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| #Why not? It would definitely be useful. [[User:Kenniky|kenniky]] [[Image:SMASHROSTERSMALL.png|16px|link=User_talk:kenniky]] 23:58, 23 April 2017 (EDT) | | #Why not? It would definitely be useful. [[User:Kenniky|kenniky]] [[Image:SMASHROSTERSMALL.png|16px|link=User_talk:kenniky]] 23:58, 23 April 2017 (EDT) |
| #Shift to '''Support ''only as a guideline''''' per Nutty. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 19:54, 5 May 2017 (EDT) | | #Shift to '''Support ''only as a guideline''''' per Nutty. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 19:54, 5 May 2017 (EDT) |
| #'''Support''' Just so long as there can be some degree of flexibility with the "obscure names" rule. [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 14:47, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ==Oppose== | | ==Oppose== |
| #'''Oppose''' Eh, has there been a recent example of somebody making lots of pointless redirects? I would say this is the sort of thing that can be left up to the user's discretion when creating the redirects. If somebody did make a 'needless' redirect such as a capitalisation one, I don't think anyone would stand in the way of an admin wiping it on their own accord. Whether you're looking from the perspective of creating or deleting, generally people will be indifferent about each case. Adding a policy only makes the process feel more stringent, and people might start to question whether or not their redirect is useful. I doubt little-used redirects really take up much server space. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 00:26, 21 April 2017 (EDT) | | #'''Oppose''' Eh, has there been a recent example of somebody making lots of pointless redirects? I would say this is the sort of thing that can be left up to the user's discretion when creating the redirects. If somebody did make a 'needless' redirect such as a capitalisation one, I don't think anyone would stand in the way of an admin wiping it on their own accord. Whether you're looking from the perspective of creating or deleting, generally people will be indifferent about each case. Adding a policy only makes the process feel more stringent, and people might start to question whether or not their redirect is useful. I doubt little-used redirects really take up much server space. [[User:ToastUltimatum|<font color="darkorange">Toast</font>]] [[File:Wii U Logo Transparent.png|17px|link=Special:Contributions/ToastUltimatum]][[User talk:ToastUltimatum|<font color="seablue">'''ltimatum'''</font>]][[File:Transparent Swadloon.png|26px]] 00:26, 21 April 2017 (EDT) |
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| #:That's kind of the point, to get people to think before they make a redirect (or in many cases, a series of them) that I later have to delete <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 00:47, 21 April 2017 (EDT) | | #:That's kind of the point, to get people to think before they make a redirect (or in many cases, a series of them) that I later have to delete <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 00:47, 21 April 2017 (EDT) |
| #'''Oppose'''. This is a completely pointless policy. Redirect usefulness is generally determined on a case-by-case basis. Any user who repeatedly makes clearly useless redirects is likely trying to stir up trouble. If it were a guideline, I may agree, but I see no point in allowing punishment of users who are trying to make the wiki more navigable (or otherwise giving another redundant reason to punish troublemaking users). <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 00:09, 24 April 2017 (EDT) | | #'''Oppose'''. This is a completely pointless policy. Redirect usefulness is generally determined on a case-by-case basis. Any user who repeatedly makes clearly useless redirects is likely trying to stir up trouble. If it were a guideline, I may agree, but I see no point in allowing punishment of users who are trying to make the wiki more navigable (or otherwise giving another redundant reason to punish troublemaking users). <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 00:09, 24 April 2017 (EDT) |
| #'''Oppose''' I don't like the total ban on typo redirects. You say idiot-proofing, I say user-friendliness. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 10:43, 6 May 2017 (EDT) | | #'''Oppose''' This could really easily become controversial, especially regarding the "obscure names" rule, as some people only know something by an otherwise obscure name, e.g move decay (stale-move negation). If it is used by a group of people, no matter how small, it should be valid as a redirect (unless it's like one person who calls it that, in which case I agree that it is invalid). [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 09:41, 6 May 2017 (EDT) |
| | #'''Oppose'''' Agreed with Alex, and I also don't like the total ban on typo redirects. You say idiot-proofing, I say user-friendliness. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 10:43, 6 May 2017 (EDT) |
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| ==Neutral== | | ==Neutral== |
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| :::I'm not saying we have to be like Wikipedia, just that it colours people's expectations. And I think readers should be prioritised over editors simply because the whole point of making a wiki is for people to read it. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 16:06, 6 May 2017 (EDT) | | :::I'm not saying we have to be like Wikipedia, just that it colours people's expectations. And I think readers should be prioritised over editors simply because the whole point of making a wiki is for people to read it. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 16:06, 6 May 2017 (EDT) |
| Dear Serpent King. | | Dear Serpent King. |
