User talk:Miles of SmashWiki/Ordering

Since you effectively asked for comments, here's mine.

This is altogether not a bad system. All of the fighters and universes are organized in a methodical pattern that tries to emulate the in-game ones as closely as possible without being game-specific. However, it leads to some things I disagree with, the most important of which are:

1. It organizes the fighters as opposed to the characters, which in my opinion is the inferior option.
2. The SSB4 stage-only universes should be intermixed, not separate.
3. The placement of the Wario universe makes sense in the system, but is otherwise hard to rationalize being away from the Mario group.

Toomai Glittershine The Multifaceted 12:29, 12 February 2015 (EST)

The big issue with the "fighter" vs. "character" systems is that it feels very weird to me to break up the chronology of Smash introduction. In my mind, Lucina has no business coming before Ike who debuted in Smash earlier. Although I'm not quite sure where you're coming from on that subject given that it seems like you treat Roy and Lucina as "fighters" by sorting them next to Marth, so maybe I'm missing something in your thought process.

The stage universes aren't a huge deal, but the ordering of those isn't particularly crucial either way since the lists involving both SSB4 sets will rarely be mixed.

I thought you might disagree with Wario's placement. The main reason for that in my mind was the fact that Wario's representation in Smash is almost entirely WarioWare, which is much more separate from Mario than, say, Wario Land. I would also find it jarring to interrupt the chronology listing by putting a Brawl-debut universe in with 64-debut universes. The only one I moved was Yoshi, and the reason for that was that it seems to have been more closely attached to Mario than DK or Wario, to the point where Yoshi appears between Mario characters on either side on SSB4's CSS. Miles (talk) 14:33, 12 February 2015 (EST)

Honestly, here's what I would do to mix the two ways of ordering: keep the layout, but have the different head sprites in each section, like so:

Series

That way, it could still have the layout you want, Miles, while incorporating the character organization Toomai wants (in a sense). Aidan the Aura Master 14:51, 12 February 2015 (EST)

...I think you misunderstood something. That's how I would list them by game, yeah. I intended for my character list to be read left-to-right, row-by-row, with relevant characters included as appropriate. I sorted by game of debut to illustrate where my ordering system came from, rather than to say "there's no Brawl Mario characters". if that makes sense. Miles (talk) 15:23, 12 February 2015 (EST)

Here's my confusion, though: with the way you have it set up, it implies that, still using the Mario universe as an example, the Doc is in Brawl. Granted, most people would know that off hand, but to me, that's just what I potentially see being read. Aidan the Aura Master 16:51, 12 February 2015 (EST)

I think you may be misreading the chart. All it's there to do is indicate the order of the characters, and Dr. Mario by my ordering scheme would come after Bowser but before Rosalina. The row is intended to be read left-to-right as an ordering system based on debut, not as a "so-and-so appears in this game". Miles (talk) 17:00, 12 February 2015 (EST)

Wario's Smash Bros. presence was always a bad egg in more ways than one, and I find no real fault with your rationale for him.

Lucina was always a problem, as can be seen by the early discussion on my order's page. Currently she's next to Marth due to being a descendant (character-based); being a clone (fighter-based) is an additional point, not a decider.

"Chronology of Smash introduction" is frankly an unimportant detail to me; there's a reason it's way down at #7 in my order's list of axioms. I respect the opposite opinion, but it's a factor I just don't really care about. Toomai Glittershine The Breegull 18:05, 12 February 2015 (EST)

It's tough for me to know what do from here, since that's the primary criterion I used to sort these lists. What is a good course of action going forward? Maybe some kind of this-or-that proposition? Miles (talk) 18:09, 12 February 2015 (EST)

Personally, I highly prefer this new ordering system to the current one. The current system seems rather random, and this is much more streamlined and orderly. ChuckNorris  18:53, 12 February 2015 (EST)

I mean, I admit to being biased (having used my order for the better part of ten years), but this seems like nothing more than change-for-the-sake-of-change to me. Both orders have their ups and downs and I don't really see the benefit in converting wiki pages from one to the other. Toomai Glittershine The Quintonic 22:21, 12 February 2015 (EST)

I guess what I'm getting at is the idea of "is one of these clearer or more useful for people besides the admins designing the scheme?" Miles (talk) 00:02, 13 February 2015 (EST)

Changing the ordering

I know this hasn't been active in 6 years, but I thought I would throw my hat into the ring. I agree with Miles with having every series and fighter be organized by their Smash debut, but I think they should be organized by playable reveals, regardless of their availability. For example, I think that Lucina should be placed before Robin due to her splash card being shown first in their reveals. Wii Fit could also be placed before Punch-Out!! since the Wii Fit Trainer was revealed to be playable before Little Mac. I know Little Mac was an Assist Trophy in Brawl, but the game doesn't even count it as an actual universe since Punch-Out!! didn't have a series symbol in Brawl. Yoshi could be placed in between Metroid and Kirby like in the games, unless placing him with the Mario series looks nicer (i.e. In a character table to prevent a character from a series with multiple veterans getting cut off from the rest). F-Zero and EarthBound are a sticky situation as Smash consistently places F-Zero before EarthBound, but Ultimate's fighter numbers place Ness before Captain Falcon. If I would have to choose, I would keep F-Zero before EarthBound as even Ultimate's stage selection screen and sound test still order it like this. Other than that, I feel the fighters should be ordered by their fighter numbers (minus Ness, Captain Falcon, and Echo Fighters) as they pertain to their playable debuts in Smash. Yes, even having Sheik placed before Zelda as Zelda was the only starter character in Melee who wasn't revealed to be playable at E3 2001. Diddy Kongstar (talk) 01:04, April 13, 2021 (EDT)

I 100% agree that Lucina should be before Robin (mostly because even Lucina's SSB4 trophy and Mario Maker costume are listed before Robin's, as well as her being the only first-party unlockable to be revealed before launch before unlockable characters stopped being kept a secret) and Wii Fit before Little Mac (since the time frame between their reveals was months, not minutes), and do think Miles is being far too adamant about keeping the ordering his way to the point where both you and him start edit warring, especially considering Miles has been making similar changes like this for years according to the page history, but I disagree with the rest of your proposed changes. Despite Ultimate listing Ness before Captain Falcon, the stage and music selections in evey game, including in Ultimate, lists F-Zero before Earthbound. Although Yoshi is counted as its own series in Smash, the games literally feature the same characters, so they're not really different enough to be so spread out on the wiki tables. Sheik was revealed before Zelda, but Melee and Brawl consider Zelda the default despite her later reveal, so logically the default should be listed first, even if she was technically revealed later. Mewtwo was developed before Pichu both in Pokemon and in Smash due to Pichu being a clone, and putting Young Link after Ganondorf lets Young Link be next to Toon Link. It's unconstructive that the two of you edit warred, and if either of you wants to change it, it would be beneficial to discuss it with either a third party (which I have already given my opinion for a compromise), each other, or both. 72.219.72.215 20:03, April 13, 2021 (EDT)

I agreed with having F-Zero being listed before EarthBound for the reasons you gave. Having Yoshi in between Metroid and Kirby is to preserve the series order that each game had them in. Smash 4’s character selection screen was the only time Yoshi has been placed within the Mario series fighters (between Bowser and Rosalina). While Mewtwo has been developed before Pichu, it requires a bit of Smash knowledge for people to know that. Keeping it similar to the fighter numbers makes it easier for the reader to understand when each fighter was added to the series as Ultimate already provided us the order of when each fighter was revealed (barring Echo Fighters of course). It’s more for the sake of the reader, especially when several other pages use a similar ordering system to the fighter numbers. Diddy Kongstar (talk) 21:45, April 13, 2021 (EDT)

Any system necessarily makes certain compromises and has its own subjective conclusions about which things to prioritize, especially since I've aimed to make a system that works equally across all Smash games, not just the newest one. I've tried to lay out my decision-making process to be as clear and straightforward as possible and have tried to stick to one listing order to keep things consistent. I mainly have tried not to "put my foot down" or be otherwise in-your-face if others disagreed, but certain decisions (such as putting Dedede before Meta Knight) make me feel like I need to step in because they are unambiguously not how Smash has basically ever done this - and thus, it is pretty clearly not how we should do things, regardless of my own personal preferences. Miles (talk) 12:49, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

With Dedede before Meta Knight, I thought you were going for more of a character debut order within their games for characters who debuted in the same Smash game (i.e. Zelda before Sheik, Robin before Lucina, and Punch-Out!! before Wii Fit). Plus, there was Smash 4's character select screen which had King Dedede placed before Meta Knight, which is what I thought you were going for with the original order. Ordering by development is difficult to do as well as we either don't know when each fighter was added or it contradicts reveal or in-game orders, like how Bowser is placed before Peach in the instance slots, or how Wario is placed before Meta Knight within the instance slots. Reveals are a more common way of knowing when each fighter becomes playable, as there are times where characters make a major appearance somewhere despite not being playable, like how characters like Ridley and Wolf appear in Melee's opening (and the opening was very likely made before Ganondorf was even added to the game). With an official ordering system, it prevents confusion with ordering, even if there are contradictions in previous games. Diddy Kongstar (talk) 13:30, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

Look, the core point I'm trying to make is that, by necessity, every decision here is going to be controversial to somebody and I don't want to have big drawn-out arguments over it. Just, as a request, not a demand, please try to avoid making a giant fuss about the exact order because it is a situation which is basically impossible to resolve in a satisfactory way for everyone involved. That's not an "admin telling you what to do", that's a personal "I don't have the energy to deal with arguing about this". Miles (talk) 13:40, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

I agree with Miles, I don't think this is worth arguing. At the end of the day, it gives out the exact same information, unlike other minor changes I've seen, and although I disagree with Miles' ordering, it is grounded in some logic (even the boxing ring stage was revealed before Wii Fit). 72.219.72.215 14:49, April 14, 2021 (EDT)

Hey

Why did you put Punch-Out before Animal Crossing when Little Mac was announced after Villager? Don’t give me no Assist Trophy excuse. 174.55.24.64 19:09, 15 February 2019 (EST)

• • Why isn’t Wario with the Mario characters as well? 174.55.24.64 23:37, September 5, 2020 (EDT)

I am not Miles but Wario is in his own universe, the Wario universe. His wario-man final smashes all originate from wario universe. S3AHAWK (talk) 23:40, September 5, 2020 (EDT)

To answer your question, Miles said this: "While Wario is sometimes moved near Mario elements, his series is more frequently grouped with the other Brawl newcomer series.".

Also, to IP, please indent your comment with two colons (::) rather than two asterisks (**). SuperSmashTurtles of the Turtle Tribe 23:47, September 5, 2020 (EDT)