Editing SmashWiki talk:Manual of Style

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== Disambiguation pages ==

How are disambiguation pages supposed to be handled? Are the entries supposed to be ordered '''alphabetically''' or in terms of '''relevancy/commonness/"most-likely search term"'''? Thanks in advance for the help. [[User:Fenyx4|Fenyx4]] ([[User talk:Fenyx4|talk]]) 21:50, 18 November 2015 (EST)
:Judging by [[Cloud (disambiguation)|this]], I'd say relevance. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 21:56, 18 November 2015 (EST)
:Relevance, definitely. The Cloud disambig and [[Zero (disambiguation)]] are good examples of this. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:47, 18 November 2015 (EST)
::Okay; thanks for the replies and clarification. Yeah, I was trying to use the [[Cloud]] disambiguation page as a gauge (along with [[Thunder]] and [[Counter]]), although due to how recently the Cloud page was made, I was somewhat hesitant about adhering to it. [[User:Fenyx4|Fenyx4]] ([[User talk:Fenyx4|talk]]) 23:29, 18 November 2015 (EST)

== Formatting of music titles ==

How are the titles of musical compositions/"songs" supposed to be formatted?  I have seen italics used in quite a few areas, although I thought that the standard was using quotation marks ("") ([http://writersrelief.com/blog/2008/03/properly-format-your-titles-underlines-italics-and-quotes/ first source], [https://thewritepractice.com/song-album-titles/ second source]) for song titles? Wikipedia also advocates [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Titles#Quotation_marks the usage of quotation marks] for song titles and instrumental compositions. Instrumental compositions seem to vary somewhat, although songs with vocals seem to follow the "quotation mark" guideline, although I'm not sure what SmashWiki should use overall.. Thanks in advance for the help. [[User:Fenyx4|Fenyx4]] ([[User talk:Fenyx4|talk]]) 23:29, 18 November 2015 (EST)
:I'd strongly encourage italics. That's what's used pretty much everywhere under the current system. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Comic Sans MS;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 01:16, 19 November 2015 (EST)

== SSB4? ==

I think this article should clear up whether or not SSB4 is an acceptable shortening of Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and Nintendo 3DS. It clearly states that SSBB is not acceptable, but that SSB and the like are. Many articles currently use SSB4, so it should be made known if this is okay or should be fixed. [[User:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:red">Scizor</span>]][[User_talk:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:gray">Steelix</span>]] 18:31, 23 January 2016 (EST)
:IMO "SSB" and "SSB4" are acceptable (and preferable) because concise, one-word shorthands like "Melee" and "Brawl" aren't available. I'm also vehemently opposed to the "Smash 64" and "Smash 4" shorthands. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 19:30, 23 January 2016 (EST)
::I don't see what's wrong with Smash 64 and Smash 4 (or, at least what's more wrong with them than SSB or SSB4). It's a little more consistent at least. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  19:43, 23 January 2016 (EST)
:::Soooo, should someone add that to the page? Or should we wait for a general consensus? Since it's a guideline page, I'm not exactly sure of the rules behind editing it. [[User:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:red">Scizor</span>]][[User_talk:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:gray">Steelix</span>]] 19:45, 23 January 2016 (EST)
::::Yeah, I would say that could be added without too much hassle. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:18, 23 January 2016 (EST)

== phantom hit ==

phantom hit is used much more often then glancing blow [[User:Nintendofan1653|<font color="red">'''Nintendofan1653'''</font>]] ''([[User talk:Nintendofan1653#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' EZMONEY!! 13:06, 24 January 2016 (EST)
: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iAHw6z0j074&list=PLWcsy-DPPdzx7TN9qubVpYiIGzXcNUEE9&index=47 proof] [[User:Nintendofan1653|<font color="red">'''Nintendofan1653'''</font>]] ''([[User talk:Nintendofan1653#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' EZMONEY!! 13:08, 24 January 2016 (EST)
::I don't think you understand what you changed. The page is known as [[Glancing blow]], so listing on the manual of style that it is known as [[Phantom hit]] instead of [[Glancing blow]] on the wiki is a complete lie. If you think it should be called phantom hit, you should bring it up on the talk page ''of that page'' to be moved. <small>---Preceding unsigned comment added by [[Special:MyPage|you]]. Or maybe [[User:DatNuttyKid|DatNuttyKid]].</small>  13:27, 24 January 2016 (EST)

