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| ==Change default symbol from Special Stages to Other: Part 2==
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| It's obvious at this point that no one's going to change anything and this debate'll go onto 1,000kB or so. I propose a compromise: The special stages symbol stays, but we can use the ellipse for all ''Ultimate''-related content. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 21:35, 2 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::The special stages symbol should be exclusive to Melee's Battlefield. Isn't that common sense? If we don't have a symbol to put there, then don't put a symbol there. I stand by my argument. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:21, 2 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::Just take the compromise. Both sides are clearly too stubborn to listen to anything else. A compromise is the only thing that’ll do for now. Besides, the only things that are going to stay with a shattered disk are the Rareware items. Nearly everything is present in Ultimate, remember that. Rven the missing assist trophies are mii costumes or spirits. This compromise is the first time somebody has given a proposal without their head stuck their own ego. I support the compromise at this point, considering both Sugarcookie and Serpent King (who are on opposite sides of this issue) agree on it. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 23:43, 2 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::Well, at least the ellipsis should still cover most stuff, and that's something I like about the compromise. But I still fail to see why a few other pages would need an unfitting symbol that's been used once. You can call me stubborn, but I think a better compromise would be while we use the ellipsis for Ultimate stuff, the other stuff pre-Ultimate that don't belong to any repped series should not use a symbol. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 00:52, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::Since we didn't (and according to some, still don't) have an official "others" logo before ''Ultimate'', the shattered disc should stay mainly because we don't have any other symbol to represent it with. We could use the ellipse symbol from Ultimate, however since no one can come to an agreement on the status of the ellipse symbol for ''all'' of the "others", and since we have somewhat of an official symbol in Ultimate, the ellipse should be used solely for all Ultimate pages, hence the compromise. I'm pretty sure I'm reiterating what I had said before, but we need a compromise for this or else we won't have a final solution. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 19:47, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| Like I said, I’ve seen this happen on other wikis were the discussions seem to deliberately die off despite having reached a supposed consensus. The argument that “the ellipsis doesn’t make sense as a symbol”, doesn’t make sense in of itself. (For the reasons others have stated such as WW, MM, and MG) As I saw someone touch upon before, if the SmashWiki ''really'' is “consensus”, why have so many arguments been reached on this wiki been by a Support vs Oppose conclusion? Is that not a voting system? Some just say one, while some (most) give reasons for their answer. Also, if we do end up using both with only the ellipses for Ultimate related content, that means EVERYTHING in '''Ultimate''', right? Only series that only appeared before, and not in, Ultimate, in any capacity, use Melee’s battlefield symbol? (I’ve seen stronger arguments, and even stronger counter arguments, from the users that support the change than from the users that are opposed to it) [[Special:Contributions/216.53.157.120|216.53.157.120]] 01:02, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| Honestly, if the symbol makes you think "click here to open a menu”, I think that’s more reason to change it. I feel clicking on the symbols should take you to the corresponding symbol on the list of symbols. It would then explain what the symbol is (potentially) and what it’s from or used for. Even if it would only be applied to the ellipsis. [[Special:Contributions/216.53.157.120|216.53.157.120]] 01:11, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| Also, can’t we currently use the ellipsis until we get more convincing arguments against it instead of waiting to change it until we get more just as convincing arguments supporting it? (I’m not trying to call anyone out from the opposers or the supporters. The supporters I feel have the more convincing arguments) [[Special:Contributions/216.53.157.120|216.53.157.120]] 01:14, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| :We could just manually change every shattered disk into an ellipsis if you want. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 02:04, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Why do it manually if editing my [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Template:Symbol&action=edit&oldid=1173672 revision] would make it a lot quicker? I mean, it would if Toomai hadn't protected the template from an edit war. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 14:32, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::Doing it manually will just have everything reverted, since we still don't have a consensus. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 19:47, 3 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::More people agree that the ellipsis is a better symbol than the Special Stages symbol. So what do we consider a consensus? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 22:11, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| The vast majority of things on this wiki are indeed determined by consensus. But consider this specific case. The proponents of the "change the use-everywhere default to the three-dots symbol" are mostly newer users (joined 2017-2018) and IPs, and their main arguments are "[[SW:OFFICIAL|it's official]]" and "I personally think it's better". The proponents of "do not change the use-everywhere default from the special stages symbol" are all staff members (most of long tenure) whose arguments include "it's not self-consistent" and "it's negatively unusual". And if two sides of an argument are so starkly divided between "newer users" and "staff", I find it difficult to believe that acting strictly on "consensus" is a good idea.
