Editing Smasher talk:IntroSpecktive

== Deletion ==

Gonna have to say this but this page has to go, I '''fully support''' this deletion. [[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] 20:50, July 12, 2020 (EDT)

:'''Support''' as well, this article was deleted before and will be deleted again for the exact same reason. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 21:26, July 12, 2020 (EDT)
:'''Support''' Player has no relevance to the competitive scene. Page needs to go. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 00:31, July 15, 2020 (EDT)
:'''Support''': Try creating a smasher article that has actual tournament results. A popular Youtube channel is insufficient warrant a page. [[User:MemeDedede|MemeDedede]] ([[User talk:MemeDedede|talk]]) 09:40, July 16, 2020 (EDT)
:Bump [[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] 00:46, July 22, 2020 (EDT)
::The [[SmashWiki:Notability#Notable_community_members|new notability policy]] seems to completely contradict the arguments made here. He's definitely been "contributing to the growth of the community" through his YouTube channel, and he is certainly a "content creator". I don't get the arguments here given this. '''Heavy oppose'''. --[[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #e68;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 11:02, July 22, 2020 (EDT)
:::I feel as though many people forget that the notability guideline specifically says that notability is defined "''for the purposes of this Wiki, as any article pertaining to the '''competitive''' community of the Super Smash Bros. series''". IntroSpecktive's content creation and contributions to the community have nothing to do with the competitive scene which is what the wiki documents. As per current guidelines the subject in question is not notable. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 15:11, July 22, 2020 (EDT)

:'''Neutral'''. I don't see a reason to not include popular ''Smash'' YouTubers without a competitive presence, but at the same time Smasher pages are for competitive players, not content creators. Also, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole on defining what a "notable" content creator is, especially since the ones with a lot of subscribers such as {{Sm|Alpharad}}, {{Sm|Shofu}}, and {{Sm|Little Z}} have participated in legitimate tournaments and a subscriber threshold isn't really a good idea for notability. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:25, July 22, 2020 (EDT)
:The question that needs to be asked is, has he ever been in a tournament notable by this wiki's standards? Not that I recall, but I may be wrong. If he has, '''Oppose'''. If not, '''Support'''. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 15:54, July 22, 2020 (EDT)
:As per my latest edit summary on the page, bump again. [[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] 15:59, July 25, 2020 (EDT)
:third bump [[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] 22:14, July 31, 2020 (EDT)
::All right, I'm getting tired of this. I apologize if I'm forgetting something, but can we not just delete the page already? Support is nearly unanimous, with no reasonable arguments being made against it. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 00:50, August 1, 2020 (EDT)
:::Doing some quick research, I found Intro has no Smash.gg profile. Intro has a SmashBoards account and, as of August 1, 2020, he hasn't been seen in '''4''' years. So yeah, gonna reconfirm my '''support''' here. [[File:S3AHAWK_Signature_icon_1.png|20px]] [[User:S3AHAWK|<span style="font-family: Arial;color:Blue;">S3AHAWK</span>]] ([[User talk:S3AHAWK|''<span style=" font-family: Comic Sans MS;color: Red;">talk</span>'']])[[File:S3AHAWK_signature_icon_2.png|20px]] 01:10, August 1, 2020 (EDT)
Aren't we supposed to delete this here talk page as well now that the associated mainspace page is gone? Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 22:22, March 29, 2021 (EDT)
:I say not delete yet and think this case should be brought back up, because I want to know since when was it decided that being a big Smash youtuber didn't count as any sort of notability. Plague is right here, and I've noticed the CCD article was deleted, as well as an attempt to create a MagicScrumpy article was deleted, which I find highly disagreeable. We even have a Youtuber category, which exists because youtube stuff is noteworthy. Plus I don't find this distinction with "contribution to the ''competitive'' community" worthwhile; the Smash community is the Smash community, and it's not like these people's fans weren't largely competitive players themselves, or that they didn't contribute by getting more casuals into competitive play. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 00:04, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
::Echoing OT here, it's pretty questionable that between two equally famous Youtubers, one gets to have a page because he got some mediocre placements at a tournament (that probably would not merit him a page otherwise), while the other who does not participate in tournaments does not. With that said, we should be probably more strict with articles on non-competitive people than we are normally, otherwise we are going to be swamped by pages about minor youtubers. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 05:07, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
:::I don't have a problem with a popular YouTuber being included once we've set guidelines. I assume they would be similar to adding a labber or director or something in that if you don't compete competitively you would need to have a strong case for notability. I don't think it would be beneficial for us to have a flood of YouTubers [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 05:51, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
::::Allow me to take a look at where IntroSpecktive might fall under the guidelines of [[SW:NOTABLE]] as they currently stand.

::::SW:NOTABLE's guidelines for content creators refers to a person "ha[ving] contributed high-level content to the Smash community or has contributed significantly in other ways. For example, being involved in a highly regarded tournament-streaming team, discovering and reporting information about the inner workings of Smash including specific characters or mechanics, being a high level commentator, creating and uploading popular tutorial videos, being a highly regarded Smash modder, contributing to the growth of the community, etc."

::::Now, I just so happen to be a big fan of Mr. Colin's content, he's probably one of my favorite ''Smash''-related channels. I would personally love for him to get have an article here, and I've tried to see how that might work out. But his content and the types of people who watch his channel are not going to qualify him - his channel is almost entirely nonsense comedy and skits, as well as the occasional commentary on an aspect of the ''Smash'' community, or videos on stuff completely unrelated to ''Smash''. Almost every single one of his videos with over 1M views is a skit about one part of the ''Smash'' community's take on some other part of the community or another game entirely; his "serious" discussions perform relatively poorly by comparison, and ones that actually show off and discuss in-game mechanics (which are extremely scarce) perform even worse. Big-league players don't talk about him, and heck, he doesn't talk about big-league players unless his jokes call for it. So as far as I'm concerned, IntroSpecktive's content most certainly does not qualify for coverage under the "significant contributions" clause.

::::There is that second clause that provides for creators that "can prove legitimate regional or greater fame within the competitive community otherwise not covered by these guidelines." Now, I don't like these "generalisation" clauses because someone can work through the wording in a way that lets anybody in, but thankfully we've kept to a pretty decent selection of 'Tubers. So what this discussion comes down to, regardless of "significant contributions" (which, again, he doesn't have), is whether he's well-regarded enough within the community, and whether people talk about him. If someone can bring up sufficient evidence of notable people taking notice of him, then I will happily support bringing this page back per my interpretation of SW:NOTABLE. Otherwise, I maintain that '''the "YouTubers" category is strictly for otherwise notable Smashers who also ''just so happen'' to have channels''', and that this page and any similar cases of pure-entertainment content creators with no notable tourney results should be discarded.

::::Hope you got the general idea of my argument through all that rambling. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 08:58, March 30, 2021 (EDT)</br><small>P.S. who is this "Plague" YouTuber? That page may not be needed either.</small>
:::::To answer Sam's question about this "Plague" YouTuber: Are you perhaps responding to Omega Tyrant's quote of "Plague is right here"? Because I'm pretty sure OT is referring to Plague von Karma's comment (By "Plague is right here", they probably meant "I agree with Plague"). The only YouTubers OT mentioned are Crappy Capture Device and Scrumpy. [[File:SmashTurtlesSig1.png|20px]][[User:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: green;">'''SuperSmashTurtles'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:SuperSmashTurtles|<span style="color: lightgreen;">'''Turtle Tribe'''</span>]][[File:SmashTurtlesSig2.png|20px]] 09:50, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
::::::yes, that's exactly what I was asking about, haha Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 09:55, March 30, 2021 (EDT)

:::::"''Big-league players don't talk about him, and heck, he doesn't talk about big-league players unless his jokes call for it. So as far as I'm concerned, IntroSpecktive's content most certainly does not qualify for coverage under the "significant contributions" clause.''"

:::::It doesn't matter how "serious" you think his content is, the fact he provides Smash-based content that is enjoyed by such a massive amount of people, and in turn helps a lot in keeping eyes on Smash, is significant contribution itself. Plus I don't even follow the guy on Twitter and I see him all the time having "serious discussions" and interacting with "big league players", so he is by no means isolated in his own bubble like you make him sound.

:::::"''Now, I don't like these "generalisation" clauses because someone can work through the wording in a way that lets anybody in''"

:::::It exists because there's no fair objective standard that can be set for "notability", so it makes it clear that admins and the community can decide an article stays just because they believe an article's subject is noteworthy enough under some other criteria of "fame".

:::::"''So what this discussion comes down to, regardless of "significant contributions" (which, again, he doesn't have) is whether he's well-regarded enough within the community, and whether people talk about him. If someone can bring up sufficient evidence of notable people taking notice of him, then I will happily support bringing this page back per my interpretation of SW:NOTABLE.''"

:::::As of this writing, the guy has 463K subscribers on youtube and over 100K followers on twitter off the back of near entirely Smash-based content, that's far far '''''far''''' beyond any remotely reasonable standard for fame within the community, and if you want to go through his follower list and mentions on Twitter, I'm sure you'll see ton of "notable people" "taking notice of him" (though "being noticed by notable people" shouldn't be any sort of criteria). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:03, March 30, 2021 (EDT)

My opinion on the subject is still largely unchanged. I feel like we would need to set guidelines in the notability section (eg how many subscribers would be consider notable). Also, I still don't like giving them the "Smasher" namespace since they aren't competitive players, but on the other hand I'm not sure if a "YouTuber" namespace would be ideal either. Finally, a new concern is what characters go into the infoboxes, if any, since there are a few YouTubers without defined mains. Aside from these, I don't mind having YouTuber-only players on the wiki. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 10:34, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
:"''Also, I still don't like giving them the "Smasher" namespace since they aren't competitive players''"

:The Smasher namespace was never for just competitive players, it's for noteworthy people of the Smash community, and the term itself is just shorthand for "Smash fan/player". It's splitting hairs to be worrying about the name of the namespace a person's article is put in, and entirely unnecessary as "Smasher" is encompassing enough for any individual.

:"''Finally, a new concern is what characters go into the infoboxes, if any, since there are a few YouTubers without defined mains.''"

:It has never been entirely necessary to have those entries filled up if nothing fits for them, so if there were youtubes we have articles for that truly have no known main, then we just won't list any in their infobox. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:03, March 30, 2021 (EDT)
Full '''support''' for the re-instatement of this article per Omega Tyrant's excellent points and counter-arguments (fantastic logic and reasoning skills you have, by the way). For my initial position on the topic, I was putting too much emphasis on the professional side of the ''Smash'' community; this is always a mistake. If we do end up bringing this article back, we should definitely look into improving the guidelines for articles on content creators without tournament results. Sincerely, [[User:SamtheBKBoss|Samuel]] the [[User talk:SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #0123A8">'''Banjo-'''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/SamtheBKBoss|<span style="color: #FF1901">'''Kazooie'''</span>]] Boss. [[File:SamtheBKBossSIGN.png|16px]] 16:07, March 30, 2021 (EDT)

I'll be recreating this article as well as the other deleted Smashtuber articles if a good reason isn't brought up within the next 24 hours on why they aren't noteworthy to the Smash community. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:11, April 3, 2021 (EDT)
:I mean as it currently stands, the Smasher namespace has exclusively been used for people within the competitive community, despite what it's original intentions were. As I've stated earlier, [[SW:NOTABLE]] only further confirms this by stating "''for the purposes of this Wiki, as any article pertaining to the '''competitive''' community of the Super Smash Bros. series''". Ultimately I'm neutral on this subject, but if people do choose to move forward with it, we absolutely must have a amendment to SW:NOTABLE detailing guidelines for determining notability within non-competitive content creators. I feel that without this we'd be opening a huge can of worms in terms of who to give an article to. [[User:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:#850FFA; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Señor'''</span> <span style="color:#850FFA;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px green">'''Mexicano'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:SenorMexicano|<span style="color:lightpurple;text-shadow:0px 0px 2px lightgreen">(talk)</span>]]'' 21:59, April 3, 2021 (EDT)
::But it has never been exclusively for people that play competitively, the CrappyCaptureDevice article was made all the way back in 2007 and no one ever made a fuss about it until Serpent King unilaterally deleted it last August, while we have articles for modders and contributors that have never participated in tournaments before. Like I said in my initial post it seems to be some users just made up a rule that youtubers don't count and Serpent King went with it, whether because he mistook that as "consensus" or he was enforcing his own flawed view of "what counts for notability". Plus as I stated prior, saying they don't contribute to the community is just wrong, as they create content that is enjoyed by people whether they're competitive or not, and are responsible for getting people into the competitive scene (hell I've had people before tell me that I got them into competitive Smash through my youtube channel, despite my competitive content being a lesser focus of my channel and my channel's following being a smidgen compared to the Smashtube titans out there like Intro). Additionally the very first sentence in the Notable Community Members section mentions "content creators" among who smasher articles are for and the second point of SW:NOTE says:

::"''Has contributed high-level content to the Smash community or has contributed significantly in other ways. For example, being involved in a highly regarded tournament-streaming team, discovering and reporting information about the inner workings of Smash including specific characters or mechanics, being a high level commentator, creating and uploading popular tutorial videos, being a highly regarded Smash modder, contributing to the growth of the community, etc.''"

::There is no specifying of "competitive only", and the last point of "helping the community grow" is something that Smash-based youtubers and streamers definitely help with. And there's no greater issues with determining notability for Smash-based youtubers than there are for the typical player, in fact it would be even easier as we can outright see the size of their following and the popularity of their videos, instead of having to dig through shoddily-documented results and determining if they were good enough to cross some indeterminate threshold. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:00, April 3, 2021 (EDT)
:::Speaking of that, we have pages for [[My Smash Corner]] and {{Sm|GRsmash}}. There's already a precedent here so I don't see a reason to oppose it anymore. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 00:32, April 4, 2021 (EDT)
::::Yeah we have multiple examples of this precedent being set (and going back as far to the pre-Brawl days as mentioned prior with CCD), so we're not really doing anything new by allowing Intro and other people without a competitive history to have articles, we're just correcting a few shoddy deletions here and a misconception among some users that youtube presence has nothing to do with notability. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:20, April 4, 2021 (EDT)

:Which smashtuber articles will be reinstated besides this one? The only other one I'm familiar with is Etika, but he's more notable for his suicide and the behavior leading up to it rather than his smash videos. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:72.219.72.215|72.219.72.215]] ([[User talk:72.219.72.215|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/72.219.72.215|contribs]]) 02:55, April 4, 2021 (EDT)</small>
::Etika is definitely notable enough here for his Smash content, the most popular thing about him was his Smash reaction videos (with his Mewtwo reaction even getting the attention of Sakurai), and he was majorly mourned within the Smash community when he died. Besides him and Intro, CrappyCaptureDevice and Magic Scrumpy will get their articles recreated, and if anyone here can think of other Smash-based youtubers/streamers with deleted articles, I'll review the case and recreate if they're noteworthy enough. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 05:53, April 4, 2021 (EDT)
:Does Intro actually main [[Plant|Piranha Plant]] outside of the initial #PlantGang memes? I've haven't caught up with his content in a long while, but i thought he mained [[PT|Pokèmon Trainer]]. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:PhantoFantasma|PhantoFantasma]] ([[User talk:PhantoFantasma|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/PhantoFantasma|contribs]]) 19:26, April 21, 2022 (EDT)</small>
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