== Gender variations and defaults ==

<strike>Sorry for bringing up so many things on this page, but since it clarifies the way the Ice Climbers should be treated, should this be the place where we specify that we refer to gender-variable characters by their default?</strike> [[User:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:red">Scizor</span>]][[User_talk:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:gray">Steelix</span>]] 21:49, 24 January 2016 (EST)
:Woops. Already there. Shows you how thouroughly I read that. [[User:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:red">Scizor</span>]][[User_talk:ScizorSteelix|<span style="color:gray">Steelix</span>]] 22:15, 24 January 2016 (EST)

Considering that certain Pokémon are gendered in descriptions and costumes, I think we should do something about it. Notably, starting in Gen IV, all male Pikachus have a tail ending in a flat edge, while the females have a notched end; this would mean that the Pikachu seen in Brawl through Ultimate is male, while two of Pikachu's costumes in the latter are exclusively female (Celene's hat and Pikachu Libre).  Greninja is also referred to with male pronouns in materials for Ultimate.  Most of Pichu's outfits in Ultimate are unisex-based, but the Notch-eared outfit is exclusively female based on the entry in Heart Gold and Soul Silver.--[[User:Tailikku|Tailikku]] ([[User talk:Tailikku|talk]]) 22:18, 2 November 2018 (EDT)

Since there are so many male/female options now, and the game acknowledges it by talking them as if they are gender neutral, I think that when talking about characters like Robin, Corrin or Inkling we should use gender neutral pronouns. --[[User:Starcrystal45|Starcrystal45]] ([[User talk:Starcrystal45|talk]]) 13:15, 12 January 2019 (EST)

== Advice on enforcement ==

<s>Since we're now enforcing use of the Manual, should we have it written somewhere saying so? I'd do it, but I'm having trouble working out where to put it. [[User:Black Vulpine|Black Vulpine]] ([[User talk:Black Vulpine|talk]]) 08:10, 14 May 2017 (EDT)</s>
:...what? We've always "enforced" this. Just because it's a guideline as opposed to a policy doesn't mean people are free to ignore it. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 10:07, 14 May 2017 (EDT)

== Should we change the default pronouns on Robin, Corrin, Inkling, etc.’s pages to gender neutral pronouns? ==

The tips in Ultimate use gender-neutral pronouns (In their series” instead of “In his series”), so I feel like we might need to change the rules on this to be consistent with what the actual games say <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] ([[User talk:184.181.102.188|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|contribs]]) 14:30, January 12, 2019</small>
:No, refer [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Inkling_%28SSBU%29&type=revision&diff=1162582&oldid=1162577 here] to why. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:39, 12 January 2019 (EST)
:Also, I should probably state that [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]], judging how my previous explanation probably wasn't the best. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:41, 12 January 2019 (EST)
::I’m aware that SmashWiki is unofficial. However, in order to be more consistent with the source material, I’d suggest changing the rules on default costumes. I use all of the default genders except Corrin anyways. I just want this to be consistent with official info[[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 14:50, 12 January 2019 (EST)

