Editing SmashWiki talk:User pages

Selectively copied and pasted from [http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Guild_Wars_Wiki:User_pages&action=history GWW].  --<span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadow</span>]][[User talk:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4;">crest</span>]]</span> 00:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Looks like I [[User:Smorekingxg456/User Page|Missed this page]]. Oh well. I'll try something else.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:Red">Smore</span><span style="color: Green">King</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:blue">Hap</span><span style="color:silver">py</span> <span style="color:black">Holidays!</span>]]''' 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

== Subpages ==

Can we add something about subpages to this?'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 02:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:That's nice and definite. I could definitely add "something about subpages"... though I don't know that it would do anything. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 02:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
::Specific things, such as what can be allowed on them, what they are, what isn't allowed on them, the proper use of them, etc. <small>iFail.</small>'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 02:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
::I would do it, but I can't make things seem official when I type them, such as te writing that is currently used in this policy.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 02:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
:::What exactly were you thinking? --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 03:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
::::I was just noticing how many users have subpages for random things. Well, [http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Smorekingxg456/User_Page#Sub_Pages here]. It explains some of the things I was thinking.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 03:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

==The comment-removing impasse==
Spurred by recent events, I've looked at this page and discovered something interesting. Many users agree that no one should ever remove non-spam comments from talk pages (even your own), without exception. This is considered an unwritten rule by many. However, both this page and [[SW:NPA]] clearly state that one's user talk page is the exception to the rule.

What does this mean? It means that we have to decide which rule applies and make it the written rule, or even come up with something that's a hybrid of the two. But it cannot stay how it is now - which is a common unwritten rule that cannot coexist with a relatively-more obscure written rule.

In my opinion, we should make a hybrid rule such as this: Users can remove negative comments (such as personal attacks) or irrelevant comments (such as "come brawl me") from their talk page, but related conversations must be kept as intact as possible (such as replacing a PA with "[PA by User]"), and all other talk pages must be kept intact (save for spam removal and the like).

[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 03:31, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
:Yes. Seems fair to me. ☆<span style="font-family:Algerian;">[[User:Solar Dragon|<font color="green">The</font> <font color="red">Solar</font> <font color="blue">Dragon</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:Solar Dragon|<font color="gold">Talk</font>]])</sup></span>☆ 06:39, January 12, 2010 (UTC)

:In general disagreement. Removal of comments from one's own talk page makes it implicitly understood that they've read what they're removing, which is the objective on a talk page; to make them read what is on it. What events are these you speak of? --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 07:59, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
::The events I speak of are when Gargomon251 was removing a PA from his talk page by abridging the comment, while PoD reverted it and eventually archived and protected the page in its original state. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 01:13, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

:Why not keep the wording of the unwritten rule? ''No'' comments should be removed from a talk page, imo, unless they're obvious spam and take up too much room (if it's just "wanna brawl?" then you might as well put a header above it and add a signature). Altering or removing another user's comment should be forbidden - it's not ''your'' talk page, it's a page that other users can use to contact you... Your user page is the only page that is truly ''yours''. Why does no one seem to get this...? '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 09:42, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
::I didn't suggest that we have to make a new rule. I just made the observation that the unwritten rule and the written rule conflict with each other, and that such has to be fixed in some way (followed by my own suggestion). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 01:13, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

::Except a user talk page ''is'' the user's page (it has their name, doesn't it?). Just as I said, their removal of a comment gives us leeway to assume they read said comment and are thus bound by whatever consequences come of such acknowledgment. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 22:36, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
:::Even though the page bears your name it still isn't really your page, it's the community's. Talk pages aren't for you to show off and make ridiculously beautiful or whatever you want to do, they're a means of for the community to contact you, and retaining functionality should be the primary goal here. I don't know about you, but I generally don't dig through hundreds of revisions to find a particular comment, I read the archive(s), and if the comments have been removed and not archived that functionality is no longer there. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 01:30, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
::::Agree, entirely. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 09:14, January 13, 2010 (UTC)

::::Disagree, almost entirely. Talk pages are a means of contacting a person (agreed), and that purpose is served by posting to them (agreed). It isn't, and shouldn't be, up to anyone else but the user whose orange bar shows up when something happens on his talk page, excluding obvious vandalism. This is a knee-jerk, especially given that it is within Gargo's right to remove any PAs directed at him on his own talk page. I stand by the premise that a talkpage bearing my name on it is mine to do with as I wish within wiki reason, regardless of your (plural) wishes. As a final note, archival is not a functionality, it is a courtesy. Diffs are the only exact [reliable] method of ensuring that pages have not been tampered with, which is the point of this, yes? Go diff hunting if you want to make sure you are remembering an archived commentary correctly. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 06:25, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
:::::"it is within Gargo's right to remove any PAs directed at him on his own talk page" - that's what we're discussing, so you can't use it as an axiom on which to base your argument. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 09:14, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
::::::That's fine, as that hardly discredits the argument. In any case, I consider it an inherent right, and so an axiom it is not.<br />Now it may come up that what I'm saying is an argument for something we banned long ago: the type of chit chat back and forth we tried to force onto IRC and through other means. But the primary concerns in that case were that the users clogged up IRC with meaningless (to most people) chit chat... This obviously isn't the same concern. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 22:43, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::All I got out of that post was 1) I am right because I believe I am and 2) there was an irrelevant discussion about talk pages a long time ago. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 23:18, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::Sky, I respect you, as you have been an admin for a long time. However, I agree with Shadowcrest and PoD on this one as it says on the page about PAs that you must ask an admin for permission before removing a PA from your talk page, which Gargo didn't do. [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 00:41, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

::::::::Yes, that's what we're talking about right now 98... whether that should change or not.<br />Cool story, SC. Number 2 is exactly correct, while number 1 should really read "I am right because it is wrong to force someone to look at something they don't want to on a page which is identified as being theirs." Nice strawman though.<br />So, someone has yet to explain why it's alright for us to '''force''' people to look at something that they may find disagreeable to them, as it's on a page they may be checking often, ''and'' has their name on it. Comeon, you three. One of you should be able to come up with something. :/ --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:04, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::In no way are we forcing anything. There's such thing as "Archiving". [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 01:21, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
::::::::::Which doesn't relieve the problem of them having something on one of their pages... Besides, some don't like archiving more often than not. As I said earlier, "archiving" shouldn't be forced on people. If you want to read their archives, then go diff hunting (if you don't trust their archives to have what you think they should). If they want to read their archives, then we run into the same problem. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:33, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
:::::::::::I fail to see the issue with "forcing" (quotes because it's something 99.9% of editors do anyway) editors to do something (on their own time, even) that causes no detriment to anyone and is beneficial to everyone. You can continue to bitch and moan about being oppressed and whatever, but if you'd present an actual reason not to archive other than "I dun wanna QQ" I'd greatly appreciate it. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 02:07, January 14, 2010 (UTC)