| I would like to try to explain my opposition as clearly as possible, as well as clear a few things up. Firstly, the reason I re-explained my criticism was because you said 'I don't really understand your opposition', which implied that I may not have explained my opposition properly. Therefore I went into a bit more detail the second time round. However when you ignored it, it felt like you didn't care, especially since, as stated earlier you last comment on my opposition was 'I don't really understand your opposition', suggesting that you just saw my opposition as meaningless. Secondly, you still have not directly addressed my criticism of the "obscure names" rule, as you original comment on it focused entirely on the example I gave, which was just the first thing that popped into my head, and was not intended to be the basis of my argument. To re-iterate, my main issue is that just because something is obscure, doesn't mean it is invalid, and as long as it is recognised by some people, it should justify a redirect. If you could please directly comment on this viewpoint so I can better understand your point of view, I would be grateful. Finally, I would like to add that my suggestion about that particular rule merely being a guideline COULD work, as there is a difference between a rule and a guideline. Making the suggestion for redirects to not constantly be used for obscure names would give a user a better idea of what kinds of things need redirects, but doesn't forbid them from making obscure redirects if they feel it will be helpful (which it certainly could be). [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 16:34, 6 May 2017 (EDT) | | I would like to try to explain my opposition as clearly as possible, as well as clear a few things up. Firstly, the reason I re-explained my criticism was because you said 'I don't really understand your opposition', which implied that I may not have explained my opposition properly. Therefore I went into a bit more detail the second time round. However when you ignored it, it felt like you didn't care, especially since, as stated earlier you last comment on my opposition was 'I don't really understand your opposition', suggesting that you just saw my opposition as meaningless. Secondly, you still have not directly addressed my criticism of the "obscure names" rule, as you original comment on it focused entirely on the example I gave, which was just the first thing that popped into my head, and was not intended to be the basis of my argument. To re-iterate, my main issue is that just because something is obscure, doesn't mean it is invalid, and as long as it is recognised by some people, it should justify a redirect. If you could please directly comment on this viewpoint so I can better understand your point of view, I would be grateful. Finally, I would like to add that my suggestion about that particular rule merely being a guideline COULD work, as there is a difference between a rule and a guideline. Making the suggestion for redirects to not constantly be used for obscure names would give a user a better idea of what kinds of things need redirects, but doesn't forbid them from making obscure redirects if they feel it will be helpful (which it certainly could be). |
| :So say that a small community of people suddenly start calling Pikachu "hotdog" or something (I know it's a dumb example, but I have seen dumber nicknames). Would you want a redirect like that? This is the kind of thing that our policies are meant to protect against. Additionally, each redirect situation can be evaluated against this policy as they come. The policy does not set a hard fast "notability limit" on unofficial nicknames, only mentioning that they must be at least somewhat well known. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 16:47, 6 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ::I guess I see your point. But for things like that it may be better to take things on a case by case basis like DNK suggested. I basically agree with all the other rules, but i really think that the obscure name thing should be more of a guideline. Like I said, if it would be helpful to make the redirect, which in the case of your "hotdog" example it would not, then I think it should be valid. Like for example if a youtube video referred to a known tech by an obscure name, and then a bunch of people who saw the video started calling it that, having no idea what the real name is, they may never find the page for that tech. If it is something that people would genuinely search for (which almost certainly would not be the case with "hotdog", which is a key difference) then it really should be a redirect. To re-use my previous example of move decay, although it is pretty obscure, there are still people who would search it (like I once did many years ago, I never found the page back then), therefore it deserves a redirect. However your example of "hotdog" is realistically not something people would actually search for, as they would already know Pikachu's name, as well as know that there is no way he would actually be called hotdog. Even if a group of people started calling it that, no one would expect it to be a redirect. But some obscure names sound sensible, and may refer to things where a lot of people don't actually know the official name, and in that case, even if it is not hugely popular, I still feel it should have a redirect. It just seems like the section on that on the page is too restrictive. Every case is different, and some alternate name, are relevant, even if they are not well known. In the same way, just because something is well known doesn't mean it deserves a redirect. To use an example similar to "hotdog", but well known, many people know the nickname "Baeonetta", but obviously that would be a stupid thing to have a redirect for. I know I've waffled a bit but what I'm basically saying is that wether or not a redirect is justifiable should be based on how sensible it is, not how well known it is (A.K.A move decay = good, Baeonetta = bad). [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 17:05, 6 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ::Except that if an obscure name becomes more popular, it's not obscure anymore... Like I said, there is no hard fast rule on how popular an unofficial name must be, and it would be considered on a case by case basis anyway. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 18:30, 6 May 2017 (EDT)
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| For what it's worth, "Shiek" is both an insanely common typo and her actual name in German (because "ie"/"ei" stuff). That's more than reason enough for it to merit a redirect. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:09, 6 May 2017 (EDT)
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| :I actually have to side with Serp on this one. I for one probably don't want typos to be redirected, because number 1, it makes them harder to spot because they both show up blue, and number 2, allowing typos to be redirected encourages the mistakes. That said, you make a good point about the German name thing - so while a typo wouldn't be a good reason for a redirect, if it was the actual name of another localisation, that would be a good reason. Regardless, I think I want to leave this one. [[User:Black Vulpine|Black Vulpine]] ([[User talk:Black Vulpine|talk]]) 21:33, 6 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ::I must admit I'm increasingly concerned about the eagerness to delete redirects of value, which includes some misspelling-based redirects. While we certainly don't need to cover every possible misspelling ("Yohsi's Island"), particularly common ones should definitely remain as a means of convenience. There's a point at which you're undoing harmless convenience more than doing anything of value. There's a difference between inventing 37 names for "match timer" and taking out redirects that are probably getting actual use through the search bar. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 11:29, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| :::Although I've made my gripes about the obscure names rule clear, I actually agree with the typos one. As someone who hates typos, I think it's important that it is clearly pointed out when they make a typo. The easiest way to do this is to stop accommodating for spelling errors that users regularly make. for example if someone kept typing "definetely" instead of "definitely", but a redirect made it seamlessly appear as though they had spelt it correctly, they will just continue to make that mistake. [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 12:01, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ::::That's a bit of a stretch; it clearly says at the top that you were redirected if you use the wrong title. Disregarding the official-in-Germany aspect for a moment, if someone types "Shiek", why make them go through the extra effort of figuring out how it's spelled instead of redirecting them to the page they were clearly looking for? Deliberately inconveniencing the end user because you assume they won't notice the "redirected from _____" notice is a counterproductive idea. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 12:07, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| :::::[[File:Screen Shot 2017-05-07 at 17.16.53.png|thumb|right]] this is your idea of "clearly"? A tiny message in the top corner... [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 12:21, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ::::::Which is exactly where the beginning of the article is, and the first place a user is likely to look. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 12:24, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ::::::I should hope that if someone types in "Shiek" and gets taken to a page that says "Sheik" all over it, they will probably get the point. [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 13:38, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| :::::::But it's also about how redirects take up space and cause clutter, and is it really worth having a bunch of redirects for typos which at best would save a few seconds? Redirects really should be for things with alternate names that it may take a lot longer to find the real name of, rather than a typo. [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 13:44, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| ::::::::I have a hard time believing that a few redirects for common typos would cause any real problem. Even this policy proposal concedes that redirects are "cheap". [[File:Zyrac sig.png]] <font face="Lucida Console">[[User:Zyrac|<font color="green">'''Zyrac'''</font>]]<small>([[User talk:Zyrac|<font color="green">talk</font>]]•[[Special:Contributions/Zyrac|<font color="green">contribs</font>]])</small></font> 14:07, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| Also, to anyone concerned that leaving redirects encourages "laziness" in their usage and the potential for leaving misspellings in the mainspace, keep in mind you can always use [[Special:WhatLinksHere]] to check things like [[Special:WhatLinksHere/Shiek]] to make sure it's not being misspelled in the mainspace. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 16:37, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| Maybe something like Shiek can be an exception then. I don't want redirects like "Zeor Suit Samus" or "Like ike". Gunna include a thing about exceptions on the policy. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 17:45, 7 May 2017 (EDT)
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| == Plurals ==
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| Are plural redirects yay or nay? I ask this because Disaster Flare recently deleted 2 redirects that were pluralizations. [[User:Alex Parpotta|Alex Parpotta]] ([[User talk:Alex Parpotta|talk]]) 15:58, 30 May 2017 (EDT)
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| :Plural redirects are usually a no because the syntax <nowiki>[[egg]]s</nowiki> can basically fake them for links, and there's no reason to type "eggs" in the search box when you can just type "egg". But for non-additive plurals, like "trophy" vs "trophies", they're okay. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 21:04, 30 May 2017 (EDT)
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| What about cases like [[Hacks]], [[Items]], [[Rumors]], [[Stickers]], [[Custom moves]], or [[Stale Moves]]? What in the world does "easily searchable" mean? <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 20:55, 1 June 2017 (EDT)
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| :Why don't you try actually asking nicely instead of being a dick about it? I meant that someone could feasibly search for the plural of those words and come up with nothing if the redirects are deleted. Some are pointless, like peanuts and apples, but others are not. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 21:06, 1 June 2017 (EDT)
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| :Also Rumors points to "List of Rumors" so it makes sense. Stale Moves is what Melee calls the bonus that you get, and Items is in the side bar. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 21:08, 1 June 2017 (EDT)
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| ::oookay, if you consider "what in the world" as "being a dick", you need to get out more, lol
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| ::But how do you actually define it? What actually makes "Stickers" more feasible to be searched than "Peanuts"? That's extremely subjective. You can't possibly believe that that's an enforceable rule. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small> 21:32, 1 June 2017 (EDT)
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| :::I can because "Peanut" is the name of the item. "Sticker" is the name of the item but "Stickers" is the name of the corresponding trophy. Also there are many different stickers, there is only one peanut. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 21:36, 1 June 2017 (EDT)
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| ::::Ayyyy, if it isn't Nutta himself!! Sorry but I gotta agree with SK. Plus, "he needs to get out more"? Come on man, [[SW:NPA]] applies outside of talk pages, too. --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|40px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''Beep'''</font>]] [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]] 22:59, 1 June 2017 (EDT)
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