basically just a personal opinion, then get it out of the mainspace. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Gamer'''</span>]] 11:23, March 20, 2024 (EDT)
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