I don't think this change would provide any useful benefit. Also note that your example is very limited; the tip text itself largely avoids using pronouns for many of the reversible characters. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Resolute 15:53, 12 January 2019 (EST)
:This would provide a useful benefit: being consistent with the ingame slurce material. Even if the tips largely avoid using pronouns in general, I’d say that still counts as treating them as gender-neutral [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 21:43, 12 January 2019 (EST)
::Again, [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]]. We don't have to change something just to match up with what the game does. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:08, 12 January 2019 (EST)
::: “Prioritize using official names unless a different name is much more widely used.” (The “Do” number 3 on that page) .Pronouns count as names, as they merely just replace the name with something easier to type. Nintendo officially calls characters with gender alts “they” and “them”. While a majority of fans use specific gendered pronouns, there are cases where the alt’s pronoun is used instead. To appease both ends, I believe that the rule on referring characters as their default gender should be changed, as not only does it use official terms, it also appeases fans of the alts (such as that crazy Corrin fan who keeps showing up) <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] ([[User talk:184.181.102.188|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|contribs]]) 22:19, January 12, 2019</small>
::::Woah, at least [[SW:NPA|watch the personal attacks]]. Anyways, the Do in number 3 is a rule geared towards smash terms such as "JV5" or "4-stock" and not really names of characters. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 22:24, 12 January 2019 (EST)
:::::Alright. Maybe I misunderstood that rule. However, despite SmashWiki being unofficial, I’d still suggest changing genderswap alts to use gender-neutral pronouns to be consistent with what Nintendo says. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 05:18, 13 January 2019 (EST)
:I actually agree with the suggestion that we should use gender neutral language. It avoids ambiguity on pages like [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Corrin&curid=65399&diff=1169933&oldid=1169932 this] which are about a character not based in Smash and therefore having no default appearance to choose from, and also prevents the future problem of what to do if a character has different default appearances in different Smash games. &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 05:47, 13 January 2019 (EST)
::I'd argue that it's not really our problem if home series don't know what a character's default is, and we should just use ours. Regarding your future point, that would require a very specific circumstance of "character has no canon home series gender", "character can be either gender", and "character changes default Smash Bros. gender between games", which I don't think is likely enough to change policy now.
::Now that being said, if someone writes an article such that it doesn't ''use'' pronouns (like the SSB4/SSBU tips do), that doesn't require this policy to change at all. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Yellow 21:07, 13 January 2019 (EST)
:::Even if the fighter pages only use the default gendered variants, at least [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Corrin&curid=65399&diff=1169933&oldid=1169932 this] should be changed from “his” to “their”, as it refers to Corrin in their series, and not as a fighter. The same goes to all other non-fighter pages. 
:::Additionally, about your point about Emmets’s future point being too specific has most of those circumstances filled by half of the genderswap characters already. It’s much less specific than you think. Robin almost always used the female version for their possesed form as Grima (particularly on the trading cards). Villager uses both genders equally in everything but Smash. Lastly, Corrin actually already uses the female gender more often in lpretty much everything but smash (She was clearly the default in Warriors, and she was advertised significantly more in Heroes, to the point where she’s the on the icon for one of the chapters, and was given out for free for a brief period. She also is featured more often on the official Fire Emblem trading cards). The only crietria not filled is if any character has changed their default gender in between games. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 23:13, 13 January 2019 (EST)
::::I'm making the assumption that the "changes between games" criteria is by far the least likely to occur. I'm also operating under the presumption that however the character appears in Smash Bros. is more important than how they appear in their home universe.
::::I should also note that I'm not against having an exception for the general character pages (for example, writing [Corrin] as gender-neutral, but writing [Corrin (SSBU)] and all other pages as SSB-default). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Le Grand Fromage 22:35, 15 January 2019 (EST)
:::::I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered? &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)
::::::I do agree that it won’t make too much sense if the universe-level is going to be gender-neutral and the fighter pages be gendered. Should we reopen discussion about this? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:36, 10 February 2019 (EST)

It’s been roughly 24 hours. Have we all come to a consensus on if the “refer to characters with multiple genders by their default costume” rule should stay or go? Personally, I’d say remove the rule, as like Emmet said, it’s more consistent with non-fighter pages, and will become less confusing in case a character changes their default gender. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:99.203.11.147|99.203.11.147]] ([[User talk:99.203.11.147|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/99.203.11.147|contribs]]) 21:01, January 13, 2019</small>
:I think we should wait a bit more, no one has responded after Emmett's point, which to be fair is a pretty valid argument. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 21:06, 13 January 2019 (EST)
:I brought this up earlier ([[Forum:General proposals#Gender-neutral writing|on the general proposals page]]) and was mostly met with opposition, but I still think going gender-neutral would be the better option. The "use the gender of the default costume" rule leads to a lot of confusion, and it wouldn't hurt the flow much to just use "they". [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 22:30, 13 January 2019 (EST)

