Editing Talk:Blaster (Fox)

== Merge ==
This was taken from a different talk page as it was said the topic/conversation is better suited here. The points listed are taken from said conversion that was almost a month ago. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 23:41, April 23, 2019 (EDT)

==='''Blasters'''===

'''Series:''' Star Fox

'''User(s):''' Fox, Falco, and Wolf.

Among the reasons stated in the previous conversation to '''Merge''': Same Name, Same Origin.

Among the reasons stated in the previous conversation to '''Split''': Works differently.
:'''Note:''' Currently, the only moves to function the same with different names are Luigi's and Rosalina's Final Smashes in ''Ultimate''. However, the reason for the name change was aesthetic. (''Ultimate'' changed the appearance of what they used for their FS) 
::'''Note 2:''' Those are also Final Smashes, not Special moves.

''Aside from what has already been listed above'', what ''other reasons'' could there be to split or merge them? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 23:41, April 23, 2019 (EDT)

It been about a week. If no one appears to oppose the notion, should I just merge them? [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 21:24, April 28, 2019 (EDT)

Merge fox and Falco lasers

Keep Wolf’s as separate page [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 15:00, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
:But why not merge Wolf's as well? There's not much on Wolf's Blaster that would really warrant separation from Fox's and Falco's. If its differences, all three pages already list differences from each Blaster, probably because its the same move used by three different characters. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 18:27, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
::Wolf’s blaster has a different model, different looking lasers, and a completely different animation. Falco’s Blaster was Fox’s in the first game. I personally think they should be separate, but I can understand the mentality of merging Falco’s but not Wolf’s. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:13, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
:::But models, lasers, and animations are all just aesthetics. All they change is how the move ''looks'', not works. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 20:14, May 1, 2019 (EDT)
::::Doesn't Wolf's lasers fire a lot more slower and deal more damage, though? The change between his blaster's and Fox's/Falco's is a lot more bigger than the one between Fox's and Falco's. [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 09:23, May 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::The differences between wolf and fox's blaster is about the same kind of differences between Mario and Luigi's [[Fireball]] (which i may note do share a page) different looks and aesthetics, as well as different properties, but overall look and act pretty similar still and have the same name. Overall, despite having different properties, they are overall still similar enough to be deserving of the merge, especially since they are all 3 from the same series. <span style="background:#ea244a;border:outset #906 5px">'''[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra]][[File:Xtra_headpng.png|20px]][[User talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color:Lime">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: Gold">Edits</span>]]'''</span> 10:28, May 7, 2019 (EDT)
::::::Saying that Fox and Wolf share the same neutral special because they shoot a gun is like saying that Samus and Snake share a side special because they both shoot missiles, or that Fox and Wolf also share a neutral special with Joker because they all have guns. Different models, different projectiles, different uses, different animations, I could go on. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:07, May 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::Moves that have the same name, but the users come from different series (regardless how similar it works) get separate pages, as is the case with the move "Thunder". We have [[Thunder (Pokemon)]] as there's more than one user from ''Pokemon'' (Pikachu & Pichu), and [[Thunder (Robin)]] as he is the only ''Fire Emblem'' character to use it. You can compare Samus and Snake's move from a technical standpoint, but not as the same move in terms of a page as the characters are from different series. Fox, Falco, and Wolf are all from ''Star Fox'', and they each have a move called "Blaster". If not able to do the same combos and techniques with all three are a main concern, those tend to change depending on the installment (which can be noted). Other moves have had slight differences, but were/are enough to give them their own page as they had different names, similarly, despite others having more noticeable differences, they share the page as they have the same name and come from the same series.
:::::::As Xtra3678 mentioned, Xtra created a draft (User:Xtra3678/Blaster) on how it can/could look like if they get merged. If one does not like how it looks, then they try editing it in a way that make seance. (I would suggest looking at other moves with multiple users so it looks similar.) [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 14:30, May 7, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::Why is name/universe a factor in keeping them merged? While it does make finding the page easier, this obviously isn't the first time two things in Smash (or even two moves) shared the same name, as you mentioned. Besides, keeping two or more moves in one page because they share the same name and are used are members of the same universe limits their possibility. As mentioned by several within this discussion, the differences between the blasters (especially Wolf's) are major enough to warrant their own pages. Relating to this, Mario's Fireballs should be separated from Luigi's, Richter's Holy Water should be separated from Simon's, etc. Unless if two moves are almost exactly the same and they share the same name, they should should be separated. It'll take a bit of work, but I feel like it would be best to keep these two split. Besides, [[Megavitamins]] has its own page, so... [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 09:50, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
::::::::::If name/universe is not a factor then there would need to be justification for not merging Ganondorf and Captain Falcon's special moves or Omnislash with Secret Ninja Attack. Also [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]], you are suppose to only reply after a person's signature, not within their post. [[Help:Talk_page|It makes things confusing otherwise]]. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 19:09, May 15, 2019 (EDT)
:::::::::::Apologies for that, the amount of text there is made it confusing. As for that, the visuals are radically different for the first, while for the latter, Omnislash deals 50% while Secret Ninja Attack deals 52%. These moves are easy to tell apart just from looking at them, which I feel is the point I'm trying to make. If the move either has majorly different effects, damage output, lag, etc, then the move should be separated. While I could see Fox and Falco's being combined (albeit with a grain of salt), Wolf's is definitely able to be told apart from Fox's/Falco's blasters. Hopefully this all makes sense. (Edit: Looking at Falco's neutral B compared to Fox's, I think there were be a lot more salt from me than just a grain if they were combined.) [[User:Crazy456Rhino|Crazy456Rhino]] ([[User talk:Crazy456Rhino|talk]]) 12:23, May 16, 2019 (EDT)
There is also a draft of what the merged blasters page would look like (can be found at User:Xtra3678/Blaster), and the current draft keeps literally all of the wolf information on wolfs page, in its own seperate heading, keeping all the current information and not messing up anything. It could even be improved in order to show how it is still a very different projectile from the other 2 starfox charecters, however in its current state there should be no problems with the move being "too different to share a page" because it clearly shows off its differences in the draft page.<span style="background:#ea244a;border:outset #906 5px">'''[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra]][[File:Xtra_headpng.png|20px]][[User talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color:Lime">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: Gold">Edits</span>]]'''</span> 10:41, May 7, 2019 (EDT)

Merge fox and Falco’s blaster and keep wolf blaster as it’s on page [[User:Thegameandwatch|Thegameandwatch]] ([[User talk:Thegameandwatch|talk]]) 17:18, May 8, 2019 (EDT)
:Quoting myself from before: "''But why not merge Wolf's as well? There's not much on Wolf's Blaster that would really warrant separation from Fox's and Falco's. If its differences, all three pages already list differences from each Blaster, probably because its the same move used by three different characters.''" [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 21:10, May 8, 2019 (EDT)
::As I said before, Falco’s and Fox’s blasters use the same model for the gun and the laser. Wolf’s looks nothing like either of theirs, both the model and the laser, and all act very differently as well. If the issue is that they have the same origin, Wolf’s doesn’t even have one. Fox and Falco use blasters that look similar to those from Star Fox 64. Wolf’s was created solely for for Smash bros. I’m neutral for merging Falco’s and Fox’s, but Wolf’s blaster is one of the worst things to suggest a merge for. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:24, May 8, 2019 (EDT)
:::Like I mentioned before, the differences of the "models" are just aesthetic, which just a ''visual'' difference. (I feel we're beginning to go in circles) The Blasters in ''Smash 4'' have different customs but they are still the same move. Although they have different custom names, so do Link and Toon Link's [[Bomb (Link)|bombs]] which are on the same page and are considered the same move. In the case with Origin, it does not seem to matter if Wolf's has no Origin in comparison as it seems that Wolf's Blaster is just based on Fox's (plus its currently just copy pasted information on the page). [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 22:17, May 8, 2019 (EDT)

:::So what your saying is that you think the 1 laser blaster looks different from the other laser blaster, and has a slower laser but other than that is mostly identical in origin, origin series, name, how you use it, and generally the way it is portrayed in smash, and has also been proven to be reliably able to show differences if put on the same page as the other blaster due to the draft, and yet you still think these 2 moves are radically and instrumentally different and would be "one of the worst things to suggest a merge for" despite all the shown reasons to be merged. It doesn't add up. the reasons you have supplied are greatly outweighed by the reasons to do the merge. Please just look at User:Xtra3678/Blaster for one second and then look at [[Blaster (Wolf)]] and please tell me what's so different between the 2 that makes it such a bad decision. <span style="background:#ea244a;border:outset #906 5px">'''[[User:Xtra3678|Xtra]][[File:Xtra_headpng.png|20px]][[User talk:Xtra3678|<span style="color:Lime">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Xtra3678|<span style="color: Gold">Edits</span>]]'''</span> 00:04, May 9, 2019 (EDT)
::::I did read the draft. I stated this when the original merge proposal was happening, and I’ll say it again: why would I want Fox and Falco’s advanced techniques if I’m trying to search up something for Wolf? Why would I want to know about their customs and throws if Wolf has none of that? And I already talked about how you wanted them merged because they “share” an origin. Except they actually don’t. Wolf’s blaster was created specifically for Brawl, which is evident by its gigantic overhaul in Ultimate. Fox and Falco use actual designs and lasers from the Star Fox games. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 01:15, May 9, 2019 (EDT)

I strongly '''oppose''' any ideas of merging these pages again. We agreed to separate them several years ago, after several years of them being bunched together. "Looks similar, used in similar fashion" does not justify sticking three mechanically-different moves on the same page. By that logic, we should put every counter on the same page, as well as merging Dancing Blade/Double-Edge Dance and Palutena's Bow/Silver Bow together. The mistake we made several years ago was not going a step further and separating Mario and Luigi's respective Fireballs and all other moves with mechanical differences that are still merged. The only moves I can see being on the same page are moves shared between Echo Fighters, but even that's a stretch, if you ask me. It's not like we need to condense these pages for lack of server space. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 00:51, May 9, 2019 (EDT)
:Are some you people not even reading what is being said? Given the info provide by both sides, I say merge them all. From where I see it, the splitters are ignoring what the mergers are saying and repeating the same information despite already being answered! (argumentum ad nauseam) I don’t mean to upset, but please read the info provided and use it in the argument instead of only repeating yourselfs! I’m sorry, but regardless of what I said and assume is true, non of the reasoning said by the splitters for splitting makes any sense to me whatsoever. I really don’t mean to come off as annoye or rude, but I felt I needed to say something about this. Have a nice day otherwise. [[Special:Contributions/208.54.85.240|208.54.85.240]] 02:19, May 9, 2019 (EDT)
::I have read everything that was said, thank you very much. Suggesting that the splitters are ignoring the mergers' points is not constructive to the argument, since the same claim can be made the other way around since there is not consensus on this issue. I'm in agreement with Lou Cena here for the most part, and I would say that it should require a large consensus either way to change anything, since there is no sign of compromise. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 00:00, May 10, 2019 (EDT)

Considering we keep repeating the same information to the point that neither side is currently able to convince other, I suggest that those of us who have already stated our opinions (including myself) should wait until ''more'' people join the discussion. Perhaps then, more options will come up from new opinions. [[User:Wolff|&#32;Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 18:49, May 12, 2019 (EDT)

Okay so here's my opinion: don't merge them. Why? I'll use the reflector rationale, as all the Star Fox characters have a reflector, Falco shares a completely different model and effect and all-in-all how the move works while Fox and Wolf are similar enough. The lasers for Fox, Falco, and Wolf are different in some ways and I don't want to explain them all. It's the same thinking as for why Fireball and Super Jump Punch for both Mario and Luigi are wanted to be split apart as they have different effects and hitboxes. We need to keep a consistent documentation of these similar moves as in merging or splitting them up in their own pages. Since the moves are similar, but not exactly the same (i.e. Daisy and Peach's turnips) I believe they should have a different page as the function of the moves are different (Fox and Falco's) and are not entirely the same (Falco and Wolf's). [[User:El&#39;s Bladeworks|Eletro]] ([[User talk:El&#39;s Bladeworks|talk]]) 04:23, June 21, 2019 (EDT)

:The issue is that all of the Blasters are identical to each other and come from the same series. The Reflectors should also share the same page. <s>The same series rule doesn’t really apply well as Palutena’s Down Special is listed in the Counter page despite the other characters being from Fire Emblem.</s> Having these moves be separate pages just involuntarily increases the number of pages when they can just be one page like other special moves that share the same name and similar functionality. [[User:Diddy Kongstar|Diddy Kongstar]] ([[User talk:Diddy Kongstar|talk]]) 19:39, September 12, 2020 (EDT)

== Move ==

I believe that the 64 version of the move could be moved to "Blaster Shot" (which was the move's name in 64). Besides its different name, the 64 version of the move is functionally very different to its later game equivalents. In addition to this, some moves which saw a less drastic change to their functionally (such as [[Hammer Flip]] and [[Bow and Arrows]] compared to [[Hammer (move)|Hammer]] and [[Hero's Bow]]) already have their own pages compared to their counterparts in earlier games. 

Because of this, I feel that it would be a good idea to separate Fox's 64 Blaster Shot from his Melee/Brawl/4/Ult Blaster. [[User:SuperSqank|SuperSqank]] 08:03, 7 October 2020 (EDT)
:'''Support split''' for consistency's sake. <span style="color:#f6b">---</span>[[User:PinkYoshiFan|<span style="color:#F6B">Pink</span>]][[User talk:PinkYoshiFan|<span style="color:#F6B">Yoshi</span>]][[Special:Contributions/PinkYoshiFan|<span style="color:#f6b">Fan</span>]] 08:24, October 7, 2020 (EDT)
:'''Oppose''' The changes made to the move aren't substancial enough, in my opinion, to warrant an entire page of their own. The move only had those properties in Smash 64 as well. I think it's better to write a few lines detailing the changes made in ''Melee''s section rather than an entire page that will likely be pretty small. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 13:42, October 7, 2020 (EDT)
:'''Oppose''' The change isn't that important so it should be the same [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: red;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon3.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: cyan;">The Nerd </span>'']] 13:45, October 7, 2020 (EDT)
:It's alright if you all disagree. It's not anything major or anything I desparately want but I just think that it wouldn't be a terrible idea, mainly due to consistency sake (and it would make writing a general overview of the move (which should apply to all games) much easier). I don't even think those two moves I mentioned in my original post should have been separated either but that's not a discussion to be discussed here. [[User:SuperSqank|SuperSqank]] 14:43, 7 October 2020 (EDT)
::I agree Link's neutral special should have never been split (except for the name in the box at the bottom of the page). Hammer Flip is a different deal entirely though. [[User:Zeckemyro|Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck]] ([[User talk:Zeckemyro|talk]]) 15:01, October 7, 2020 (EDT)

== Split ==

'''Oppose'''. I get where the idea is coming from, and Blaster Shot is a pretty unique case in a transition from one game to another. However, I believe the resulting split article would create too much confusion for our readers. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 06:56, February 21, 2021 (EST)

'''Support'''. I am of the school of thought that different name and functional differences always warrant a split. Overall it would be consistent with how other pages have been handled. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 08:58, February 21, 2021 (EST)

:Bump. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 20:31, February 25, 2021 (EST)

'''Oppose'''. While there is a clear difference, it's still rather minor and splitting this can cause some confusion. [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omegα Toαd,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toαd Wαrrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(BUP)</font>]]''' 21:24, February 25, 2021 (EST)

'''Support'''. This functional difference is akin to the differences between [[Bomb]] and [[Remote Bomb]]. This is a very big difference in terms of application and utility. I seriously doubt users would not be able to understand the differences between the 64 variation and the later variation, especially considering the 64 article would include 64 images and the template at the bottom clearly links to later iterations. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 10:00, March 7, 2021 (EST)
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	'''Support'''. This functional difference is akin to the differences between [[Bomb]] and [[Remote Bomb]]. This is a very big difference in terms of application and utility. I seriously doubt users would not be able to understand the differences between the 64 variation and the later variation, especially considering the 64 article would include 64 images and the template at the bottom clearly links to later iterations. [[User:SenorMexicano\|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano\|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 10:00, March 7, 2021 (EST)		'''Support'''. This functional difference is akin to the differences between [[Bomb]] and [[Remote Bomb]]. This is a very big difference in terms of application and utility. I seriously doubt users would not be able to understand the differences between the 64 variation and the later variation, especially considering the 64 article would include 64 images and the template at the bottom clearly links to later iterations. [[User:SenorMexicano\|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano\|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 10:00, March 7, 2021 (EST)

	'''Support'''. I don't see the "confusion" argument when we have disambuigation and "if you're looking for this go here" notes, we've gone through this song and dance with many pages before. With the precedent involving [[Bomb]] and [[Remote Bomb]] on top of this, it seems like a clear case for a split. Let's be consistent. Señor Mexicano hit the nail on the head. --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png\|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma\|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma\|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png\|20px]] 13:24, March 7, 2021 (EST)
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