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Talk:Clone/Archive 3: Difference between revisions
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::::''You're wrong about everything except for the physics, but character physics don't dictate clone status. That said, I do think that ''special move physics'' do, which is why Wolf should be considered a semi-clone of Fox since their sets of specials share an archetype (down B reflector, blaster neutral B, angular up B, flash side B).'' | ::::''You're wrong about everything except for the physics, but character physics don't dictate clone status. That said, I do think that ''special move physics'' do, which is why Wolf should be considered a semi-clone of Fox since their sets of specials share an archetype (down B reflector, blaster neutral B, angular up B, flash side B).'' | ||
::::I'm pretty sure Mario and Luigi don't share taunts, victory poses, or (most of their) animations. And there are a large number of moves that aren't shared besides specials. And the only specials that are in any way the same are fireball and Super Jump Punch, and Super Jump Punch is pretty different. BY definition, a clone is identical to its original. Clearly that's not true in smash, but you can't distance very far from the original. A semi-clone, therefore, has slightly more major differences but still with several being the same- for example, Falco's blaster can't rapid-fire and his reflector is nearly completely different, but they share several similarities in Fox Illusion/Falco Phantasm, Fire Fox/Falco, Landmaster, and a large number of their standard moves. Luigi, on the other hand, has twelve things in common and everything else completely different. Whereas you can point out a large number of similarities between Fox/Falco, Falcon/Ganon, and Link/Toon Link, Mario/Luigi have ''twelve''. Yes, they were full clones in Smash Bros. (although I could debate that, it's close enough). They were semi-clones in Melee with Green Missile being basically the only unique move. Luigi was not barely a clone in Brawl. He was barely a clone in Melee, which is what made him a semi-clone. In Brawl, the moves he shared with Mario gained a number of new physics, his down special became unique (even if Mario originated it, he doesn't have it now, and that makes it Luigi's move, not Mario's), his Final Smash, most of his grabs, most of his standards, etc., which made him only a semi-clone in Brawl, but barely. I think physics should count more to clone-ness than anything else. Mario and Luigi's physics are not the same. Mario and Dr. Mario's are (for the most part). And if specials are what are used, then Luigi only shares half of his specials while Ganondorf shares three while Toon Link and Falco share all of theirs (with their parents). I'm not very technical in Smash but it's pretty clear that Mario and Luigi don't have enough similarities to be semi-clones anymore. They should have a small mention in the notes, like Falcon/Samus in the original. <small>''---Previously unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]]'' </small> 22:39, 20 October 2014 (EDT) | ::::I'm pretty sure Mario and Luigi don't share taunts, victory poses, or (most of their) animations. And there are a large number of moves that aren't shared besides specials. And the only specials that are in any way the same are fireball and Super Jump Punch, and Super Jump Punch is pretty different. BY definition, a clone is identical to its original. Clearly that's not true in smash, but you can't distance very far from the original. A semi-clone, therefore, has slightly more major differences but still with several being the same- for example, Falco's blaster can't rapid-fire and his reflector is nearly completely different, but they share several similarities in Fox Illusion/Falco Phantasm, Fire Fox/Falco, Landmaster, and a large number of their standard moves. Luigi, on the other hand, has twelve things in common and everything else completely different. Whereas you can point out a large number of similarities between Fox/Falco, Falcon/Ganon, and Link/Toon Link, Mario/Luigi have ''twelve''. Yes, they were full clones in Smash Bros. (although I could debate that, it's close enough). They were semi-clones in Melee with Green Missile being basically the only unique move. Luigi was not barely a clone in Brawl. He was barely a clone in Melee, which is what made him a semi-clone. In Brawl, the moves he shared with Mario gained a number of new physics, his down special became unique (even if Mario originated it, he doesn't have it now, and that makes it Luigi's move, not Mario's), his Final Smash, most of his grabs, most of his standards, etc., which made him only a semi-clone in Brawl, but barely. I think physics should count more to clone-ness than anything else. Mario and Luigi's physics are not the same. Mario and Dr. Mario's are (for the most part). And if specials are what are used, then Luigi only shares half of his specials while Ganondorf shares three while Toon Link and Falco share all of theirs (with their parents). I'm not very technical in Smash but it's pretty clear that Mario and Luigi don't have enough similarities to be semi-clones anymore. They should have a small mention in the notes, like Falcon/Samus in the original. <small>''---Previously unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:Nutta Butta|Nutta.]]'' </small> 22:39, 20 October 2014 (EDT) | ||
:::::''"I'm pretty sure Mario and Luigi don't share taunts, victory poses, or (most of their) animations."'' | |||
:::::Falco doesn't share his taunts with Fox and only shares one of his three victory poses with him, Toon Link/Young Link doesn't share his taunts or victory poses with Link, and Ganondorf doesn't share his taunts or victory poses with Falcon, so this sentence proves nothing. | |||
:::::''"And there are a large number of moves that aren't shared besides specials. And the only specials that are in any way the same are fireball and Super Jump Punch, and Super Jump Punch is pretty different."'' | |||
:::::Those being f-air, d-air (which originated as a cloned move), f-smash, and neutral combo. That's not nearly enough for them to be considered entirely separate, or worth placing (underrepresenting) Luigi in the "notes" section. | |||
:::::''"BY definition, a clone is identical to its original. Clearly that's not true in smash, but you can't distance very far from the original. A semi-clone, therefore, has slightly more major differences but still with several being the same- for example, Falco's blaster can't rapid-fire and his reflector is nearly completely different, but they share several similarities in Fox Illusion/Falco Phantasm, Fire Fox/Falco, Landmaster, and a large number of their standard moves. Luigi, on the other hand, has twelve things in common and everything else completely different. Whereas you can point out a large number of similarities between Fox/Falco, Falcon/Ganon, and Link/Toon Link, Mario/Luigi have ''twelve''."'' | |||
:::::You can't point out that many more similarities between the clone-parent pairs you mentioned, and having '''twenty-five''' (not "twelve") similarities is enough for semi-clone status. Falco's set of standard attacks is more different from Fox's than Luigi's is from Mario's, so he's a terrible example. Additionally, ''all'' of Ganondorf's standard and special moves are ''semi-cloned'' off of Falcon's in appearance and effect in ''Brawl'', while Luigi still retains moves still fully cloned in animation. That said, Ganondorf is also a bad example. | |||
:::::''"Yes, they were full clones in Smash Bros. (although I could debate that, it's close enough). They were semi-clones in Melee with Green Missile being basically the only unique move. Luigi was not barely a clone in Brawl. He was barely a clone in Melee, which is what made him a semi-clone. In Brawl, the moves he shared with Mario gained a number of new physics, his down special became unique (even if Mario originated it, he doesn't have it now, and that makes it Luigi's move, not Mario's), his Final Smash, most of his grabs, most of his standards, etc., which made him only a semi-clone in Brawl, but barely."'' | |||
:::::You can't even argue for classifying Luigi as a unique character, so I don't expect you to challenge Luigi's status as a clone of Mario in ''Smash 64.'' Green Missile was not the "only unique move", Luigi gained a different f-air and f-smash in transition from ''Smash 64'' to ''Melee''. Luigi ''was'' semi-clone in ''Brawl'', with the same running and walking animation, jump animations (all four in ''Brawl'', only three in ''Smash 4'') crouch, back air, neutral air, up air, forward tilt, throws (5 attacks total, including the pummel), up smash, floor attacks (3; after tripping, from a faceplant, and from falling on his back), ledge attack(s) (2 in Brawl, 1 in Smash 4), and a semi-cloned down smash, up special, and neutral special (that's twenty-five similarities in ''Brawl'', twenty-three in ''Smash 4''). All of that is enough to classify him as a semi-clone, regardless of the "new physics". His moves gained "new physics" in ''Melee'', and Ganondorf's semi-cloned moves all have "different physics," as do Toon Link's in comparison to Link's and Falco's in comparison to Fox's. "New" or "different" physics don't make a move or moveset any less [semi-]cloned, they just keep the character in question from being a simple palette swap. Also, a move that had its origins as a cloned move does not necessarily "belong" to the character that keeps it. | |||
:::::''"I think physics should count more to clone-ness than anything else. Mario and Luigi's physics are not the same. Mario and Dr. Mario's are (for the most part). And if specials are what are used, then Luigi only shares half of his specials while Ganondorf shares three while Toon Link and Falco share all of theirs (with their parents). I'm not very technical in Smash but it's pretty clear that Mario and Luigi don't have enough similarities to be semi-clones anymore. They should have a small mention in the notes, like Falcon/Samus in the original."'' | |||
:::::Mario and Luigi's physics '''''have never been the same.''''' '''Not even full on clones have the ''exact same'' physics.''' That said, Dr. Mario's physics for his moves aren't the same "for the most part." Dr. Mario doesn't even share his jumping height and falling speed with Mario anymore, but does that relinquish him of his clone status? Not at all. Did Falco jumping higher and running slower than Fox in ''Melee'' make him "barely a clone"? Luigi sharing half of his specials or even one still would qualify him as a semi-clone, and you'd still need to consider their standard movesets in determining their status as unique/cloned characters. <font face="X-Files">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:#0000a5">Ninjakoopa</span>]]</font> 00:32, 21 October 2014 (EDT) | |||