Editing SmashWiki talk:Smasher article guidelines

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:*'''Several players who don't need win lists still have them'''. Only players on a higher skill level than the player who made the upset should be listed, and as a player becomes a higher skill level, it means there are less and less reason to list certain players. However, there have been several cases where win lists weren't removed even if they reached the highest level. A very egregious example is CaptainZack, who is ranked 15th on the PGR 100 yet [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Smasher:CaptainZack&oldid=1603887 still had a win list for ''Smash 4'' until 2021]. People are more prone to keep adding to the list instead of removing when the time comes, which is one of the reason that leads to bloat. Connecting to the previous point, the win list for many players at or near the top is just a list of 8 top 20 players, which at that point feels unnecessary because they had basically prove they could compete against the best of the best.
:*'''Several players who don't need win lists still have them'''. Only players on a higher skill level than the player who made the upset should be listed, and as a player becomes a higher skill level, it means there are less and less reason to list certain players. However, there have been several cases where win lists weren't removed even if they reached the highest level. A very egregious example is CaptainZack, who is ranked 15th on the PGR 100 yet [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Smasher:CaptainZack&oldid=1603887 still had a win list for ''Smash 4'' until 2021]. People are more prone to keep adding to the list instead of removing when the time comes, which is one of the reason that leads to bloat. Connecting to the previous point, the win list for many players at or near the top is just a list of 8 top 20 players, which at that point feels unnecessary because they had basically prove they could compete against the best of the best.
:I do think there is still some merit in listing wins with context, however what we have right now is not really effective in my opinion. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:16, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
:I do think there is still some merit in listing wins with context, however what we have right now is not really effective in my opinion. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:16, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
:<s>'''Oppose'''</s> - I understand the arguments and issues, however, I believe they provide some useful information if a player doesn't have a tournament history section. Having a list of wins is an easy (if imperfect) way to give you a rough estimate of player level. Especially, in conjunction with an another imperfect measure, placements.  That said, I think there is merit in putting extra rules on win lists. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 12:45, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
:'''Oppose''' - I understand the arguments and issues, however, I believe they provide some useful information if a player doesn't have a tournament history section. Having a list of wins is an easy (if imperfect) way to give you a rough estimate of player level. Especially, in conjunction with an another imperfect measure, placements.  That said, I think there is merit in putting extra rules on win lists. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 12:45, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
::As I'll reiterate again, if the wins are that important, you should be able to provide the context to explain that importance, even if it's just something as basic as "this player got 4th at X superregional with wins on A, B, and C". whether it's in a proper history section or the intro. And I'll keep arguing that ''they don't'' provide helpful information when you just get a list of them with no context behind them. I'll pull up two random SSBMRanked players for example; here's {{Sm|mvlvchi}}, who article states "''He has wins over players such as Fiction, Ginger, SluG, moky, ARMY, Magi, Professor Pro, and Panda''", and then there's {{Sm|Palpa}}, whose article states "''He has defeated players such as Magi, bobby big ballz, Lucky, Frenzy, Albert, SDJ, and Mekk''". What is the meaningful difference here, how will the typical reader comprehend the significance of those wins, and how does this explain to readers why Palpa is ranked 12 spots higher on the 2023 SSBMRank? Or on the opposite end, lets look at some of the current notability cases where we have some more borderline regional-level players, for example {{Sm|Amud}}, whose article states "''taking sets over players like Takumi, Rayito, Dunkel, Tesla, T@cho, Perón, Byaks, and Soul''", or {{Sm|JacintoDC}}, whose article states "''He has taken sets off of players such as Aliluc, Cyrano, Boira, Byaks, Dunkel, Keme, Kaizen, Tesla''". How does this help explain the notability of these two players, especially when player database reveals they both have abysmal winrates (averaging less than 1-2 at tournaments), farther proving my point on how wins lists can be very misleading when someone can build up a lot of "impressive" regional wins by just getting a lot of opportunities to squeeze out one win at locals. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:04, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