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| So no, the use-everywhere default is not being changed. Go ahead and use the three-dots symbol on SSBU's spirit and music pages, but it's not being used where the game doesn't use it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Frivolous 22:55, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| :I understand where you’re coming from, but the problem is rhat he actual spirits use the ellipsis. It causes nothing but confusion if we have 2 “other” symbols. Additionally, one of those IP’s was me, so you can consider that arguement a little bit more balanced in your favor. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 02:10, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| :One thing to understand is that we really object is use specialstage symbol than support use ellipsis. Old users are used to it and know what it stands, but new users think this symbol is incomprehensible, so they are against using it. That's more telling that the symbol is terrible, just that you're used to it.--[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 01:58, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| :So we can make a different argument: Should use specialstage symbol to represent the minor universe? If the answer is no, what should we use to represent the minor universe? --[[User:Capstalker|Capstalker]] ([[User talk:Capstalker|talk]]) 02:06, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::New users being confused is going to happen no matter what we do. "Why is this symbol being used here?" "What does this symbol mean?" "Where does this symbol come from?" "Why does this page have no symbol at all?" There is no solution that removes all confusion, so things will stay as they are. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Incomperable 16:48, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::I understand your point, but I’d argue that the ellipsis makes people realize that it’s supposed to represent minor universes more thoroughly than the shattered disk. The shattered disk is merely a symbol that represents one stage original to smash. The ellipsis actually psychologically is supposed to be an etcetera.[[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 16:54, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::We've had that argument. It's over now. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spark 16:55, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| Forgive me if I missed a paragraph or two about this, but when did the argument end (reach consensuses)?
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| I also have a few questions as well.
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| #User Creation Date: What does it matter when a User's account was created? That does not seem like it should be a defining factor. Yes, it is easier to
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| #Staff VS. Others: I understand an argument holds more weight if it's done by users and not IPs, but wouldn't it kind of defeat the point of the talk page by saying that it's hard to find consensus between ''"newer users" and "staff"''? There is no rule stating it can't be done. I've seen agreements on this Wiki reach a consensus with a combination of Staff, Older Users, Newer Users, and IPs. (Unless those consensuses would now be considered invalid)
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| #Confused Users: The only way to know for sure if "new Users" would be confused and question the symbol change is if we were to change it in the first place, no?
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| Again, I apologize if I happened to have missed the "closing/defining argument(s)" for this. [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 19:03, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| When did the argument end? When I said it did. It stopped being productive a long time ago and several admins are in agreement that it wasn't going anywhere. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Celeritous 06:51, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Okay then. I did not know the Adimins had agreed upon that. Sorry [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 14:54, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::So only the characters who are primary spirits in Ultimate should get the ellipsis while the others keep the Battlefield symbol? Is that the consensus? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 17:39, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::We will continue to use the three-dots symbol in the same places Ultimate does: in spirit and music lists. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 19:54, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::And the characters that have been primary spirits? [[Takamaru]], [[Sukapon]], [[Sablé Prince]], [[Ray MK III]], [[Saki Amamiya]], [[Isaac]], [[Starfy]], [[Chibi-Robo]], [[Barbara the Bat]], [[Dr. Kawashima]], [[Dillon]], [[Shovel Knight]], [[Spring Man]], [[Ribbon Girl]], [[Bomberman]] and [[Akira]]? Would they get the three dot symbol on their profiles? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 21:48, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::If we only do those, it gets confusing. Use either one symbol or the other. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 04:22, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::Well, those characters did use the ellipsis in-game and since we use old symbols for games before the redesign, clearly we prioritize in-game usage. So at least those characters would have to use the ellipsis. If it has to be one or the other, it should be the ellipsis. But it seems like the men in charge has gotten fond of Battlefield's symbol and really don't want to change it for pre-Ultimate stuff. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 16:20, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::A major part of the "don't change the default" decision was based on the assumption that users would not work around it as they please. All those characters only have symbols on their pages as part of being Assist Trophies, and as ATs they have no ingame symbol. Therefore, they will not be changed to the three-dots symbol, because those uses are not "in spirit and music lists". [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Celeritous 20:24, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::Addendum: As much as this is the decision, I'm not ''entirely'' happy with it because it is indeed somewhat unintuitive. I am currently thinking of a better idea that will treat both symbols equally. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Honcho 20:51, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::That is a but confusing. After all, the music and spirits are associated eith the mii costumes and assist trophies’ music. For example, Arcade Bunny’s music uses an ellipsis, so by extension, so should the assist trophy. Additionally, the spirits themselves use the ellipsis ingame. For example, Dr. Kawashima is a primary spirit who uses the ellipsis ingame. If we shouldn’t use the ellipsis so liberally, at he very least universes who are represented with it by extension of being either a primary spirit, having music represented wih an ellipsis, or being related in some form to one of the former two, they should at least use an ellipsis. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 20:57, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::Oh come on! Those characters as primary spirits in World of Light have used the ellipsis and have never used the Special Stages symbol at all. Why do you insist we keep using that one symbol? You know that Aiden has edited this template so that Persona would use the ellipsis? Yep, one of your fellow admins who's been on your side in this debate has given an ellipsis to a universe that doesn't even have music or spirits yet and would soon get it's own symbol anyway, all because no one bothered to revert my edit redirecting the Persona symbol file weeks ago. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:26, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::::You do realize that Toomai wasn’t entirely satisfied with the decision either. Said assist trophies also have spirits labeled with an ellipsis, whoch is why it’s so unintuitive. Please don’t try to moon him. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 13:34, 13 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Then let's use the ellipsis then. If it wasn't Toomai who made the decision then who did? Sure isn't Aiden because he gave Persona the ellipsis. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 15:13, 13 February 2019 (EST)
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| ==Split-Circle and Ellipses==
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| [[File:OtherSymbolCompair.png|thumb|Symbol Examples:[[Lip]] with the '''Split-Circle''' (Right), and with the '''Ellipses''' (Left)]]
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| I feel like a lot of the information might have gotten garbled over about which Symbol is used for non-repetitive series. There are those who wish to keep the '''Split-Circle''' from ''Melee'' 's Battle Field and those who wish to change it to the '''Ellipses''' from ''Ultimate'' 's music section. If we were to disregard "keeping the '''Split-Circle''' as it has always been like that", "change it to the '''Ellipses''' because it is official", and "speaking on behalf of what the Wiki as a whole thinks about it" as invalid arguments, How would we go about our arguments?
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| A "Consensus" is ''a general agreement''. However, for the argument on this Wiki, we need a strong reason for the opinion. While yes, the former two "reasons" I mentioned as supposedly "invalid" are both bases for or against the change, a previous discussion about this seemed to use those reason as their main argument seemingly repeatedly. (I noticed a few [https://thebestschools.org/magazine/15-logical-fallacies-know/ logical fallacies] in the [[Template_talk:Symbol/Archive_1|mix]])
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| Wouldn't an argument now just be personal opinion? Well, yes. But that's why we have discussions in the first place. And a discussion shouldn't just end, unless a ''clear'' consensus were to be reached quickly.
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| Changing or not changing it because one thinks one looks better/worse ''can'' be a valid argument, but only if more substance is added to the opinion. I have my own, but I want to see others' to have a ''better''/''clearer'' consensus among the Users on the Wiki who care about this topic. [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 19:03, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| :I think I can give out the main arguments of both sides when discarding personal opinion or the “it’s official” or “we’ve been using it for a while” arguements. It’s what the ellipsis represents psychologically. Some people (me included) believe that it psychologically represents an etcetera, meaning that it immediately pops out as “oh this represents minor universes”. The other group thinks that it’s going to cause confusion, since it looks like a “read more” sign. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 23:15, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::I understand that. If a main concern, or defining factor, for some is that most, if not ''everyone'', ''will'' be confused, the only way to know is if we change the symbol, if not temporarily. What I would like to know if if the people making such points believe that themselves. That they think others will be confused because they are confused by it (at least at first). If not, it makes me wonder what was reason behind such a claim. This also works the other way that what was the reason for saying that it means etcetera if they did not actually believe that them self.
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| ::Also, it feels like the argument will just go in circles if the same points are repeated differently. You said "it psychologically represents an etcetera" for ''you'' (It does for ''me'' too). Does that compel ''you'' to use the Ellipses, or to keep the Split-Circle? Why and/or why not? [[User:Wolff| Wolff]] ([[User talk:Wolff|talk]]) 01:18, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| No. We're not moving the goalpoints with this. Topic is closed and will stay closed. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Celeritous 06:51, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| :The reason why the topic wasn’t going anywhere was because both sides parroted the same points. “It’s official”, “we’ve been using one for a while”, or “I personally think one looks better”. By removing all of those arguements and counting them as invalid, I think it’s safe to reopen this topic. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 11:16, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::If you can come up with a ''new'' argument, that ''might'' justify more discussion. But I really don't think it would be a good idea to do that right now. Give it at least a month (maybe two) to calm down and roll over. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 19:54, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::I do actually have another argument. In writing, an ellipsis “usually indicates an intentional omission of a word, sentence, or whole section from a text without altering its original meaning.” (Taken directly from the very top of the wikipedia page). While the same page mentions its usage in menus as a “read more” tab, its primary usage is in writing. A user will either recognize that the ellipsis represents either “read more” or “absence of a true series symbol”. In the case of the former, they will click on it once, realize that it isn’t, then never do it again. Even if they do click it once, it takes three seconds to realize that it’s the other usage of an ellipsis. In the case of the latter, its purpose will be clear, and it has done its job.
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| ::Compare this to the shattered disk used for Melee’s Battlefield. It’s only use is in one game for one stage, rather than throughout the english language. It represents nothing, and thus will leave many users confused on what it actually means. While it should take clicking on the page of another minor universe character or item to make a user realize its purpose, doing said action takes much longer than clicking an image, realizing what it really is, then getting out. This is also going to cause confusion over if Melee’s Battlefield is a Smash-original property or part of a minor universe only represented by a stage. While its series is clearly listed on the page, it will then leave the user wondering why a smash-original stage used a symbol associated with minor universes, and believe it to be a mistake. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:07, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::The argument about the ellipsis being an omission has already been pointed out before. And the "read more" thing was one of Toomai's points '''against''' using the ellipsis. I think all the points have been presented. The point about the shattered disc symbol being Melee exclusive is probably our best point. Especially since it makes the admins look like complete hypocrites when they are against the idea of using the ellipsis for pre-Ultimate stuff. Seriously, why can't we just take out the symbol when there's no symbol there? [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 23:19, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::Firstly, stop with the personal attacks. Secondly, I was using Toomai’s argument against him. Thirdly, the point that newer users will be confused if thtere’s a mistake about Melee’s Battlefield not having a smash symbol is a mistake has never been stated before. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 23:40, 11 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Hmm... I guess the part about the confusion about Battlefield having the wrong symbol wasn't exactly brought up. And when we start using the ellipsis for the primary spirits, I'm pretty sure a new user who knows the Special Stages symbol was only used for Battlefield in Melee would want to change a lot more symbols to the ellipsis. Since it's only the admins who want to keep the Special Stages symbol while everybody else who participated, including a rollback wanted the ellipsis, I think we should go by majority. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 01:24, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| '''Enough''' This is not a majority vote, we do not operate under a vote count. The same points supporting the new symbol keep getting brought up over and over, and a decision has been made to keep the old Melee Battlefield symbol. '''Discussion ends here'''. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 06:48, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| :I’m aware that this is not a majority vote. However, I do think that counting the points hat were parroted in the first place is a valid way of reopening discussion. Additionally, I just brought a new point about newer users possibly believeing the melee batllefield symbol to be a mistake on its actual page. I think opening discussion again would work, under the operation that we can’t state that it’s official or looks better. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 10:46, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| == A possible way to treat both the ellipsis and the special stages symbol equally == | | == A possible way to treat both the ellipsis and the special stages symbol equally == |
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