Editing SmashWiki talk:Manual of Style

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==Ruling against "news report" writing==
==Ruling against "news report" writing==
{{proposal}}
I think there should be some kind of rule against writing pages as if they were forums or news articles. Pages should to the best of our knowledge be written now as they should look later on down the line; if you just focus on keeping it up to date, you get what happened with Vergeben's page which got several whole-ass one-liner linebreaks for ''each minor update'' (tell me the "DLC leaks" section [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Vergeben_leaks&oldid=1328193 here] does not look stupid as fuck; I get doing this the first three times or so but after that it was clearly ridiculous). This was even acknowledged as a problem with posting about rumors [[Forum:Major overhaul for "List of rumors"|in this forum discussion]] ("Rumors are treated like a play-by-play with up-to-the-minute detail."), so I get the feeling it wasn't just me. I don't know how well competitive pages have dealt with this problem if at all, though given this message in the source of MkLeo's page ("We are in no rush to adding in these sections. If you are to add something, don't just add a sentence or two as if it's a real-time report."), I can't imagine it going very well there either. I am not suggesting we ban live reporting entirely - I already know [[SmashWiki talk:What SmashWiki is not#Suggestion: SW is not live|that proposal failed]], and [[List of Director's Room Miiverse posts|there are pages that effectively function as a time capsuled news report]] - but I think it needs to be made clear that just because we have a news section does not mean this is a news site and so it should not be treated like one. I suppose this could be solved with a new section in SW:NOT saying "SmashWiki is not a news report", but my issue is moreso with articles entering somewhat of a "forum" mode just so they're up of date; I figured this'd be the best place for that. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 01:16, February 2, 2023 (EST)
I think there should be some kind of rule against writing pages as if they were forums or news articles. Pages should to the best of our knowledge be written now as they should look later on down the line; if you just focus on keeping it up to date, you get what happened with Vergeben's page which got several whole-ass one-liner linebreaks for ''each minor update'' (tell me the "DLC leaks" section [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Vergeben_leaks&oldid=1328193 here] does not look stupid as fuck; I get doing this the first three times or so but after that it was clearly ridiculous). This was even acknowledged as a problem with posting about rumors [[Forum:Major overhaul for "List of rumors"|in this forum discussion]] ("Rumors are treated like a play-by-play with up-to-the-minute detail."), so I get the feeling it wasn't just me. I don't know how well competitive pages have dealt with this problem if at all, though given this message in the source of MkLeo's page ("We are in no rush to adding in these sections. If you are to add something, don't just add a sentence or two as if it's a real-time report."), I can't imagine it going very well there either. I am not suggesting we ban live reporting entirely - I already know [[SmashWiki talk:What SmashWiki is not#Suggestion: SW is not live|that proposal failed]], and [[List of Director's Room Miiverse posts|there are pages that effectively function as a time capsuled news report]] - but I think it needs to be made clear that just because we have a news section does not mean this is a news site and so it should not be treated like one. I suppose this could be solved with a new section in SW:NOT saying "SmashWiki is not a news report", but my issue is moreso with articles entering somewhat of a "forum" mode just so they're up of date; I figured this'd be the best place for that. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 01:16, February 2, 2023 (EST)
:I '''support''' this idea. There are definitely cases where live reporting is necessary (even other than those you mentioned, such as the competitive scene), but at the end of the day, we're not a news source, we're a wiki. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Lovely Gamer'''</span>]] 12:23, February 2, 2023 (EST)
:I '''support''' this idea. There are definitely cases where live reporting is necessary (even other than those you mentioned, such as the competitive scene), but at the end of the day, we're not a news source, we're a wiki. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Lovely Gamer'''</span>]] 12:23, February 2, 2023 (EST)
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:I wouldn't say this failed, those that responded shown majority support. Seems to be one of those things where apathy took over and people just didn't care enough to push it through, nor even officially try declaring it as failed, I know I forgot about it shortly after posting about it, with it being during the time I was mostly inactive. I think the discussion about it could be revived, I still don't like people immediately updating tournament pages after every single player gets knocked out, though given a lot of the non-competitive focused editors are now inactive with it being over four years since the last game's release with no sight of a new game, and traffic in general is lessened, it is not as pressing of an issue when that concern was brought up six years ago. That said, it can still be argued to push it through anyway for future proofing.
:I wouldn't say this failed, those that responded shown majority support. Seems to be one of those things where apathy took over and people just didn't care enough to push it through, nor even officially try declaring it as failed, I know I forgot about it shortly after posting about it, with it being during the time I was mostly inactive. I think the discussion about it could be revived, I still don't like people immediately updating tournament pages after every single player gets knocked out, though given a lot of the non-competitive focused editors are now inactive with it being over four years since the last game's release with no sight of a new game, and traffic in general is lessened, it is not as pressing of an issue when that concern was brought up six years ago. That said, it can still be argued to push it through anyway for future proofing.


