Editing SmashWiki talk:Manual of Style
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== Should we change the default pronouns on Robin, Corrin, Inkling, etc.’s pages to gender neutral pronouns? == | == Should we change the default pronouns on Robin, Corrin, Inkling, etc.’s pages to gender neutral pronouns? == | ||
The tips in Ultimate use gender-neutral pronouns (In their series” instead of “In his series”), so I feel like we might need to change the rules on this to be consistent with what the actual games say | The tips in Ultimate use gender-neutral pronouns (In their series” instead of “In his series”), so I feel like we might need to change the rules on this to be consistent with what the actual games say {{unsigned|184.181.102.188|14:30, January 12, 2019}} | ||
:No, refer [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Inkling_%28SSBU%29&type=revision&diff=1162582&oldid=1162577 here] to why. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:39, 12 January 2019 (EST) | :No, refer [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Inkling_%28SSBU%29&type=revision&diff=1162582&oldid=1162577 here] to why. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:39, 12 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:Also, I should probably state that [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]], judging how my previous explanation probably wasn't the best. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:41, 12 January 2019 (EST) | :Also, I should probably state that [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]], judging how my previous explanation probably wasn't the best. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:41, 12 January 2019 (EST) | ||
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:This would provide a useful benefit: being consistent with the ingame slurce material. Even if the tips largely avoid using pronouns in general, I’d say that still counts as treating them as gender-neutral [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 21:43, 12 January 2019 (EST) | :This would provide a useful benefit: being consistent with the ingame slurce material. Even if the tips largely avoid using pronouns in general, I’d say that still counts as treating them as gender-neutral [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 21:43, 12 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::Again, [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]]. We don't have to change something just to match up with what the game does. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:08, 12 January 2019 (EST) | ::Again, [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]]. We don't have to change something just to match up with what the game does. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:08, 12 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::: “Prioritize using official names unless a different name is much more widely used.” (The “Do” number 3 on that page) .Pronouns count as names, as they merely just replace the name with something easier to type. Nintendo officially calls characters with gender alts “they” and “them”. While a majority of fans use specific gendered pronouns, there are cases where the alt’s pronoun is used instead. To appease both ends, I believe that the rule on referring characters as their default gender should be changed, as not only does it use official terms, it also appeases fans of the alts (such as that crazy Corrin fan who keeps showing up) | ::: “Prioritize using official names unless a different name is much more widely used.” (The “Do” number 3 on that page) .Pronouns count as names, as they merely just replace the name with something easier to type. Nintendo officially calls characters with gender alts “they” and “them”. While a majority of fans use specific gendered pronouns, there are cases where the alt’s pronoun is used instead. To appease both ends, I believe that the rule on referring characters as their default gender should be changed, as not only does it use official terms, it also appeases fans of the alts (such as that crazy Corrin fan who keeps showing up) {{unsigned|184.181.102.188|22:19, January 12, 2019}} | ||
::::Woah, at least [[SW:NPA|watch the personal attacks]]. Anyways, the Do in number 3 is a rule geared towards smash terms such as "JV5" or "4-stock" and not really names of characters. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 22:24, 12 January 2019 (EST) | ::::Woah, at least [[SW:NPA|watch the personal attacks]]. Anyways, the Do in number 3 is a rule geared towards smash terms such as "JV5" or "4-stock" and not really names of characters. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 22:24, 12 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::::Alright. Maybe I misunderstood that rule. However, despite SmashWiki being unofficial, I’d still suggest changing genderswap alts to use gender-neutral pronouns to be consistent with what Nintendo says. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 05:18, 13 January 2019 (EST) | :::::Alright. Maybe I misunderstood that rule. However, despite SmashWiki being unofficial, I’d still suggest changing genderswap alts to use gender-neutral pronouns to be consistent with what Nintendo says. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 05:18, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ||
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::::::I do agree that it won’t make too much sense if the universe-level is going to be gender-neutral and the fighter pages be gendered. Should we reopen discussion about this? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:36, 10 February 2019 (EST) | ::::::I do agree that it won’t make too much sense if the universe-level is going to be gender-neutral and the fighter pages be gendered. Should we reopen discussion about this? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:36, 10 February 2019 (EST) | ||
It’s been roughly 24 hours. Have we all come to a consensus on if the “refer to characters with multiple genders by their default costume” rule should stay or go? Personally, I’d say remove the rule, as like Emmet said, it’s more consistent with non-fighter pages, and will become less confusing in case a character changes their default gender. | It’s been roughly 24 hours. Have we all come to a consensus on if the “refer to characters with multiple genders by their default costume” rule should stay or go? Personally, I’d say remove the rule, as like Emmet said, it’s more consistent with non-fighter pages, and will become less confusing in case a character changes their default gender. {{unsigned|99.203.11.147|21:01, January 13, 2019}} | ||
:I think we should wait a bit more, no one has responded after Emmett's point, which to be fair is a pretty valid argument. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 21:06, 13 January 2019 (EST) | :I think we should wait a bit more, no one has responded after Emmett's point, which to be fair is a pretty valid argument. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 21:06, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:I brought this up earlier ([[Forum:General proposals#Gender-neutral writing|on the general proposals page]]) and was mostly met with opposition, but I still think going gender-neutral would be the better option. The "use the gender of the default costume" rule leads to a lot of confusion, and it wouldn't hurt the flow much to just use "they". [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 22:30, 13 January 2019 (EST) | :I brought this up earlier ([[Forum:General proposals#Gender-neutral writing|on the general proposals page]]) and was mostly met with opposition, but I still think going gender-neutral would be the better option. The "use the gender of the default costume" rule leads to a lot of confusion, and it wouldn't hurt the flow much to just use "they". [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 22:30, 13 January 2019 (EST) | ||
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:I'd say there's a consensus, but don't take my word for it. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:09, 15 January 2019 (EST) | :I'd say there's a consensus, but don't take my word for it. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:09, 15 January 2019 (EST) | ||
::Why do you all seem so desperate to push this through as soon as possible? This is a relatively major change that needs weeks to discuss from more than 6-7 people, not days. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 22:26, 15 January 2019 (EST) | ::Why do you all seem so desperate to push this through as soon as possible? This is a relatively major change that needs weeks to discuss from more than 6-7 people, not days. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 22:26, 15 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::It’s actually a relatively simple change, which is why I’m scratching my head at it taking so long. Attempting to not break the rules, I actually edited the SSBU pages for Corrin, Inkling, Robin, Villager, and Wii Fit trainer to not contain pronouns at all (aside from the World of Light section, where I specifically state the default one). You can actually check out [[Corrin (SSBU)]], [[Inkling (SSBU)]], [[Robin (SSBU)]], [[Villager (SSBU)]], and [[Wii Fit Trainer (SSBU)]] to see if they look like the rule should be lifted or banned. Or heck, just replace the rule with a suggestion to avoid using pronouns at all, just like a all of the tips outside of the “In Their Series” section. | :::It’s actually a relatively simple change, which is why I’m scratching my head at it taking so long. Attempting to not break the rules, I actually edited the SSBU pages for Corrin, Inkling, Robin, Villager, and Wii Fit trainer to not contain pronouns at all (aside from the World of Light section, where I specifically state the default one). You can actually check out [[Corrin (SSBU)]], [[Inkling (SSBU)]], [[Robin (SSBU)]], [[Villager (SSBU)]], and [[Wii Fit Trainer (SSBU)]] to see if they look like the rule should be lifted or banned. Or heck, just replace the rule with a suggestion to avoid using pronouns at all, just like a all of the tips outside of the “In Their Series” section. {{unsigned|184.181.102.188|00:59, January 16, 2019}} | ||
::::I wouldn't support a rule removing all pronouns entirely. When used properly they greatly improve the flow of sentences. That said, while I think it's a simple change in terms of the complexity, it's also not a particularly urgent or important one, so I don't overly see the harm in waiting until discussion has progressed further. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ::::I wouldn't support a rule removing all pronouns entirely. When used properly they greatly improve the flow of sentences. That said, while I think it's a simple change in terms of the complexity, it's also not a particularly urgent or important one, so I don't overly see the harm in waiting until discussion has progressed further. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ||
:::To respond to Toomai, I was mainly just tallying up the consensus, since IP had asked whether we had one or not. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 13:47, 16 January 2019 (EST) | :::To respond to Toomai, I was mainly just tallying up the consensus, since IP had asked whether we had one or not. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 13:47, 16 January 2019 (EST) | ||
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I propose that we start trying to avoid using "would" as much as possible (but at the same time we don't have to aggressively correct all the "woulds" that still exist, and plan for them to eventually fade out over time. This might just be something only I really care about and if everyone else disagrees I won't really fight it, but I'm curious if you all have any strong opinions on this. '''[[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">Awesome</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">Cardinal 2000</span>]]''' 23:57, March 2, 2021 (EST) | I propose that we start trying to avoid using "would" as much as possible (but at the same time we don't have to aggressively correct all the "woulds" that still exist, and plan for them to eventually fade out over time. This might just be something only I really care about and if everyone else disagrees I won't really fight it, but I'm curious if you all have any strong opinions on this. '''[[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">Awesome</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">Cardinal 2000</span>]]''' 23:57, March 2, 2021 (EST) | ||
:Yeh, that honestly seems a little bit much to me. Honestly I don’t even understand why it could be an issue. Both wordings are just as effective but neither one sounds more informal than the other. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 00:29, March 3, 2021 (EST) | :Yeh, that honestly seems a little bit much to me. Honestly I don’t even understand why it could be an issue. Both wordings are just as effective but neither one sounds more informal than the other. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 00:29, March 3, 2021 (EST) | ||
