Editing SmashWiki talk:Smasher article guidelines

:*'''Several players who don't need win lists still have them'''. Only players on a higher skill level than the player who made the upset should be listed, and as a player becomes a higher skill level, it means there are less and less reason to list certain players. However, there have been several cases where win lists weren't removed even if they reached the highest level. A very egregious example is CaptainZack, who is ranked 15th on the PGR 100 yet [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Smasher:CaptainZack&oldid=1603887 still had a win list for ''Smash 4'' until 2021]. People are more prone to keep adding to the list instead of removing when the time comes, which is one of the reason that leads to bloat. Connecting to the previous point, the win list for many players at or near the top is just a list of 8 top 20 players, which at that point feels unnecessary because they had basically prove they could compete against the best of the best.

:I do think there is still some merit in listing wins with context, however what we have right now is not really effective in my opinion. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:16, March 29, 2024 (EDT)

::As I'll reiterate again, if the wins are that important, you should be able to provide the context to explain that importance, even if it's just something as basic as "this player got 4th at X superregional with wins on A, B, and C". whether it's in a proper history section or the intro. And I'll keep arguing that ''they don't'' provide helpful information when you just get a list of them with no context behind them. I'll pull up two random SSBMRanked players for example; here's {{Sm|mvlvchi}}, who article states "''He has wins over players such as Fiction, Ginger, SluG, moky, ARMY, Magi, Professor Pro, and Panda''", and then there's {{Sm|Palpa}}, whose article states "''He has defeated players such as Magi, bobby big ballz, Lucky, Frenzy, Albert, SDJ, and Mekk''". What is the meaningful difference here, how will the typical reader comprehend the significance of those wins, and how does this explain to readers why Palpa is ranked 12 spots higher on the 2023 SSBMRank? Or on the opposite end, lets look at some of the current notability cases where we have some more borderline regional-level players, for example {{Sm|Amud}}, whose article states "''taking sets over players like Takumi, Rayito, Dunkel, Tesla, T@cho, Perón, Byaks, and Soul''", or {{Sm|JacintoDC}}, whose article states "''He has taken sets off of players such as Aliluc, Cyrano, Boira, Byaks, Dunkel, Keme, Kaizen, Tesla''". How does this help explain the notability of these two players, especially when player database reveals they both have abysmal winrates (averaging less than 1-2 at tournaments), farther proving my point on how wins lists can be very misleading when someone can build up a lot of "impressive" regional wins by just getting a lot of opportunities to squeeze out one win at locals. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 18:04, March 29, 2024 (EDT)

:::I get your argument but it doesn't change the point I'm making. The win list can give you a rough estimate of level just as placements can. It's not going to tell us why someone is ranked 12 spots higher on a global ranking. Placement notability can also be misleading. In Brawl going 2-2 on average in Kanto or Tristate can be very misleading in terms of skill level or even relevance. Or another example, placing top 16 at 120 person events in Kansas is not the same as doing so at Sumabatos. While still notable, it's not even close to as difficult. Point is the more imperfect measures in the article the better picture someone can get. All that said, I agree that the more context we give in an article the better picture someone will get of a players notability or level, but that isn't the same thing as saying their is no value in a win list. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 18:28, March 29, 2024 (EDT)

:::::With all due respect, you haven't shown that. You've only shown how win lists on their own can be misleading. But you haven't shown how it's better to have a page where there is no win list, with no tournament history or wins with context which is essentially what well have with the majority of the pages with this proposal. Win lists also provide context. If a player has Kola, Ddee, and  Sonido wins, their probably pretty good. It's a valuable insight to have rather than just having random placements. And a lot of us are adding context to wins, if you've read any of the new pages. But that doesn't change that the majority don't have that information now, and that those pages would be worse off by just removing win lists. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 20:30, March 29, 2024 (EDT)

I expected some strong pushback for this change, so I was thinking of other ways we can denote wins without having to do a win list. There is obviously just writing more on each win on the intro, but I don't think it would lead to many people really reading it, since a win list is easier to just skim through than a chunk of text which actually requires effort to read. A second idea is having its own section, with some ground rules. Basically, something like this (using acola as an example):

:Ngl not entirely sure about this tbh. While having a win list is probably better than having none, a contextual win list is almost certainly always better. But a win list with actual context would probably be 3 of the smasher's best wins only or something otherwise it will be just bloated up with people keep adding wins like always. On the other hand, a record table might sound like a good idea but yeah as already pointed out it might be even harder to maintain because there's stuffs like local players who play each other a lot and crazy one-sided records and maybe the sandbagging shouldn't be counted but yeah idk. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 02:53, April 10, 2024 (EDT)