:Regarding this, I am in agreement to not write pages as live reports, and have voiced my disapproval before in the discord server of smasher articles having history sections that are written like sloppily-made "real-time reports", that consist of just regurgitating their result at every single significant tournament. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:43, February 2, 2023 (EST)
:With that said, I am in agreement to not write pages as live reports, and have voiced my disapproval before in the discord serve of smasher articles having history sections that are written like sloppily-made "real-time reports" that consists of just regurgitating their result at every single significant tournament. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:43, February 2, 2023 (EST)
 
== What to do if a character's home series name changes ==
 
It's been noticed that there's a potential hole in the MoS with regards to this point:
:''General character articles (those that focus on a character as they are outside of the Smash Bros. series) should be named according to how the character is most commonly known in their originating series.''
The question is, what happens if that "most common" name changes? As a silly example, imagine that Nintendo starts to refer to "Mario" as specifically "Super Mario". What do we do with his general character page?
# Change it immediately after it's apparent the name change is permanent
# Change it only after enough time has passed that it's actually the "most common" name
# Change it only once there's been a new Smash Bros. game since the name change
Is there a best idea here? Are there any other possibilities that make sense? No voting (yet?), just open discussion. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 21:30, August 28, 2023 (EDT)
 
:I would say 1. Change it immediately after it's apparent the name change is permanent.
:Some examples:
:*Peach was originally called "Princess Toadstool" outside of Japan until permanently changed in Super Mario 64
:*Marth was translated as "Mars" in the Fire Emblem anime before his international debut in Melee
:*Toon Link was first named that in Brawl before any Zelda game
:*Steve had no established name before being officially named Steve, being named "Steve?" and "Mr. Minecraft" before --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 22:44, August 28, 2023 (EDT)
 
:I aired this out before it was posted, but '''1) is the clearest, most consistent, and most intuitive point'''. As Meester pointed out, there are many examples of character names changing in ways that are extremely notable. In cases where this would happen today, it would be mandatory to change the name no matter what to maintain SEO. While we do use fan terms for advanced techniques, these pale in comparison to official names for characters, which are plastered all over the world; while, say, umeki is a Japan-exclusive term from a very specific piece of Brawl material, compared to [[tech]]. There is an etymological difference here that is extremely notable - tech was a term made in absence of umeki, which never asserted itself. I think only changing when a Smash release occurs is arbitrary, lacks future-proofing, and if it were solely for the sake of representing material as it exists in Smash, you can solve that with a redirect. Smash itself can become outdated or inaccurate in representing characters - see how Ganondorf represents an outright unreleased version of the character, Bowser is based on a child's interpretation of the NES version, and Roy has a completely different personality to his home games. There has to be a consistent line here when you're handling a page meant to discuss the character as it exists in its own media. Otherwise, what are they for, really? To me, I see them as gateways into outside franchises, and handy for the modern "homage to gaming history" direction the series has been taking. - [[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 00:16, August 29, 2023 (EDT)
 
== Series names ==
 
This has always sort of bothered me, but it's been minor enough that I haven't gotten around to bringing it up until now.
 
To put it simply, I think that the formatting of a series' name should be what is most applicable to grammar—more specifically, we have pages related to "Sonic '''T'''he Hedgehog", and we have links (granted, not page names proper, but still) with "DRAGON QUEST", "FATAL FURY", "KINGDOM HEARTS", and the like, and I think that those should be fixed/changed.
*For the first point, this might just be a personal thing, but I think it looks really dumb. Seeing every word capitalized in something has always bothered me, and it's no different here. I get that it's formatted like that in Ultimate, but the formatting of Sonic's series name has always been inconsistent in the series (all-caps in Brawl, and formatted as "Sonic '''t'''he Hedgehog" in Smash 4), but everyone is smart enough not to capitalize "the" in conversation because it's not a proper noun. Say what you will about Sega using all caps (they're still doing it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vW8nKbo2Y even now]), but I consider that a different beast.
*For the second point, as I was looking around the wiki, I noticed that there's literally only one template that utilizes all caps for linking purposes, and that's the {{t|Music}} template. Other templates that list the different series collectively—{{t|Spirit list}}, {{t|Sticker list}}, and {{t|Trophy list}}—don't use all-caps for the series that do in the music template, and I think that's really inconsistent, especially since stickers were only in Brawl, the only game to capitalize the Sonic the Hedgehog name in reference to the series in all instances (Smash 4 does it in its sound test, but that's the exception and not the example). I do, however, think that there should be two exceptions to this: ARMS, which is capitalized in all instances and not just series formatting, and R.O.B., which is a proper acronym.
**That being said, an argument could be made to where things are consistent ''and'' capitalized names are kept capitalized for linking purposes; I personally disagree with that mindset, but it still exists as a consistency-related option.
In line with both of these changes, I think the following, or something akin to it, should be put into the manual of style:
:"''Universe names are to match conversation-level formatting and ignore any in-game capitalization, barring any direct quoting of in-game text.''"
This ensures that the actual in-game text referring to games/series (including instances of "Sonic The Hedgehog" and "DRAGON QUEST") are kept where they should be, like spirit names or tips, but are also made much easier for linking purposes and ensure people don't get tripped up by linking to a non-existent "Sonic '''t'''he Hedgehog" page. This also aligns with our stances on [[SW:OFFICIAL|not being official]], as well as matching the already existing policies on this very page about both proper nouns and community-level terms. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Gamer'''</span>]] 12:19, October 9, 2024 (EDT)
 
'''Support'''. We already skip the all-caps brand formatting for legibility reasons; no reason to keep an awkward "The" where it can be easily sidestepped. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:44, October 9, 2024 (EDT)

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