:outdent re Shadow: If you'd present an actual reason to archive other than "oh, I dun wanna QQ", I'd greatly appreciate it.<br />So just because everyone does it means we should force those who don't? That sounds a little dystopian to me&mdash;what about you? The person it causes detriment to is the user who doesn't want to archive. Duh. The only person it's beneficial to is the person who doesn't want to go through the work of checking the diffs. Right now, you're [[SW:AGF|assuming bad faith]] on the part of people who don't want to conform to your wiki-view. Sorry, but that's not cool. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 02:24, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
::Uh.. the entire reason for this change is to ''improve functionality'' of archives so that they are an accurate record of edits being made. 
::It's not dystopian because there's a good reason for people to archive, I'm not just spouting random bullshit for the luzl. (Read the line in the paragraph above this one.) Sure, it'd be great for me to just walk around the wiki telling dumb people that they're stupid as fuck and should just leave, for example, but hey look- there were rules implemented against that. For a good reason. hmmm.
::It causes no detriment to anyone, that's a load of crap. Literally, your sole "reason" boils down to nothing more than "I want a pony hurf durf." The only comments that have a legit reason to be removed are 1) vandalism and 2) posting of personal info. Other than that it's just a bunch of "omg so-and-so's mom called me fat I think I'm going to go cry unless the edit is deleted right now!!1" which is clearly pointless. If things like simple PAs or whatever bother you to the point where actually having a comment in an archive that nobody is forcing you to read interferes with your ability to function, seek help and/or quit the internet immediately. However, on the other side, '''''every single person who wants to find an old quote from someone's page''''' will benefit from having archives that have not been tampered with and are easily accessable, saving time and energy that could be put to a better use (ie actually improving the wiki) than looking through over 9000 diffs which lack utility.
::Anyway I'm going to assume you're just pulling at straws for an actual reason now because your last post was mostly devoid of content and full of a billion irrelevant/baseless comments (I missed where I assumed malicious intent?).  <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 02:44, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
:::Shadowcrest, I doubt anyone would like to have their talk page flooded with PAs. Most PAs tend to be disruptive enough that they got their own [[SW:NPA|policy]], even though they're pointless. This is the reason why some wanted them to be removed, because the PAs are useless. The idea here was to create a hybrid rule for removing content on user talk pages, which was meant to be "removal of comments just for PAs and useless content such as 'wanna brawl?'" (Read Toomai's first post above.) I don't see why you'd want to "find old quotes" from this sort of stuff, and I don't think anyone else would actually care to.  And to be honest, the reason you aren't [[SW:AGF|assuming good faith]] is because you want everyone to agree to your point of view, and if they don't, they get treated like vandals. That's exactly what SW:AGF says not to assume. Moreover, this isn't even about the topic we're supposed to be discussing here; this was about suggestions for removal of talk page comments, not the rather pointless discussion above. So are we going to come to a consensus about it? '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 05:17, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
::::Your first statement is fallacious. Yeah, I doubt anyone would really like it, but it is not only unrealistic for someone react so badly after the event has passed but it is also unrealistic for an actual flood of personal attacks to occur in such frequency that it could be considered a "flood". Then, read your next sentence. "'''''even though they're pointless.'''''" If you feel that personal attacks are pointless, why are you QQing up a storm about being able to remove them? Clearly there is no reason for someone to feel so excessively offended by a "pointless" comment, am I right? However, even though you may feel they're useless, having a(n easily accessible) record of them (and all comments) is not useless- don't confuse the two. As for why one would need to look up such a quote... seriously? What about for block rationales, or for RfA comments, or <etc etc etc>? Skipping past your ridiculous accusation (detailed below), .... this is related. As an alternative to allowing removing comments, which I and others disagree with, I am proposing that these PAs/useless comments like "wanna brawl" etc be immediately archived. That's fully on topic, please stop drastically missing the point. 
::::Um... "treating people who don't agree with me like vandals" is absolutely false. Like... straight up bull. If I had blocked you, Toomai and Sky and unilaterally implemented my own version of this proposal, then you'd have a case. Not now. So drop the 100% untrue accusations and please focus on the content and not the contributor- if you think my conduct has been inappropriate in some way, please bring it up [[User talk:Shadowcrest|here]] and stop making comments like "Hey, I like Toomai's proposal, and by the way fuck you Shadowcrest" which are not only fallacious but also serve to divert the discussion. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:07, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
::::: Er…You clearly didn't re-read Toomai's post as I said, or else you would have realized that he intended to have the PA replaced by "[PA by User]." PAs are pointless in that they're worthless troll posts, which is pointless in terms of arguing in a discussion, but certainly not pointless in their attempts to attack people. Don't confuse the two. That also debunks your next statement about quotes unless you feel that I'm arguing that all content on a talk page is removable, which I'm not (Again, re-read Toomai's first post). As for the second part, I was using hyperbole. To put it in more understandable terms, you're assuming that those people who actually don't agree with your view on PAs and so-forth have malicious intents. As for your last sentence, what's the point in saying that? I'm not saying anything of that sort in any way, nor did I intend to. You're also being a hypocrite with that statement. "Hey, I like Toomai's proposal, and by the way fuck you Shadowcrest" seems to divert the discussion, which I tried not to. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 04:00, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
::::::Er... you clearly don't get that there is essentially no difference between removing and editing comments, both of which are censorship. (You youself used the words interchangably 2 posts up, so don't give me some trash about them being different.) Whether it says "[PA by user]" or just doesn't exist, the comment is no longer accessible except through diff links, which is the entire point of this archival discussion. Not a single one of your comments has actually countered the fact that easily accessible archives are more functional and beneficial to the wiki than any presented alternative, instead making a ton of appeals to emotion and other irrelevant statements (assuming they really had any content at all- your last post contained maybe 3 relevant statements, none of which were true). Please present an actual reason against archives that aren't 100% based on feelings before I start copy+pasting my points because you've done nothing to refute them despite your attempts ad nauseam. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:48, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