It’s been 48 hours after the proposition was first made. I’m curious to see if we’ve reached a consensus on whether this rule should be changed. If not, how long would the consensus take? Should we just leave it up to a vote? [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 22:59, 14 January 2019 (EST)
:From what I have gathered:
:'''Support''': IP 184.181.102.188/Lou Cena, 99.203.11.147, Emmett, DryKirby
:'''Oppose''': Aidan, Toomai (?), Trainer Alex, SeanWheeler
:'''Neutral''': Me
:I'd say there's a consensus, but don't take my word for it. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:09, 15 January 2019 (EST)
::Why do you all seem so desperate to push this through as soon as possible? This is a relatively major change that needs weeks to discuss from more than 6-7 people, not days. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 22:26, 15 January 2019 (EST)
:::It’s actually a relatively simple change, which is why I’m scratching my head at it taking so long. Attempting to not break the rules, I actually edited the SSBU pages for Corrin, Inkling, Robin, Villager, and Wii Fit trainer to not contain pronouns at all (aside from the World of Light section, where I specifically state the default one). You can actually check out [[Corrin (SSBU)]], [[Inkling (SSBU)]], [[Robin (SSBU)]], [[Villager (SSBU)]], and [[Wii Fit Trainer (SSBU)]] to see if they look like the rule should be lifted or banned. Or heck, just replace the rule with a suggestion to avoid using pronouns at all, just like a all of the tips outside of the “In Their Series” section. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] ([[User talk:184.181.102.188|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|contribs]]) 00:59, January 16, 2019</small>
::::I wouldn't support a rule removing all pronouns entirely. When used properly they greatly improve the flow of sentences. That said, while I think it's a simple change in terms of the complexity, it's also not a particularly urgent or important one, so I don't overly see the harm in waiting until discussion has progressed further. &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)
:::To respond to Toomai, I was mainly just tallying up the consensus, since IP had asked whether we had one or not. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 13:47, 16 January 2019 (EST)

I would like to add another point that might be lame or old-fashioned but I feel should be considered. Many style guides for formal writing continue to discourage or outright ban the singular "they". We shouldn't blindly follow this, but we do try to keep the wiki reasonably formal, and I am of the opinion that the singular "they" feels clunky and hard to grasp in the wiki context. Allow it as optional? Fine. Mandate its usage? No thanks. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Loony 23:20, 22 January 2019 (EST)
:I think that’s a good compromise actually. Allow the usage of both default-gender pronouns and gender-neutral pronouns, but don’t mandate the usage of either. To help keep the consistency, would suggesting to avaoid pronouns ad much as possible work, but allow either gender-neutral or default-gender when neccessary? [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 02:49, 23 January 2019 (EST)
::I'm feeling a rule something like this:
:::'''''Some fighters have no defined gender in their home series and change gender in some of their Smash Bros. alternate costumes (such as Robin and Inkling). When discussing these characters in the context of their home series, it is acceptable to refer to them with gender-neutral language. When discussing these characters as Smash Bros. fighters, it is preferred to use the gender of the default costume. In either case, omitting pronouns entirely is a valid style. Do not make edits simply to change one to the other.'''''
::[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 19:42, 23 January 2019 (EST)
::::That’s perfect actually. The last part could probably be worded a little better to sound a bit less threatening (“Making edits simply to change pronouns is heavily discouraged”). Otherwise, I think this is a perfect compromise. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 00:37, 24 January 2019 (EST)

Should I move Toomai’s suggestion rule over to the general proposals thread, or should I wait until my other proposal has a consensus? I’m the IP who made this suggestion by the way. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:58, 6 February 2019 (EST)
:What “other proposal” are you referring to? &ndash; [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 04:41, 7 February 2019 (EST)
::Currently, I have a proposal for major alternae costumes (such as Wario, Ike, Cloud, Isabelle, Plant Bayonetta, and the aforementioned genderswaps) to be placed in the main imagebox instead of the gallery. It’s kind of related to this one, but I’m not sure if we’re allowed multiple proposals at once. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 12:06, 7 February 2019 (EST)

So is there a consensus here to change? [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 14:28, 9 February 2019 (EST)
:Right now, me and Toomai agreed that removing pronouns entirely is a valid practice. Other than that, nobody else has come by to really give thwir opinion in weeks sadly. I remember that the admin [[Emmet]] was in support of hanging it to gender-neutral, and another user and another IP agreed on using gender-neutral pronouns. I’d say here is, but last time I changed the Manual of Style page to accompdate it, I was said to be too hasty. We may have to wait.

::I don't really see any reason to change the policy regarding smasher pages at all. As far as I'm concerned the current policy works just fine, whereas gender-neutral terms like "they" tend to read rather awkwardly, and will probably just look out of place. Thus far I have not seen a single convincing argument for using gender neutral pronouns on smasher articles like Robin's that doesn't rely on breaking [[SW:NOT]], so until such an argument can be brought forward I would '''strongly oppose''' any such change in this sub-policy. Now as for the general character articles I suppose it makes more sense seeing as there isn't really a strict "default" in the home games for many of these characters, but in the context of Smash, there absolutely is. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 14:42, 9 February 2019 (EST)
:::In the context of smash, some characters with multiple genders use their default less strictly than you’d think. Corrin, for example, is female on thr classic banner and a good portion of gameplay marketing. Additionally, she’s seen on the image label depicting CPU AI. Male Corrin is primarily used on the CSS and some of the marketing depicting all of the characters together (such as the release fay banner or the panoramic) [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 14:47, 9 February 2019 (EST)
::::I don't see the classic mode banner as all that convincing. It would be like saying that since there is a trophy depicting male Wii Fit Trainer that there is no default costume for Wii Fit Trainer. Miscellanea in the game should not say anything about what the default is, since alternate costumes are also depicted on miscellanea as well. In the context of being a playable character, male Corrin is the default costume, and the fighter articles specifically deal with the character as a playable character. As I said before, gendered pronouns read better than neutral ones, and thus I firmly believe that if there is a default gender, then said gender should be used. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 14:53, 9 February 2019 (EST)
:::::The classic mode banner is admittedly weak proof that only applies to Corrin, since she’s the ONLY alt on the banner. Maybe you’re right that miscllanea shouldn’t count. But at the very least, would completely removing pronouns do it as well? That’s another suggestion being made in this thread.[[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:50, 9 February 2019 (EST)
::::::Oh definitely not, if anything sidestepping use of pronouns would make wording even more awkward, not to mention it would make editing the pages a nightmare... ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 15:58, 9 February 2019 (EST)
:::::::I can see your arguements very clearly, and I understand them. However, as said by the admin Emmet, ''I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered?'' I don’t see any particular advantage over specifically stating a character’s gender. In fact, it may deter some users who prefer playing as alternate genders (such as Corrin or Robin). At least acknowledging their existence by not focusing on default gender pronouns should alleviate that. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 02:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)
::I may be a couple weeks late, but I would like to use the pronouns of the gender of the default. The singular they just feels like political correctness gone mad and it never made sense for me to use it for a single specific person. Personally I would have preferred if Pokémon used pronouns of their likely genders instead of the dehumanizing "it" like Pikachu is a he and Jigglypuff is a she. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 21:22, 23 February 2019 (EST)
:::Actually, now that I think about it, I might extend this scope to Alph and he Koopalings, and when referring to all characters whose alts include separate individuals, we use “they”. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:28, 23 February 2019 (EST)


I’d like to make 2 more points in favour of using gender-neutral pronouns: 
1. When is the last time you’ve seen somebody use Male Corrin in competetive? I normally see female Corrin, despite her being the alternate. You can’t say that “X mains Corrin because '''his''' combo game is incredibly powerful” if ''Corrin isn’t even a “he” in that context''. 

2. Now that we have infoboxes containing both genders, it would only make sense to use gender-neutral pronouns. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:52, 23 February 2019 (EST)

== Italicizing partial series and abbreviations in titles ==

Currently the MoS only speicifies that game titles and such should be italicized in text. It doesn't say what should be done for them in article titles (using the DISPLAYTITLE feature). We should probably close this gap.

The current de facto standard appears to be that titles are italicized if the entire article title is the game/series title, or is only followed by (series) or (universe) or similar. This means titles like "List of SSBB trophies (Yoshi's Island series)" have no italics, while "''Yoshi'' (universe)" does. While I personally think this is fine, it is indeed inconsistent, and perhaps we should change it.

===Italicizing partial titles===
Should the "Yoshi's Island" in "List of SSBB trophies (Yoshi's Island series)" be italicized?
====Support====
#...
====Oppose====
#There is absolutely no point in doing this, and mixing italics and non-italics in titles looks tacky. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 14:30, June 29, 2019 (EDT)
====Neutral====
#It would make things consistent, but I think it's a lot of work for no benefit. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bess 23:37, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
#I too am not opposed to the idea, for the sake of consistency, but it would ultimately be a lot of clogging up the RC for nothing (unless we got XL to take care of it). [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:04, June 29, 2019 (EDT)
#:For the record I don't think the conversion is a bot-able task. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Incomprehensible 13:24, June 29, 2019 (EDT)
#::I didn't think so. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 13:26, June 29, 2019 (EDT)
#Eh. Okay like, I get why, but I think it bleeding into the parentheses makes it look worse. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 20:44, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
===Italicizing abbreviations===
Should the "SSBB" in "List of SSBB trophies (Yoshi's Island series)" be italicized?
====Support====
#Honestly? I don't think it looks that weird. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 20:44, June 30, 2019 (EDT)
====Oppose====
#I vehemently oppose this idea simply because I think it looks bad, especially in cases like (''SSBM'') where the letters lean into the parentheses. It would also be a lot of work with no real benefit. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bess 23:37, June 28, 2019 (EDT)
#Most of the times we use a game's shortened title, it's the shorthand name rather than the initials (i.e., "''Melee''" over "''SSBM''"), and if the pages were named such, I would be less opposed to the idea. But also having that part italicized in general (whether or not it's in a page's title) seems weird to do, and it also looks bad. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 01:04, June 29, 2019 (EDT)
#Once again, no point in doing this aside from making things look worse. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 14:30, June 29, 2019 (EDT)
====Neutral====
#...
===Comments===

== Past tense and using "would" ==

This might just be a pet peeve of mine, but I've always found the usage of the past tense "would" to be rather irksome, and can almost always be rephrased to have more direct phrasing and language. For example, on the article [[List of rumors]], there is a line that reads "Ridley would later be confirmed as a stage boss," and I believe that this should ideally be "Ridley '''was later''' confirmed as a stage boss."

I propose that we start trying to avoid using "would" as much as possible (but at the same time we don't have to aggressively correct all the "woulds" that still exist, and plan for them to eventually fade out over time. This might just be something only I really care about and if everyone else disagrees I won't really fight it, but I'm curious if you all have any strong opinions on this. '''[[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">Awesome</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">Cardinal 2000</span>]]''' 23:57, March 2, 2021 (EST)
:Yeh, that honestly seems a little bit much to me. Honestly I don’t even understand why it could be an issue. Both wordings are just as effective but neither one sounds more informal than the other. [[User:Black Vulpine|<span style="color: black;">'''Black Vulpine'''</span>]] of the [[User talk:Black Vulpine|🦊'''Furry Nation'''🐺]]. [[Special:Contributions/Black Vulpine|<span style="color: #CC5500">'''Furries make the internets go! :3'''</span>]] 00:29, March 3, 2021 (EST)
:Yeh, no. Being someone who's obsessed with perfect grammar, both terms as grammatically correct and neither sounds informal. This isn't worth the effort imo. [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omegα Toαd,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toαd Wαrrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(BUP)</font>]]''' 00:37, March 3, 2021 (EST)
:Both wordings are totally adequate. No need to change them, in my opinion. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 01:07, March 3, 2021 (EST)

==Ruling against "news report" writing==
{{proposal}}
I think there should be some kind of rule against writing pages as if they were forums or news articles. Pages should to the best of our knowledge be written now as they should look later on down the line; if you just focus on keeping it up to date, you get what happened with Vergeben's page which got several whole-ass one-liner linebreaks for ''each minor update'' (tell me the "DLC leaks" section [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Vergeben_leaks&oldid=1328193 here] does not look stupid as fuck; I get doing this the first three times or so but after that it was clearly ridiculous). This was even acknowledged as a problem with posting about rumors [[Forum:Major overhaul for "List of rumors"|in this forum discussion]] ("Rumors are treated like a play-by-play with up-to-the-minute detail."), so I get the feeling it wasn't just me. I don't know how well competitive pages have dealt with this problem if at all, though given this message in the source of MkLeo's page ("We are in no rush to adding in these sections. If you are to add something, don't just add a sentence or two as if it's a real-time report."), I can't imagine it going very well there either. I am not suggesting we ban live reporting entirely - I already know [[SmashWiki talk:What SmashWiki is not#Suggestion: SW is not live|that proposal failed]], and [[List of Director's Room Miiverse posts|there are pages that effectively function as a time capsuled news report]] - but I think it needs to be made clear that just because we have a news section does not mean this is a news site and so it should not be treated like one. I suppose this could be solved with a new section in SW:NOT saying "SmashWiki is not a news report", but my issue is moreso with articles entering somewhat of a "forum" mode just so they're up of date; I figured this'd be the best place for that. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 01:16, February 2, 2023 (EST)
:I '''support''' this idea. There are definitely cases where live reporting is necessary (even other than those you mentioned, such as the competitive scene), but at the end of the day, we're not a news source, we're a wiki. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: pink;">'''the Lovely Gamer'''</span>]] 12:23, February 2, 2023 (EST)
:"''I already know [[SmashWiki talk:What SmashWiki is not#Suggestion: SW is not live|that proposal failed]]''"

:I wouldn't say this failed, those that responded shown majority support. Seems to be one of those things where apathy took over and people just didn't care enough to push it through, nor even officially try declaring it as failed, I know I forgot about it shortly after posting about it, with it being during the time I was mostly inactive. I think the discussion about it could be revived, I still don't like people immediately updating tournament pages after every single player gets knocked out, though given a lot of the non-competitive focused editors are now inactive with it being over four years since the last game's release with no sight of a new game, and traffic in general is lessened, it is not as pressing of an issue when that concern was brought up six years ago. That said, it can still be argued to push it through anyway for future proofing.

:Regarding this, I am in agreement to not write pages as live reports, and have voiced my disapproval before in the discord server of smasher articles having history sections that are written like sloppily-made "real-time reports", that consist of just regurgitating their result at every single significant tournament. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 14:43, February 2, 2023 (EST)

== What to do if a character's home series name changes ==

It's been noticed that there's a potential hole in the MoS with regards to this point:
:''General character articles (those that focus on a character as they are outside of the Smash Bros. series) should be named according to how the character is most commonly known in their originating series.''
The question is, what happens if that "most common" name changes? As a silly example, imagine that Nintendo starts to refer to "Mario" as specifically "Super Mario". What do we do with his general character page?
# Change it immediately after it's apparent the name change is permanent
# Change it only after enough time has passed that it's actually the "most common" name
# