Editing Talk:Armor

I tried adding a table, and as you can see, it was an EPIC FAIL! I suck at tables, please somebody fix this one.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:yellowgreen">SmOrEkInG</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:turquoise">Talk</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:turquoise">Contributions</span>]]''' 12:48, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

==Move this to Super armor?==
Under the principle of giving techniques their used names instead of official names. I see super armor used far more than launch resistance in Smash discussions. It's also a common fighting game term in general, and it's even official as of Smash 4 in-game tips. [[User:Pseudo-dino|Pseudo-dino]] ([[User talk:Pseudo-dino|talk]]) 19:51, 13 May 2015 (EDT)
:It shouldn't be though. Super Armor does not accurately describe the effect, launch resistance does. '''Oppose''' [[User:Serpent_King|<span style="color:#008833; text-shadow:-1px -1px #00bb77;">'''Serpent King'''</span>]] [[User talk:Serpent_King|(<span style="color: blue;">talk</span>)]] 13:33, 14 May 2015 (EDT)
:I support moving it. "Super armor" is a commonly-used term (even on this wiki), and so is more likely to be immediately understood than "launch resistance". I don't find the latter to be particularly descriptive anyway, because it doesn't really imply a resistance to ''flinching''. [[User:Zyrac|Zyrac]] ([[User talk:Zyrac|talk]]) 13:51, 14 May 2015 (EDT)
:If we're changing it shouldn't it just be moved to "Armor" though? Super armor is just one type, doesn't describe all of it. [[User:Bazkip|Bazkip]] ([[User talk:Bazkip|talk]]) 19:48, 15 May 2015 (EDT)
:For the sake of avoiding confusion about what the term of "Super Armor" actually means, it would be best if the page stayed as is. If a change is necessary then "Armor" would suffice as long as the word "Super" is left out of it, because that word implies that the resistance is infinite, which isn't always the case when considering the many different forms of launch resistance. True Super Armor completely resists knockback of all magnitudes (AKA infinite launch resistance, a property but Melee's Giga Bowser has at all times) while damage is taken normally. I've frequently heard commentators describe Yoshi's double-jump as having "Super Armor", a term that not only applies to something different, but also fails to bring up the unique knockback-subtracting limitation of Yoshi's double-jump. "Launch resistance" provides the best general description of Super Armor and all variations of Heavy Armor in my opinion, but the one downside of it that I could see is that [[invincibility]] could technically be considered as a state wherein launches are resisted. This could be circumvented entirely by changing the name of the page to simply "Armor" so that armor can be widely recognized as a state of launch resistance that also involves taking damage. [[User:Shockbound|Shockbound]] ([[User talk:Shockbound|talk]]) 18:19, 24 May 2015 (EDT)
::'''Support''' a move to Armor. [[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: lime">'''Nyargle'''</span><span style="color: orange">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[User talk:Nyargleblargle|Talk]]) 19:05, 17 June 2015 (EDT)
::'''Oppose''' The term "launch resistance" is more intuitive. We could note Super Armor as another term for this in the page. [[User:Berrenta|Berrenta]] ([[User talk:Berrenta|talk]]) 12:47, 9 July 2015 (EDT)
:Sorry for being late, but me, I '''support''' a move to Armor. As far as I know, armor typically described in most cases as near-proofing to completely proofing (Ex. bulletproof and bulletproof armor) and resistance is typically described as the lessening, but not completely removing all of a particular effect. Launch resistance is more something that could describe Shulk's Shield Monado Art in my opinion. [[User:15DollarsWentSouth|15DollarsWentSouth]] ([[User talk:15DollarsWentSouth|talk]]) 16:31, 8 September 2015 (EDT)
I '''support''' move to Super Armor, not Armor. It's now the official name, and it's widely used. Doesn't matter if it isn't as self-describing of a name as "launch resistance." Are the terms "Sex Kick" or "Wavedashing" any more descriptive of their respective functions? Nada. [[User:Smashedpotatoes|Smashedpotatoes]] ([[User talk:Smashedpotatoes|talk]]) 02:43, 11 September 2015 (EDT)

'''Oppose''' Launch resistance is much more straightforward than super armor. Besides, if official names were mandatory, instead of up tilt, for example, we'd have strong up attack. It doesn't even sound as well. [[User:Drill Blaster Mark 2|<span style="color:Gold">'''Drill Blaster'''</span> <span style="color:LightBlue">'''Mark'''</span> <span style="color:Crimson">'''2'''</span>]] ''([[User talk:Drill Blaster Mark 2|<span style="color:Grey">talk</span>]])'' 05:11, 1 November 2015 (EST)

Bump. I plan to move the page to Armor later this week, but I'd like a bit more input. [[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: blue">'''Nyargle'''</span><span style="color: orange">'''blargle'''</span>]] Let's go Mets! ([[User talk:Nyargleblargle|Talk]]<span style="font-weight:bold;">&nbsp;·</span> [[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 12:26, 1 November 2015 (EST)
:I planned to a week ago. Yeah I '''support''' this. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: brown;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:brown;">'''The Thankful Evil Clone'''</span>]] 12:36, 1 November 2015 (EST)
::For what it's worth, I'm still in ''oppose''. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#008833; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #00bb77;">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#eed000; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #ffd000;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 13:22, 1 November 2015 (EST)

So, let's recap. We have... 4 oppositions, 3 "move to Super Armor" supports and 4 "move to Armor" supports. I, for one, am waiting for what Nyargleblargle has to say. [[User:Drill Blaster Mark 2|<span style="color:Gold">'''Drill Blaster'''</span> <span style="color:LightBlue">'''Mark'''</span> <span style="color:Crimson">'''2'''</span>]] ''([[User talk:Drill Blaster Mark 2|<span style="color:Grey">talk</span>]])'' 07:54, 2 November 2015 (EST)

== Yoshi’s Double Jump Armour in Ultimate ==

As a dedicated Yoshi main across all the games, I’ve noticed that Yoshi’s double jump armour appears to have reverted to its SSB iteration, where if the threshold is broken, then Yoshi only takes the difference in knockback, rather than the full knockback. Is anyone able to confirm this? My experience on this is merely subjective, and I cannot tell for certain if it is true or not. I’m sure it is, I just cannot confirm it. [[Special:Contributions/121.44.234.43|121.44.234.43]] 21:24, 8 March 2019 (EST)
:In case my IP changed, I’m the same person posting here. I put this to the test, determining how far one attack launched Yoshi, vs how far the same attack launches him when the attack is powerful enough to break his armour. The amount of knockback taken was SIGNIFICANTLY less than normal, proving that Yoshi’s DJA uses the pre-Brawl mechanics. What I cannot confirm is exactly what the threshold is. [[Special:Contributions/1.129.108.222|1.129.108.222]] 00:45, March 12, 2019 (EDT)

== Some armor data that I know of ==

I know a lot about the different forms of armor in Ultimate but am not sure how to make the page optimized for Ult's new types. So, I'm leaving data here in hopes someone can do it.

===Yoshi's Double Jump: Subtractive Armor===
Yoshi's Double Jump Armor is known as '''Subtractive Armor''', taking up to 150 Units of knockback before it breaks. Once it breaks, Yoshi takes the difference in KB. 150 Units of KB is very, very high. It starts F1 and ends once the double jump animation is over. 

===King K. Rool's [[Belly Super Armor]]===
I'm pretty sure that K. Rool's armor could easily be taken from the Belly Super Armor page, or given a "See Also" appearance. 

===Damage-based ("Heavy") Armor===
Damage-based Armor is a form of armor that requires a specific damage threshold to break. It scales in 1v1 (so it'll multiply by 1.2x), effectively rendering it unaffected. It is however affected by freshness. I know a bunch of characters with this as I've been making bumper spreadsheets with them against every move. So, I'll list the data I have here;
* King K. Rool's has 6% (7.2%) on Crownerang from F5-63
* Incineroar has 11.99% (14.388%) on Cross Chop from F4-15, as well as his Alolan Whip Throws (F1-4 Failure, F1-58 Lariat, Duration of animation for Back Body Drop)
* Bowser has 4% (5%) on his tilts, 8% (9.6%) on USmash and DSmash, and 10% (12%) on FSmash. Not sure about the specifics on frame data, but [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1HZgiCY0ee7C8-yPBLo2rZVu4cZdMx_VauNafxZW3zDw/edit?usp=sharing I have this sheet] that can help you figure that out.
* Captain Falcon has 10% (12%) on Raptor Boost's Attack specifically, from F1-4. 
* Terry has 5% (6%) on Power Geyser, F1-14, and 8% (9.6%) on Buster Wolf, F1-15
* Charizard has 15% (18%) on Flare Blitz from F23-53.
* Ryu and Ken's Focus Attack start at 16.8 (1v1, don't have normal data, going by ShotoCord), going up by 0.289% per frame, before capping at 33.6%. The [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rwDPL1jhE-KuEbbcBkkTb44z1smJp9rYme_xb4BIJTk/edit#gid=2047852515 param sheet] says 7% to 14% but this certainly isn't reflected in-game, so I'm not sure exactly how this works. 
* Little Mac's Straight Lunge starts at 8% (9.6%), until it turns to 14% (16.8%) upon max charge release. Not sure about frame data.
* Piranha Plant has 15% (18%) on Long-Stem Strike, not sure about the exact frames. 
* Snake's Cypher takes 7% (8.4%) for Snake to be knocked off and remove the damage-based armor, but on a side note also takes 13% (15.6%) for Cypher to completely break.
This is all I know of but I am 90% sure there's more that I may have forgotten.

===Super Armor===
* Donkey Kong's Headbutt has Super Armor from F5-14, I believe this is unchanged from S4 but I can very easily be wrong.
* Charizard's Fly has Super Armor (at least I believe it does, [https://rubendal.github.io/ssbu/#/Character/Charizard the scripts] say damage no reaction w/a 0 which usually means it) from F4. Fun fact, it transitions with a Super Jump Punch flag on F11, likely for the trajectory it goes at.

===Knockback-based Armor===
* Bowser's [[Tough Guy]] takes 20 KB Units
* DK's Kong Karry takes 16 Units upon beginning a throw.

This is all I know of, hopefully it's enough to kick the page into high gear. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 09:49, December 24, 2019 (EST)

== Split Proposal ==

I talked with Serpent King in the Discord, and I feel that this page should be split into the various armor categories while keeping this as a general explanation. I have many reasons for this.

* '''Every form of armor has different properties.''' Grab armor, Damage-based (or 'heavy') armor, Super Armor, Subtractive Armor and more all have different properties setting them apart from others. Some are damage-based, some are knockback-based, some don't even care. The only consistency that they really have is that hitlag is sustained, but I believe even grab armor has something different going on there. 

* '''This page, if it were completed, would be exceedingly long.''' Explaining every form of armor is its own ball game, and if this page wants to serve its purpose as an exhaustive explanation on each it would become one of the longest pages on the wiki. ''Ultimate'' has a massive amount of armor already and making a table for each one without categorization will be extremely messy.

* '''The tables here are already very disorganized.''' Brawl has the active frames, Smash 4 does not. On top of this, neither have anything saying clearly what the armor is, instead placing it in the notes. This makes it difficult to really tell what everything is at a glance. If they had their own pages you could easily specialize the tables for the armor in question. For example, Damage-based armor could have active frames and the threshold clearly stated, with maybe notes for things like Snake's Cypher's HP. 

* '''There is precedent for armor types to have their own pages with [[Belly Super Armor]].''' We have Yoshi's double jump armor (or, Subtractive Armor) on this armor page, yet K. Rool's Belly Super Armor has its own page and not even a reference here. Both of these I believe are fighter abilities, so at minimum there should be a split there. The Belly Super Armor page, in my opinion, shows exactly how the pages for other forms of armor could go: in-depth explanation with a clear list of what moves have it. Given this, at minimum, I believe that Yoshi's Subtractive Armor should have its own page. 

Of course you may ask how we go about this. I have the perfect idea for this. Leave this page as a form of disambiguation, with let's say a general explanation on how armor works. Then, list off the armor pages for players to link to them. Kind of like how neutral attack pages go. I feel this would greatly aid users in learning how this mechanic works. If you're after any data on armor, I have a small albeit slightly incomplete list above. Of course Smash 4, Brawl, Melee and 64 have not been considered. I'm fully willing to help make these into pages.

Hope you consider my proposition, and thanks for reading! --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 16:22, January 2, 2020 (EST)

:If there is to be a split, it should be like we have for [[meteor smash]]es: a page for the mechanic, and per-game pages for the lists of what has it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Riotous 16:48, January 2, 2020 (EST)
::This is a fantastic idea and would help flesh out the mechanics a lot more while keeping everything accessible. We could also use this to explain how the armor worked in each game, a "changes from x" sort of thing. Not sure if there's many like that though, I know Yoshi had a change regarding it. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 16:53, January 2, 2020 (EST)
:::I '''support''' splitting this page with one page for the mechanic and individual lists for armor per character. It sounds like a good idea, especially since this page is so huge. [[Special:Contributions/72.203.118.154|72.203.118.154]] 17:55, January 2, 2020 (EST)

I've made a page as an example of what the pages could look like '''[[User:Plague_von_Karma/Damage-based_Armor|here]]''', with damage-based armor. Can be mainspaced if there is enough support for the split.--[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 07:10, January 4, 2020 (EST)
:This is not the split I supported. I suggested a split into:
:*[armour]
:*[List of armoured attacks (SSBB)]
:*[List of armoured attacks (SSB4)]
:*[List of armoured attacks (SSBU)]
:Splitting the main mechanic page into subtypes would not be necessary if we instead split the main source of the bloat (the lists). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 08:57, January 4, 2020 (EST)
::I know, I made this as a draft so the information is easier to put into categories. I'm moving house in 2 days so I don't have as much time as I'd like to make drafts of categories. Of courses, if you want to edit all that in, I'm A-OK with it. - [[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 09:30, January 4, 2020 (EST)
:::Been a while but I followed through and got [[List_of_armoured_attacks_(SSBU)|the first list page]] sorted. Sorry for the wait. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 23:46, February 5, 2020 (EST)
::::Got S4 data sorted [[List_of_armoured_attacks_(SSB4)|here]]. Brawl is luckily logged on this page so I'll likely pull it from there. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 10:56, February 10, 2020 (EST)
:::::[[List_of_armoured_attacks_(SSBB)|Brawl list is done now as well.]] That's everything I believe. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 12:50, February 10, 2020 (EST)

Just want to bump the discussion a bit. Any thoughts on my pages? --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 19:02, February 21, 2020 (EST)

Got approval from Toomai to beam everything up. This was a wild ride from start to finish! --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 21:51, February 29, 2020 (EST)
:That's an insane amount of information you put into all of those pages, and I love it. I'm glad you were able to stick through the whole thing. I have only one, small thing to possibly add and that is redirects for the lists for those of us who use 'armor' instead of 'armour'.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 22:08, February 29, 2020 (EST)
::I uh...don't know how to do that, actually. --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 23:30, February 29, 2020 (EST)
:::Just did it for my first time. It is <nowiki>#REDIRECT [[target]]</nowiki>. Just go to an 'invalid' page, create, and put that in there.--[[User:CanvasK|CanvasK]] ([[User_talk:CanvasK|talk]]) 23:36, February 29, 2020 (EST)
::::Sorted. That should be everything! --[[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:King K. Rool SSBU.png|20px]] 23:46, February 29, 2020 (EST)

==Rename "Knockback-based Armor" to "Heavy Armor"?==
In many external sources and even some Youtube videos, I have heard people refer to Knockback-based Armor as "Heavy Armor".I think that it would be better to call it Heavy Armor on the wiki. Not only is it more widely used, but it's much quicker to write and say. That's just my opinion, though.[[User:Thecontributor22|Thecontributor22]] ([[User talk:Thecontributor22|talk]]) 18:46, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
:So when I was doing the rewrite for the page, there were issues with using the Heavy Armor umbrella of terminology. I wound up having conversations with a few contributors about it in the end, and wound up using these terms. Kurogane Hammer coined them, uses them on his frame data sheets, and I feel it's far more effective. Few people actually know what "Heavy Armor" is supposed to mean. The meaning of it is extremely blurred and is often applied to Damage-based Armor as well. People also tend to use "Light Armor" for smaller values. It's obnoxious. This has led to armor becoming one of the most misunderstood mechanics in the game when there are much simpler, defined terms to use. It's also much easier to abbreviate, with KB Armor and % Armor being common notation, at least in my circles. [[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 19:02, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
::I agree with Plague here. Heavy armor tends to be too vague a term as not only is it commonly confused with super armor by beginners (who are more likely to refer to this part of the wiki), but it doesn’t properly identify the grounds by which the armor can be interrupted. The terms we currently use are definitely the best ones, cemented further by similarly agreed-upon terminology in other games.[[User:Rc52|Rc52]] ([[User talk:Rc52|talk]]) 19:18, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
::I support Plague's argument as the terminology is already confusing/unintuitive for newer players because of armor definitions varying amongst veterans of the series. Having the Heavy/Light Armor excaberates the issue of having no solid definition. [[User:Lekis|Lekis]] ([[User talk:Lekis|talk]]) 19:25, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
::I think Plague's wording just makes more sense. It explains the mechanics easily without being confusing. No reason to muddle it up again. [[Special:Contributions/50.89.179.76|50.89.179.76]] 19:59, August 30, 2020 (EDT)
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