:As for the topic at hand: Agreed. I don't think the pointless comments are at all helpful or needed, and I've had enough of having to read through silly yet disruptive PAs on talk pages. I think we need to get rid of them.  '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 05:17, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
::How is an archived PA disruptive, may I ask? There seem to be a lot of unsupported assertions in this section. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 16:48, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
:::It's a relative nuisance to most users who get PAd. If they want to go after a quote in an archive, they see the PA, which annoys them. Also, most of those "assertions" have been proved; could you point out others in this section? '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 19:24, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
::::Frankly, the only time it is reasonable for someone to be seriously offended by personal attacks is if they're either really cruel or if you get caught up in the heat of the moment. For all but the most extreme personal attacks, however, it is ridiculous to be offended by reading them in an archive. Grow a thicker skin- you're on the internet. It is best to avoid posting when emotionally affected in any case. Furthermore, the archive serves as a more-accessible track record for users who personally attack others, allowing easier access to all available evidence and things, and if a user is so traumatized by a personal attack that they want it removed then this should serve to pacify them in any case. Still not seeing a viable reason to allow removing comments. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:07, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
:::::Ok, fine. I'll agree with those first statements. However, see my first few statements on PAs in my post above. Using "[PA by User]" keeps that track record, so it serves to keep it without having to archive it, and it also minimizes the space. It's a lot more effective than those other two options, which is why I think it's best to use it. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 04:00, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
::::::Censored comments != the real comments and they never will be regardless of any other random unrelated "benefits" (like space- it's an archive, who really cares how big it is, I don't think a sentence or even a paragraph is going to break anything) you may bring up. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:23, January 15, 2010 (UTC)

Seeing as there's a bit of disagreement here, how about this proposal? Users are not allowed to remove abusive/irrelevant comments, but they can format them to make them hard to read or invisible. Such as <s>strikethrough</s> (although that one already has a function somewhat), <<font color="white">whiteout</font>> (can be read by highlighting), etc. The comments are still fully there (can be referenced), but hidden somewhat. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 22:38, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
:I still do not see how that is a better alternative than just archiving the comment (assuming there is no discussion about the comment, but if there's ongoing discussion then the comment shouldn't be stricken/altered/etc anyway). <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 22:51, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
::What Shadowcrest said, tbh... Why would one want to do anything to other users' comments aside from correcting spelling, punctuation and spacing (unless that comment is highly disruptive spam, in which case you should remove it)? What's the point in <s>striking</s>, <!-- "removing" --> or <font color="white">whiteouting</font> comments? They're still there, and they're still as "disruptive" as ever, just marginally harder to read... On the other hand, if one archives a PA, the only way one could read it would be if one were to go to the archive, in which case one would be bringing the resulting trauma upon oneself. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 23:20, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
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-{{Archive box|2}}
+Selectively copied and pasted from [http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Guild_Wars_Wiki:User_pages&action=history GWW].  --<span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadow</span>]][[User talk:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4;">crest</span>]]</span> 00:36, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
+Looks like I [[User:Smorekingxg456/User Page|Missed this page]]. Oh well. I'll try something else.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:Red">Smore</span><span style="color: Green">King</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:blue">Hap</span><span style="color:silver">py</span> <span style="color:black">Holidays!</span>]]''' 21:39, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
-== BUMP ==
-Kinda an important policy which had near unanimous support at the end. Shouldn't this be passed? [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 21:37, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
-:Support was far from unanimous, and this policy isn't important anymore as there haven't been user page problems. In short: no. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 22:45, 21 July 2011 (EDT)
-::Fair enough, but we do need some policies covering user pages? Note that this also covers user talk pages, and whether or not comments can be removed will pretty much always come up, and it is better to have a written rule than an unwritten rule. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 13:03, 22 July 2011 (EDT)
-:::True. I stick to my earlier stance that if you are going to edit another user's userpage beyond a grammar or coding fix, you should at least give them a talk page message if not have permission before you do it. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 15:19, 22 July 2011 (EDT)
-::::Not very many people opposed, and it was never really settled, so that is why I wish to reopen it. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 17:42, 22 July 2011 (EDT)
-:::::Bump again. This didn't have very many opposes. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 13:48, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
-::::::I don't see any supports anywhere. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 13:52, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
-:::::::True, but that is because we never actually got the voting round. The policy was reformed to fit suggestions. We also need a user/user talk page policy, something this wiki lacks. Toomai's proposal here seems like a good policy that includes many of the unwritten rules that remain unopposed. As such, I '''support''' this policy. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 13:58, 30 July 2011 (EDT)
-== We have to stop being apathetic ==
-I noticed users running into userpage problems a lot lately. And as such, we need a userpage policy. I '''strongly support''' making this an official SmashWiki policy immediately. It covers how we handle userpages now, and I see no problems with it. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:38, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Support''' <font face="Forte">[[User:BlindColours|<font color="#FFA500">Blin</font>]][[User talk:BlindColours|<font color="#00FFFF">dcol</font>]][[Special:Contributions/BlindColours|<font color="#00FF00">ours</font>]]</font> ''tappity Tappity TAPPITY'' 14:41, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''yep''' [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:50, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Why not?''' I wonder why there never was a policiy like this before (if there really wasn't :P)...--[[File:FalcoHeadSSBB.png|19px]] '''''[[User:PSIWolf|<font color=#00006E>P</font><font color=#0000A5>S</font><font color=#0000DC>I</font><font color=#0000FF>W</font><font color=#0037FF>o</font><font color=#006EFF>lf</font>]]''''' ([[User talk:PSIWolf|<font color=#FF0000>T</font>]] • [[Special:Contributions/PSIWolf|<font color=#FF0000>C</font>]] • [[Special:Editcount/PSIWolf|<font color=#FF0000>E</font>]]) 14:51, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Mhm'''-[[User:Ivy73|<span style="color:forestgreen">Ivy</span>]][[User talk:Ivy73|<span style="color:blue">73</span>]][[File:002MS.png]] 15:32, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Strongest Oppose I can possibly muster''': For one reason. It recommends anyone editing another user's page without prior permission to leave a message on the respective user's talk page. It should '''require''' it. '''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=red>Ƌ<font color=#DC0000>o<font color=#A50000>ӄ<font color=#6E0000>ԏ<font color=#370000>o<font color=black>яΠ</font>ɛ</font>ə</font>и</font>9</font>9</font>]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<sub>{ROLLBACKER}</sub>]] 15:36, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-:I see no reason to require that when a user removes a clear violation on their userpage, when the editing summary covers that just fine. Leaving a talk page message is just redundant. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:39, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-::Let me rephrase. It should be required in all cases except clear violations of policy? For other situations, what if the user misses the edit or objects? '''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=red>Ƌ<font color=#DC0000>o<font color=#A50000>ӄ<font color=#6E0000>ԏ<font color=#370000>o<font color=black>яΠ</font>ɛ</font>ə</font>и</font>9</font>9</font>]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<sub>{ROLLBACKER}</sub>]] 15:40, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-:::The user should pay more attention to pages they watch over then, the watchlist exists for a reason. Do we require users to leave a talk page message whenever they make changes to other pages? We do not, and "requiring" users to do it for some edit to another userpage is unnecessary. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:50, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-::::Yes it is necessary. I suppose I should just go to your user page and change everything? Why should I have to use the watchlist function for '''''my''''' fucking user page when it's some other user who's being an ass about something on there? '''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=red>Ƌ<font color=#DC0000>o<font color=#A50000>ӄ<font color=#6E0000>ԏ<font color=#370000>o<font color=black>яΠ</font>ɛ</font>ə</font>и</font>9</font>9</font>]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<sub>{ROLLBACKER}</sub>]] 18:47, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-:::::Go ahead, and either I or someone else would revert that, regardless of if you were "required" to leave a talk page message. And if a user was going to vandalise your userpage, you think they would give a shit if they were "required" to leave a talk page message or not? A policy shouldn't attempt to cover your own inability at keeping an eye on your userpage. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:12, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-:::::Btw, threatening to vandalise my userpage is considered a personal attack. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:17, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-::::::I was not threatening to vandalise your user page. I was simply presenting a situation in a sarcastic sort of way. Your vandalism example fails because they are not following rules in the first place by vandalising, and I am referring to situations where another user changes something they think is a violation of their rights or policy or something. Why is it so hard to require a talk page message? It's not just for me; what if a user is new or rarely active? '''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=red>Ƌ<font color=#DC0000>o<font color=#A50000>ӄ<font color=#6E0000>ԏ<font color=#370000>o<font color=black>яΠ</font>ɛ</font>ə</font>и</font>9</font>9</font>]]''' [[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<sub>{ROLLBACKER}</sub>]] 00:06, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-:::::::"''I suppose I should just go to your user page and change everything?''"
-:::::::Changing everything for no apparent reason would certainly be vandalism.
-:::::::"''Why should I have to use the watchlist function for '''my''' fucking user page when it's some other user who's being an ass about something on there?''"
-:::::::I'm pretty sure a user being an ass on your userpage would be them vandalising your userpage.
-:::::::"''I was not threatening to vandalise your user page. I was simply presenting a situation in a sarcastic sort of way.''"
-:::::::Threat or not, you vandalising my userpage is irrelevant to the matter at hand, and had no merit in the argument.
-:::::::"''Your vandalism example fails because they are not following rules in the first place by vandalising, and I am referring to situations where another user changes something they think is a violation of their rights or policy or something.''"
-:::::::Your own example was of a user vandalising userpages, and I responded as necessary. In situations where a user removes a policy violation, they can explain it in the edit summary, and a message on the talk page is just redundant as I already explained.
-:::::::"''Why is it so hard to require a talk page message? It's not just for me; what if a user is new or rarely active?''"
-:::::::Regardless of you're active or not, the watchlist still works fine. And why is requiring that talk page message unnecessary for notifying users? There's an option you can check that emails you whenever a page on your watchlist is edited. If you're paranoid over your userpage being edited for whatever reason, put your userpage on your watchlist, and check that option. There you go, you get a direct message whenever your userpage is edited. There's absolutely no need for this policy to force users to leave a redundant talk page message. No matter what this policy says, if you miss an edit to your userpage not made by you, it's your own fault, and the Wiki does not need to cover for you.
-:::::::In the end, you're arguing over minor semantics, and opposing a perfectly fine policy over it. Policy already suggests users to leave a redundant talk page message, and as I pointed out, you can still get notified of your userpage being edited regardless of if a user leaves that talk page message. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 01:47, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Support''' Seems like a solid policy, even considering what DP99 said.<span style="font-family:Jokerman">[[User:Vincent Tran|<span style="color:Salmon">Vincent</span>]] [[User talk:Vincent Tran|<span style="color:red">Tran</span>]] <span style="color:Orange">Get ready for school ^_^ </span> </span>[[File:Kirby-1.png|30px]] 15:44, 3 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Support''' A user page policy is needed. Seems to cover all points. ☆<span style="font-family:Algerian">[[User:Solar Dragon|<span style="color:green">The</span>]] [[User talk:Solar Dragon|<span style="color:red">Solar</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Solar Dragon|<span style="color:blue">Dragon</span>]]</span>☆ 04:13, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Support.''' Seems reasonable. <sup>Smiddle&nbsp;</sup>[[User:Smiddle|君怒る]][[user talk:Smiddle|?]] 05:32, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Yesh'''. --'''''[[User:HavocReaper48|<span style="color:midnightblue;">Havoc</span>]][[User talk:HavocReaper48|<span style="color:indigo;">Reaper48</span>]]''''' 12:02, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-*'''Support''' - Perfectly sensible. All things need a policy. --[[User:Piratehunter|<span style="font-family:times new roman; font-size:12pt"><font color="Black">Pιʀaτзнυητзʀ</font></span>]] ([[User talk:Piratehunter|Talk]]&bull;[[Special:Contributions/Piratehunter|Contribs]]) 12:04, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-== !!! ==
-OK this may sound off topic, but I just missed the entire passing of my proposal. [[User:Mr. Anon|Mr. Anon]] ([[User talk:Mr. Anon|talk]]) 22:15, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-:Really not needed. <font face="Forte">[[User:BlindColours|<font color="#FFA500">Blin</font>]][[User talk:BlindColours|<font color="#00FFFF">dcol</font>]][[Special:Contributions/BlindColours|<font color="#00FF00">ours</font>]]</font> ''Stop smiling, it makes me happy.'' 22:16, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-:Recent events shown why this Wiki needs an actual userpage policy, and with the community behind it, I felt there was no need to wait any longer on passing this overdue policy. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 22:26, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-::BlindColours, I have had enough of this, you cannot tell other users what is not needed when you yourself make such comments like [http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:PSIWolf&diff=prev&oldid=377406 this] and [http://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=User_talk:BlindColours&diff=prev&oldid=377462 this] which I find pointless and childish, almost like you are getting the last word in for some reason. Although I did not say anything because I [[SW:AGF|assume good faith]] and think you are a valuable user like almost everyone in this wiki. But please reframe from doing this, you've basically achieved nothing apart from possibly hurting Anon's feelings, and if Anon would like to post this remark that he has missed HIS proposal which has been up for a while and sped through in one measly day i think he should.--[[User:Shaun's Wiji Dodo|<span style="color: green;">'''Shaun's Wiji Dodo'''</span>]] [[User talk:Shaun's Wiji Dodo|''<span style="color: green;">talk</span>'']] [[File:Untitled-1_copy.gif ]] 22:29, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
-:Woah. That's an easy problem to fix. Sorry.<font face="Forte">[[User:BlindColours|<font color="#FFA500">Blin</font>]][[User talk:BlindColours|<font color="#00FFFF">dcol</font>]][[Special:Contributions/BlindColours|<font color="#00FF00">ours</font>]]</font> ''Stop smiling, it makes me happy.'' 22:35, 4 September 2011 (EDT)
 == Subpages ==
-I think we should make it a rule that you must have all of your subpages linked to from your userpage, or have them all linked to from a subpage directory. It would prevent unlinked subpages from being "lost" (which could prove important if we ever have space issues and have to impose hard subpage restrictions, where we would get rid of non constructive subpages from inactive users), and it would make them easier to be kept track of (which will help us monitor users creating excessive subpages). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:21, 25 September 2011 (EDT)
+Can we add something about subpages to this?'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 02:17, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
-:Like me? I '''agree''' with this btw. <font face="Forte">[[User:BlindColours|<font color="#FFA500">Blin</font>]][[User talk:BlindColours|<font color="#00FFFF">dcol</font>]][[Special:Contributions/BlindColours|<font color="#00FF00">ours</font>]]</font> ''TONDA GOSSA.'' 17:22, 25 September 2011 (EDT)
+:That's nice and definite. I could definitely add "something about subpages"... though I don't know that it would do anything. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 02:44, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
-::'''Disagree'''. I don't think we should force users to have certain content on their userpage (and for someone who has a userpage like mine, implementing this policy would completely change how I want it to look). [[User:Mr. Anon|<font color="grey">'''Mr. '''</font><font color="midnightblue">'''Anon'''</font>]][[File:MatchupUnknown.png|23px]][[User talk:Mr. Anon|''<span style="color: black;">talk</span>'']]  17:24, 25 September 2011 (EDT)
+::Specific things, such as what can be allowed on them, what they are, what isn't allowed on them, the proper use of them, etc. <small>iFail.</small>'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 02:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
-:::All it does it force you to create a link to your subpages, so that they can be kept tracked of and not lost. Having such links won't ruin how your userpage looks. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:28, 25 September 2011 (EDT)
+::I would do it, but I can't make things seem official when I type them, such as te writing that is currently used in this policy.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 02:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
+:::What exactly were you thinking? --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 03:02, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
-[[Special:Allpages/User:Example]] naturally lists a user's entire userspace; I don't see how manual linking is required. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Frivolous 17:52, 25 September 2011 (EDT)
+::::I was just noticing how many users have subpages for random things. Well, [http://super-smash-bros.wikia.com/wiki/User:Smorekingxg456/User_Page#Sub_Pages here]. It explains some of the things I was thinking.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 03:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
-:I see. While I think it would be ideal for users to link to them from their userpage, that tool makes it not necessary to force. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 17:54, 25 September 2011 (EDT)
-::I'd just to point out that [[Special:PrefixIndex]] is a better page to use to find out this sort of information. <font face="Triforce">[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color="purple">Dokteur</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|<font color="purple">Pain99</font>]]</font>  18:32, 26 September 2011 (EDT)
-== This "relationships with other users" thing ==
-This is getting pretty stupid as far as I'm concerned. Rating other users by how much you like them is nothing but trouble and has proved to be such ever since the concept has spread from the userpages of the few to those of the general public. I'd like options on how we can kick it down a notch or seven, maybe even banning the concept (though that's a stretch). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 22:55, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
-:I would support banning them. They do nothing but strain relations farther between users, and lead to nonconstructive squabbles between users on talk pages that turn into outright insulting. Knowing what users anyone of nonprominence likes is not interesting in the slightest to begin with. It's just a retarded concept started by egocentric and tactless users, and with mine and RD's mocking of it making it even more popular, the only way to kill the fad is to ban it. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:16, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
-::I Agree. '''Support''' [[User:Dots|Dots]] [[User talk:Dots|The]] [[Special:Contributions/Dots|Safari]] [[File:NintenNESsprite.png|19px]] 23:23, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
-'''Support:''' Two users have been banned so far, partially due to the relationship charts existing at all. I want to see this come to an end before any more users get banned for this. [[User:Bandit|<font style='font-family:myriad pro;font-size:13pt;color:hsl(357.5,100%,50%)'>Bandit</font>]] 23:50, 20 September 2012 (EDT)
-This is too specific of a ban. We can't solve all of our problems by just making a rule that outlaws every little thing that goes bad on the wiki. Policies are supposed to be general rules that help the Wiki function in the long run, not specific rules we implement to solve our the problems of the now that won't be relevant in a week. We either need to ban the concept or just kill the matchup charts in other ways and then let it pass. Also, I would like to point out that if we ban the user matchup charts, it can be argued that it conflicts with the "X bugs me" is not a personal attack and therefore does not break policy provision. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 01:38, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
-:There's nothing wrong with banning something specific that has no constructive value and only has the potential to cause needless user disputes and disruption on the wiki. This isn't something that "won't be relevant in a week"; these "relationship matchups" have existed for a while now, and are only growing more popular. I'll also point out that saying we should find other ways to kill it without making any actual suggestions is hardly contributing.
-:"''Also, I would like to point out that if we ban the user matchup charts, it can be argued that it conflicts with the "X bugs me" is not a personal attack and therefore does not break policy provision.''"
-:This isn't about them being personal attacks, this is about the concept being idiotic, heavily prone to causing needless user disputes, being obvious flame bait in general, while having absolutely no constructive value. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:00, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
-::Banning "lists of how much you like other users" is general enough to cover all the problematic cases while leaving things open to other possible lists of users (matchups, funny stuff, etc). I would like to leave the door open somehow for those like RD's because of how obvious it is they're a parody, but that's probably not feasible.
+==The comment-removing impasse==
-::I should also note that calling these "user matchup charts" is faulty, as the term originally refers to the practice of listing how one fares against others in matches, which is perfectly fine. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The SMASH-GINEER 11:00, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
+Spurred by recent events, I've looked at this page and discovered something interesting. Many users agree that no one should ever remove non-spam comments from talk pages (even your own), without exception. This is considered an unwritten rule by many. However, both this page and [[SW:NPA]] clearly state that one's user talk page is the exception to the rule.
-:::I'm perfectly fine with player matchups; users tend to find them fun, they're interesting as users get to see how they stack up with others, and they have an objectionable basis. I'm referring entirely to "relationship matchups". As for parodies, I'm fine with them, but they just made straight "relationship matchups" more popular, and some users' "parodies" are just terrible and cause issues anyway (see Air Condtioner's "parody" and the subsequent Smash Master dispute). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:34, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
-If these do get banned, then alongside that rule on the policy page, I would discourage the basis of these matchup charts, that being "Users I have met on this wiki". We can't ban those, as they do nothing to cause conflict, but they are plain pointless. As if anyone would care if you spoke to a rollbacker once, it's easy enough to just leave something on their talk page. On the same sentence that explains the banning of these matchup charts, I would discourage these too, in the style of a guideline. As for banning these charts in the first place, I'm neutral on that matter. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="ff8c00">'''Toast'''</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="01a3c4">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 08:09, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
+What does this mean? It means that we have to decide which rule applies and make it the written rule, or even come up with something that's a hybrid of the two. But it cannot stay how it is now - which is a common unwritten rule that cannot coexist with a relatively-more obscure written rule.
-I now have no idea why I even had them in the first place. <span style="font-family:Corbel; font-size:12pt">[[User:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkblue">'''Smash''']] [[User talk:Smash Master|<span style="color:darkgreen">'''Master'''</span>]]</span></span> 15:36, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
+In my opinion, we should make a hybrid rule such as this: Users can remove negative comments (such as personal attacks) or irrelevant comments (such as "come brawl me") from their talk page, but related conversations must be kept as intact as possible (such as replacing a PA with "[PA by User]"), and all other talk pages must be kept intact (save for spam removal and the like).
-I '''Support''' what Toomai and OT said at the beginning of this discussion. This causes too much uneeded drama. <span style="font-family:Agency FB; font-size:12pt">[[User:BlindColours|<font color="black">'''Blind'''</font>]]</span><span style="font-family: Berlin Sans FB; font-size:12pt">[[User talk:BlindColours|<font color="red">C</font><font color="purple">ol</font>]][[ Special:Contributions/BlindColours|<font color="green">ou</font><font color="seablue">rs</font>]]</span> [[File:Boing.png|50px]] 18:34, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
+[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 03:31, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
+:Yes. Seems fair to me. ☆<span style="font-family:Algerian;">[[User:Solar Dragon|<font color="green">The</font> <font color="red">Solar</font> <font color="blue">Dragon</font>]] <sup>([[User talk:Solar Dragon|<font color="gold">Talk</font>]])</sup></span>☆ 06:39, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
-Would parodies be considered a bannable offence as well?
+:In general disagreement. Removal of comments from one's own talk page makes it implicitly understood that they've read what they're removing, which is the objective on a talk page; to make them read what is on it. What events are these you speak of? --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 07:59, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
+::The events I speak of are when Gargomon251 was removing a PA from his talk page by abridging the comment, while PoD reverted it and eventually archived and protected the page in its original state. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 01:13, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
-Otherwise, I '''support''' this.
+:Why not keep the wording of the unwritten rule? ''No'' comments should be removed from a talk page, imo, unless they're obvious spam and take up too much room (if it's just "wanna brawl?" then you might as well put a header above it and add a signature). Altering or removing another user's comment should be forbidden - it's not ''your'' talk page, it's a page that other users can use to contact you... Your user page is the only page that is truly ''yours''. Why does no one seem to get this...? '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 09:42, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
+::I didn't suggest that we have to make a new rule. I just made the observation that the unwritten rule and the written rule conflict with each other, and that such has to be fixed in some way (followed by my own suggestion). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 01:13, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
---- <font face="American Typewriter">''[[User:ReiDemon|Rei]][[User_talk:ReiDemon|Demon]], Author Extraordinaire''</font>, 18:38, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
+::Except a user talk page ''is'' the user's page (it has their name, doesn't it?). Just as I said, their removal of a comment gives us leeway to assume they read said comment and are thus bound by whatever consequences come of such acknowledgment. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 22:36, January 12, 2010 (UTC)
-:If all lists of how much users are liked are banned, including parodies, are banned, then I will support. But I'm not clear on what it is that's being banned, exactly. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 20:56, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
+:::Even though the page bears your name it still isn't really your page, it's the community's. Talk pages aren't for you to show off and make ridiculously beautiful or whatever you want to do, they're a means of for the community to contact you, and retaining functionality should be the primary goal here. I don't know about you, but I generally don't dig through hundreds of revisions to find a particular comment, I read the archive(s), and if the comments have been removed and not archived that functionality is no longer there. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 01:30, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
-::Simply, anything that rates/says how much you like each user, which are usually made as "relationship matchups". <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 21:54, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
+::::Agree, entirely. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 09:14, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
-:::Alrite; I will retract my opposition. '''''[[User:Dr. Pain 99|<font color=navy>D<font color=#190080>o<font color=#310080>c<font color=#490080>t<font color=#620080>o<font color=purple>rP</font>a</font>i</font>n</font>9</font>9</font>]]''''' <small>[[Special:Contributions/Dr. Pain 99|{ROLLBACKER}]]</small> 23:31, 21 September 2012 (EDT)
-I '''support''' their removal. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:01, 22 September 2012 (EDT)
+::::Disagree, almost entirely. Talk pages are a means of contacting a person (agreed), and that purpose is served by posting to them (agreed). It isn't, and shouldn't be, up to anyone else but the user whose orange bar shows up when something happens on his talk page, excluding obvious vandalism. This is a knee-jerk, especially given that it is within Gargo's right to remove any PAs directed at him on his own talk page. I stand by the premise that a talkpage bearing my name on it is mine to do with as I wish within wiki reason, regardless of your (plural) wishes. As a final note, archival is not a functionality, it is a courtesy. Diffs are the only exact [reliable] method of ensuring that pages have not been tampered with, which is the point of this, yes? Go diff hunting if you want to make sure you are remembering an archived commentary correctly. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 06:25, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::"it is within Gargo's right to remove any PAs directed at him on his own talk page" - that's what we're discussing, so you can't use it as an axiom on which to base your argument. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 09:14, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::That's fine, as that hardly discredits the argument. In any case, I consider it an inherent right, and so an axiom it is not.<br />Now it may come up that what I'm saying is an argument for something we banned long ago: the type of chit chat back and forth we tried to force onto IRC and through other means. But the primary concerns in that case were that the users clogged up IRC with meaningless (to most people) chit chat... This obviously isn't the same concern. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 22:43, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::::All I got out of that post was 1) I am right because I believe I am and 2) there was an irrelevant discussion about talk pages a long time ago. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 23:18, January 13, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::::Sky, I respect you, as you have been an admin for a long time. However, I agree with Shadowcrest and PoD on this one as it says on the page about PAs that you must ask an admin for permission before removing a PA from your talk page, which Gargo didn't do. [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 00:41, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
-'''Support, with a small condition.''' If the other user is fine with it, I don't see why you can't describe your relationship with them. [[User:Mr. Anon|<font color="grey">'''Mr. '''</font><font color="midnightblue">'''Anon'''</font>]][[File:Anon.png|23px|link=Special:Random]][[User talk:Mr. Anon|''<span style="color: black;">talk</span>'']]  13:05, 22 September 2012 (EDT)
+::::::::Yes, that's what we're talking about right now 98... whether that should change or not.<br />Cool story, SC. Number 2 is exactly correct, while number 1 should really read "I am right because it is wrong to force someone to look at something they don't want to on a page which is identified as being theirs." Nice strawman though.<br />So, someone has yet to explain why it's alright for us to '''force''' people to look at something that they may find disagreeable to them, as it's on a page they may be checking often, ''and'' has their name on it. Comeon, you three. One of you should be able to come up with something. :/ --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:04, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
-:Anything that you would have to "ask" another user to have on your userpage shouldn't on there to begin with. We're removing all of this shit, we're not half assing it. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:10, 22 September 2012 (EDT)
+:::::::::In no way are we forcing anything. There's such thing as "Archiving". [[Special:Contributions/98.117.158.220|98.117.158.220]] 01:21, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::::::Which doesn't relieve the problem of them having something on one of their pages... Besides, some don't like archiving more often than not. As I said earlier, "archiving" shouldn't be forced on people. If you want to read their archives, then go diff hunting (if you don't trust their archives to have what you think they should). If they want to read their archives, then we run into the same problem. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 01:33, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::::::::I fail to see the issue with "forcing" (quotes because it's something 99.9% of editors do anyway) editors to do something (on their own time, even) that causes no detriment to anyone and is beneficial to everyone. You can continue to bitch and moan about being oppressed and whatever, but if you'd present an actual reason not to archive other than "I dun wanna QQ" I'd greatly appreciate it. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 02:07, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
-This proposal seems to have unanimous support. Unless someone can put up a strong oppose before Monday night comes around, we'll start enforcing this. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 00:43, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+:outdent re Shadow: If you'd present an actual reason to archive other than "oh, I dun wanna QQ", I'd greatly appreciate it.<br />So just because everyone does it means we should force those who don't? That sounds a little dystopian to me&mdash;what about you? The person it causes detriment to is the user who doesn't want to archive. Duh. The only person it's beneficial to is the person who doesn't want to go through the work of checking the diffs. Right now, you're [[SW:AGF|assuming bad faith]] on the part of people who don't want to conform to your wiki-view. Sorry, but that's not cool. --[[User:Sky2042|Sky]] ([[User talk:Sky2042|t]] · [[Special:Contributions/Sky2042|c]] · [[w:c:wow:User:Sky2042|w]]) 02:24, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
-:I '''strongly oppose''' this. [[User:The Awesome|<font color="Blue">'''''The'''''</font>]] [[User talk:The Awesome|<font color="Blue">'''''Awesome'''''</font>]]  15:51, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+::Uh.. the entire reason for this change is to ''improve functionality'' of archives so that they are an accurate record of edits being made.
-::Provide a well thought-out reason or you're wasting our time. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Non-Toxic 16:11, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+::It's not dystopian because there's a good reason for people to archive, I'm not just spouting random bullshit for the luzl. (Read the line in the paragraph above this one.) Sure, it'd be great for me to just walk around the wiki telling dumb people that they're stupid as fuck and should just leave, for example, but hey look- there were rules implemented against that. For a good reason. hmmm.
-:I '''Strongly Oppose''' this. I think we should keep them and remove some which cause conflicts, but not all of them. [[User:The Awesome|<font color="Blue">'''''The'''''</font>]] [[User talk:The Awesome|<font color="Blue">'''''Awesome'''''</font>]]  16:15, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+::It causes no detriment to anyone, that's a load of crap. Literally, your sole "reason" boils down to nothing more than "I want a pony hurf durf." The only comments that have a legit reason to be removed are 1) vandalism and 2) posting of personal info. Other than that it's just a bunch of "omg so-and-so's mom called me fat I think I'm going to go cry unless the edit is deleted right now!!1" which is clearly pointless. If things like simple PAs or whatever bother you to the point where actually having a comment in an archive that nobody is forcing you to read interferes with your ability to function, seek help and/or quit the internet immediately. However, on the other side, '''''every single person who wants to find an old quote from someone's page''''' will benefit from having archives that have not been tampered with and are easily accessable, saving time and energy that could be put to a better use (ie actually improving the wiki) than looking through over 9000 diffs which lack utility.
-::That is a suggested course of action, not a reason. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Undirigible 16:20, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+::Anyway I'm going to assume you're just pulling at straws for an actual reason now because your last post was mostly devoid of content and full of a billion irrelevant/baseless comments (I missed where I assumed malicious intent?).  <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 02:44, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
-::Besides the aforementioned lack of actual reasoning there, I'll briefly say why that's a terrible and half assed way of dealing with this; it makes the Wiki look like tools who are afraid of negativity, and that will still cause problems (for example, someone who thinks they're your bestest friend sees you rated them lower than they like and starts arguing with you on your talk page over it, or someone who thinks you're their friend takes offense when you don't rate them and proceeds to argue about it). Plus, it still has absolutely no potential constructive value nor is of interest to anyone. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 23:54, 24 September 2012 (EDT)
+:::Shadowcrest, I doubt anyone would like to have their talk page flooded with PAs. Most PAs tend to be disruptive enough that they got their own [[SW:NPA|policy]], even though they're pointless. This is the reason why some wanted them to be removed, because the PAs are useless. The idea here was to create a hybrid rule for removing content on user talk pages, which was meant to be "removal of comments just for PAs and useless content such as 'wanna brawl?'" (Read Toomai's first post above.) I don't see why you'd want to "find old quotes" from this sort of stuff, and I don't think anyone else would actually care to.  And to be honest, the reason you aren't [[SW:AGF|assuming good faith]] is because you want everyone to agree to your point of view, and if they don't, they get treated like vandals. That's exactly what SW:AGF says not to assume. Moreover, this isn't even about the topic we're supposed to be discussing here; this was about suggestions for removal of talk page comments, not the rather pointless discussion above. So are we going to come to a consensus about it? '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 05:17, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
+::::Your first statement is fallacious. Yeah, I doubt anyone would really like it, but it is not only unrealistic for someone react so badly after the event has passed but it is also unrealistic for an actual flood of personal attacks to occur in such frequency that it could be considered a "flood". Then, read your next sentence. "'''''even though they're pointless.'''''" If you feel that personal attacks are pointless, why are you QQing up a storm about being able to remove them? Clearly there is no reason for someone to feel so excessively offended by a "pointless" comment, am I right? However, even though you may feel they're useless, having a(n easily accessible) record of them (and all comments) is not useless- don't confuse the two. As for why one would need to look up such a quote... seriously? What about for block rationales, or for RfA comments, or <etc etc etc>? Skipping past your ridiculous accusation (detailed below), .... this is related. As an alternative to allowing removing comments, which I and others disagree with, I am proposing that these PAs/useless comments like "wanna brawl" etc be immediately archived. That's fully on topic, please stop drastically missing the point.
+::::Um... "treating people who don't agree with me like vandals" is absolutely false. Like... straight up bull. If I had blocked you, Toomai and Sky and unilaterally implemented my own version of this proposal, then you'd have a case. Not now. So drop the 100% untrue accusations and please focus on the content and not the contributor- if you think my conduct has been inappropriate in some way, please bring it up [[User talk:Shadowcrest|here]] and stop making comments like "Hey, I like Toomai's proposal, and by the way fuck you Shadowcrest" which are not only fallacious but also serve to divert the discussion. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:07, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
+::::: Er…You clearly didn't re-read Toomai's post as I said, or else you would have realized that he intended to have the PA replaced by "[PA by User]." PAs are pointless in that they're worthless troll posts, which is pointless in terms of arguing in a discussion, but certainly not pointless in their attempts to attack people. Don't confuse the two. That also debunks your next statement about quotes unless you feel that I'm arguing that all content on a talk page is removable, which I'm not (Again, re-read Toomai's first post). As for the second part, I was using hyperbole. To put it in more understandable terms, you're assuming that those people who actually don't agree with your view on PAs and so-forth have malicious intents. As for your last sentence, what's the point in saying that? I'm not saying anything of that sort in any way, nor did I intend to. You're also being a hypocrite with that statement. "Hey, I like Toomai's proposal, and by the way fuck you Shadowcrest" seems to divert the discussion, which I tried not to. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 04:00, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::Er... you clearly don't get that there is essentially no difference between removing and editing comments, both of which are censorship. (You youself used the words interchangably 2 posts up, so don't give me some trash about them being different.) Whether it says "[PA by user]" or just doesn't exist, the comment is no longer accessible except through diff links, which is the entire point of this archival discussion. Not a single one of your comments has actually countered the fact that easily accessible archives are more functional and beneficial to the wiki than any presented alternative, instead making a ton of appeals to emotion and other irrelevant statements (assuming they really had any content at all- your last post contained maybe 3 relevant statements, none of which were true). Please present an actual reason against archives that aren't 100% based on feelings before I start copy+pasting my points because you've done nothing to refute them despite your attempts ad nauseam. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:48, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
-==Now that [[Smashwiki:Ownership]] is a thing....==
+:As for the topic at hand: Agreed. I don't think the pointless comments are at all helpful or needed, and I've had enough of having to read through silly yet disruptive PAs on talk pages. I think we need to get rid of them.  '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 05:17, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
-What do we do about the [[Smashwiki:User pages#Ownership|ownership section]] on here? I mean obviously link to the relevant policy but I'm not sure if we can just leave it there or if we have to rewrite it. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 03:41, 10 July 2017 (EDT)
+::How is an archived PA disruptive, may I ask? There seem to be a lot of unsupported assertions in this section. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 16:48, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
+:::It's a relative nuisance to most users who get PAd. If they want to go after a quote in an archive, they see the PA, which annoys them. Also, most of those "assertions" have been proved; could you point out others in this section? '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 19:24, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
+::::Frankly, the only time it is reasonable for someone to be seriously offended by personal attacks is if they're either really cruel or if you get caught up in the heat of the moment. For all but the most extreme personal attacks, however, it is ridiculous to be offended by reading them in an archive. Grow a thicker skin- you're on the internet. It is best to avoid posting when emotionally affected in any case. Furthermore, the archive serves as a more-accessible track record for users who personally attack others, allowing easier access to all available evidence and things, and if a user is so traumatized by a personal attack that they want it removed then this should serve to pacify them in any case. Still not seeing a viable reason to allow removing comments. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:07, January 14, 2010 (UTC)
+:::::Ok, fine. I'll agree with those first statements. However, see my first few statements on PAs in my post above. Using "[PA by User]" keeps that track record, so it serves to keep it without having to archive it, and it also minimizes the space. It's a lot more effective than those other two options, which is why I think it's best to use it. '''[[User:RAN1|<font color="darkred">R</font>]][[User talk:RAN1|<font color="navy">A</font>]][[Special:Contributions/RAN1|<font color="darkgreen">N</font>]]1''' 04:00, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
+::::::Censored comments != the real comments and they never will be regardless of any other random unrelated "benefits" (like space- it's an archive, who really cares how big it is, I don't think a sentence or even a paragraph is going to break anything) you may bring up. <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 21:23, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
-==Red links policy==
+Seeing as there's a bit of disagreement here, how about this proposal? Users are not allowed to remove abusive/irrelevant comments, but they can format them to make them hard to read or invisible. Such as <s>strikethrough</s> (although that one already has a function somewhat), <<font color="white">whiteout</font>> (can be read by highlighting), etc. The comments are still fully there (can be referenced), but hidden somewhat. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px]] <small><choose><option>eXemplary Logic</option><option>The Stats Guy</option><option>The Table Designer</option></choose></small> 22:38, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
-I would like to raise the issue of red links appearing on user pages and subpages. Currently, the only restriction on this in place is to not create links to articles that are not intended to be made. However, it has been brought up by users such as Omega Tyrant that linking to wanted pages - pages that ''are'' supposed to be made - can also be problematic, as it could serve to artificially inflate the number of red links to a wanted page, pushing it up in the wanted pages cache, which can only display a limited number of pages. Should there be rules in place restricting the ability to link to wanted pages on user pages? And if so, how strict should these restrictions be? ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:17, May 27, 2021 (EDT)
+:I still do not see how that is a better alternative than just archiving the comment (assuming there is no discussion about the comment, but if there's ongoing discussion then the comment shouldn't be stricken/altered/etc anyway). <span style="font-family:vivaldi; font-size:12pt">[[User:Shadowcrest|<span style="color:#4682b4">Shadowcrest</span>]]</span> 22:51, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
+::What Shadowcrest said, tbh... Why would one want to do anything to other users' comments aside from correcting spelling, punctuation and spacing (unless that comment is highly disruptive spam, in which case you should remove it)? What's the point in <s>striking</s>, <!-- "removing" --> or <font color="white">whiteouting</font> comments? They're still there, and they're still as "disruptive" as ever, just marginally harder to read... On the other hand, if one archives a PA, the only way one could read it would be if one were to go to the archive, in which case one would be bringing the resulting trauma upon oneself. '''''<span style="font-family:Arial;">[[User:PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Penguin</font>]][[User talk:PenguinofDeath|<font color="gray">of</font>]][[Special:Contributions/PenguinofDeath|<font color="silver">Death</font>]]</span>''''' 23:20, January 15, 2010 (UTC)
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