::As I'll reiterate again, if the wins are that important, you should be able to provide the context to explain that importance, even if it's just something as basic as "this player got 4th at X superregional with wins on A, B, and C". whether it's in a proper history section or the intro. And I'll keep arguing that ''they don't'' provide helpful information when you just get a list of them with no context behind them. I'll pull up two random SSBMRanked players for example; here's {{Sm|mvlvchi}}, who article states "''He has wins over players such as Fiction, Ginger, SluG, moky, ARMY, Magi, Professor Pro, and Panda''", and then there's {{Sm|Palpa}}, whose article states "''He has defeated players such as Magi, bobby big ballz, Lucky, Frenzy, Albert, SDJ, and Mekk''". What is the meaningful difference here, how will the typical reader comprehend the significance of those wins, and how does this explain to readers why Palpa is ranked 12 spots higher on the 2023 SSBMRank? Or on the opposite end, lets look at some of the current notability cases where we have some more borderline regional-level players, for example {{Sm|Amud}}, whose article states "''taking sets over players like Takumi, Rayito, Dunkel, Tesla, T@cho, Perón, Byaks, and Soul''", or {{Sm|JacintoDC}}, whose article states "''He has taken sets off of players such as Aliluc, Cyrano, Boira, Byaks, Dunkel, Keme, Kaizen, Tesla''". How does this help explain the notability of these two players, especially when player database reveals they both have abysmal winrates (averaging less than 1-2 at tournaments), farther proving my point on how wins lists can be very misleading when someone can build up a lot of "impressive" regional wins by just getting a lot of opportunities to squeeze out one win at locals. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:04, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
:::I get your argument but it doesn't change the point I'm making. The win list can give you a rough estimate of level just as placements can. It's not going to tell us why someone is ranked 12 spots higher on a global ranking. Placement notability can also be misleading. In Brawl going 2-2 on average in Kanto or Tristate can be very misleading in terms of skill level or even relevance. Or another example, placing top 16 at 120 person events in Kansas is not the same as doing so at Sumabatos. While still notable, it's not even close to as difficult. Point is the more imperfect measures in the article the better picture someone can get. All that said, I agree that the more context we give in an article the better picture someone will get of a players notability or level, but that isn't the same thing as saying their is no value in a win list. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 18:28, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
:::I get your argument but it doesn't change the point I'm making. The win list can give you a rough estimate of level just as placements can. It's not going to tell us why someone is ranked 12 spots higher on a global ranking. Placement notability can also be misleading. In Brawl going 2-2 on average in Kanto or Tristate can be very misleading in terms of skill level or even relevance. Or another example, placing top 16 at 120 person events in Kansas is not the same as doing so at Sumabatos. While still notable, it's not even close to as difficult. Point is the more imperfect measures in the article the better picture someone can get. All that said, I agree that the more context we give in an article the better picture someone will get of a players notability or level, but that isn't the same thing as saying their is no value in a win list. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 18:28, March 29, 2024 (EDT)
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::::::Then add that information instead of trying to prevent us from initiating this amendment. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:03, April 14, 2024 (EDT)
::::::Then add that information instead of trying to prevent us from initiating this amendment. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:03, April 14, 2024 (EDT)
::Alright, after talking it over in Discord with OT, I feel comfortable to change my vote to '''Support''' as from what we talked about this doesn't mean people can just remove win lists. Rather, if your going to remove a win list it is expected you will provide context to the wins. And if one does so, it's fine to revert the edit and inform the person that they need to provide context to the wins instead of just removing the list. This addresses my issues, as it won't mean a bunch of articles suddenly are worse off and have less info, while at the same time it will lead to smasher articles that provide more useful and accurate representation of player skill. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 21:05, April 14, 2024 (EDT)


I expected some strong pushback for this change, so I was thinking of other ways we can denote wins without having to do a win list. There is obviously just writing more on each win on the intro, but I don't think it would lead to many people really reading it, since a win list is easier to just skim through than a chunk of text which actually requires effort to read. A second idea is having its own section, with some ground rules. Basically, something like this (using acola as an example):
I expected some strong pushback for this change, so I was thinking of other ways we can denote wins without having to do a win list. There is obviously just writing more on each win on the intro, but I don't think it would lead to many people really reading it, since a win list is easier to just skim through than a chunk of text which actually requires effort to read. A second idea is having its own section, with some ground rules. Basically, something like this (using acola as an example):
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:This here is one of the big problems with wins lists, they just encourage readers to glaze over the intro, especially when as what I said before, they often happen to just be a random looking assortment of globally ranked names and/or regional level names the reader likely never heard of. You want to give readers something to actually read and grip their attention in the written portions of the article (which Smasher articles as a whole have been really bad at, how many Smasher articles have their written portion just boil down to "Player X is a [insert specific Smash game] Y main from Z state/country. They were ranked/formally ranked Nth on Z power ranking. They have wins on A, B, C, etc."?). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:03, April 14, 2024 (EDT)
:This here is one of the big problems with wins lists, they just encourage readers to glaze over the intro, especially when as what I said before, they often happen to just be a random looking assortment of globally ranked names and/or regional level names the reader likely never heard of. You want to give readers something to actually read and grip their attention in the written portions of the article (which Smasher articles as a whole have been really bad at, how many Smasher articles have their written portion just boil down to "Player X is a [insert specific Smash game] Y main from Z state/country. They were ranked/formally ranked Nth on Z power ranking. They have wins on A, B, C, etc."?). <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:03, April 14, 2024 (EDT)
== Amendment of image policy ==
{{proposal}}
Currently, we allow people to remove images of themselves from Smasher articles under the personal information clause. Originally when these guidelines were first implemented, images '''were not''' allowed to be removed, but then during the time I was mostly inactive during later Smash 4 and early Ultimate, other administrators (who are now mostly inactive or fully retired and never fully involved in competitive Smash) were letting people remove their images despite it being against the guidelines (while also never making a formal proposal to amend it), and then when I became active again, I just went with it and amended the guidelines accordingly, as I didn't feel like arguing it at the time. However, letting people remove their images never sat right with me for the following reasons:
1: How is someone's appearance at public events considered "personal information"?
2: Player cams on tournament streams have been standard for nearly a decade now, unless someone plays in a full on disguise you are likely going to be able to see what they look like by just finding a streamed match of theirs online.
3: Pictures of players are often used for "official" promotional purposes, such as by sponsors, tournaments, and rankings.
4: Unlike with knowing a player's real name or birthday, a player's appearance ''is'' relevant information to documenting their Smash career; you should be able to know what a player looks like at tournaments, on streams, and any Smash-relevant photo.
To put it in another way, if a big name player like Mew2king or Hungrybox suddenly wanted all pictures of them removed off SmashWiki, would it really make any sense to abide to it? Of course not, so why should lesser players get special treatment in being able to remove their pictures off the wiki? As such, I want to propose the following amendment:
Smashers may only able to remove pictures of themselves from SmashWiki if the picture falls under one of the following criteria:
*The picture is a selfie taken by the smasher in question.
*The picture was taken in a private space or in some other non Smash-related space.
*The smasher wishes to replace the picture with a better quality and more up-to-date photo.
Smashers '''will not''' be able to remove a picture of them taken by someone else in a tournament or any public Smash-related space, any "official" promotional photos of them, nor any screenshots of them on a Smash stream.
Comment what you think of this proposal and any suggestions for farther amendments. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 13:29, April 19, 2024 (EDT)
I've already discussed my thoughts on the subject on Discord so I won't dive too much into it other than I'm a '''hesitant support''' to this. Also, as I brought up on Discord should anything copyrighted and used without permission be removed from the wiki? I knew in the past a picture of Tweek was taken down because of copyright reasons. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 15:55, April 19, 2024 (EDT)
'''Provisional support.''' I have a suggestion and a concern that I would like to see addressed first.
#There is a difference between "I knew someone was taking a picture of me" (this includes being streamed) and "I didn't know someone was taking a picture of me", and I think this difference would be easy to judge. I would suggest that this second case be valid for removal. I believe drawing the line at "consent" (for lack of a better term) would show good faith on our part without really opening the door to many more removals, as such photos would probably be too low-quality for us to want anyway.
#Players not of legal age could be a legal can of worms. Tread carefully.
[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Golden 17:17, April 19, 2024 (EDT)
:@Cookies: I don't think we go through removing any pictures without explicit permission from the copyright holder, if they care enough they'll make a formal complaint and we'll remove it then (though any pictures without the appropriate copyright information on its page should be fixed).
:@Toomai: I was thinking of putting an exception for "candid photos", but I have some problems with allowing that:
:*As I argued with Citrus in the Discord server, by attending any public event, you are waiving any claim to "privacy". Like someone who attends a sporting event and then unknowingly has photos and/or videos taken of them in the crowd wouldn't have any right to try taking down those photos/videos.
:*If we did allow an exception for this, what about any photos or videos where the person happens to be in the background that they didn't give express permission to be in? For example, I appear in the crowd of the famous [[:File:OCEAN defeats Mew2King APEX2012.jpg|OCEAN upsetting M2K]] picture and I was never asked to appear in that picture, would it be sensible for me to demand that picture be deleted from the wiki for my "privacy"? (I would say of course not, allowing me or anyone else that happened to be in that picture to take it down would be stupid and would directly harm the wiki).
:*Another wrinkle if we allowed this, what if someone wants to retroactively "revoke" their permission for a picture taken of them? Wouldn't it be contradictory for us to act like we care about if the initial picture had "permission" but then not care if someone later wants to revoke it?
:Now if someone doesn't like such a picture of them but has a suitable replacement, then that would of course be acceptable. And any inappropriate or overly low quality pictures would not be allowed to be uploaded to the wiki in the first place.
:As for letting minors have their pictures taken down, I was thinking of also making an exception for that, but that still has complications:
:*To my knowledge, minors attending public events don't have any legal protections from having pictures or videos of them, at least in the US. Like sporting events will have their crowd cameras focus on kids all the time. Has Wikipedia ever been forced to delete pictures of a minor they have an article about just because the subject is a minor?
:*If we did allow minors to remove pictures of themselves, then you open us to have to also take down any picture that happens to have them in the background like the aforementioned OCEAN picture, as well as not being able to link to any video where they appear on stream, at which point I think it would get really silly.
:*Some of the most renowned Smash players are/were minors and frequently show up in important promotional pictures/videos as a result. Like {{Sm|MkLeo}} was technically a minor still when he officially got ranked #1 on [[PGR v5]] and had this [[:File:PGRv5Card.png|promotional image of him commemorating his #1 ranking]], is it really in the wiki's best interest to let Leo force us to take that picture down if he decided he wanted no picture of himself as a minor on the wiki?
:Unrelated to these points, one other conundrum comes to mind is [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Country_specific_consent_requirements countries having different laws regarding the publishing of pictures without explicit consent]. If a tournament happened in a country that has strict laws against the publishing of pictures without consent, would the wiki be legally binded to take down such pictures if a picture's subject wanted us to? Or is the wiki being technically US-based means we would only have to follow the US' laws? I believe it's the latter, but I'm not a legal expert, so farther clarification by someone more knowledgeable on the subject would be appreciated. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 19:50, April 19, 2024 (EDT)
::I do agree with your counterpoints, we don't want to have "outs" or "loopholes", and I don't really have a good idea on how to close these ones. But having read both that and [https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Photographs_of_identifiable_people this] Wikimedia page, I think we're fine legally, and we have a solid "bigger brother" to link to in order to back our stance up. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 20:50, April 19, 2024 (EDT)

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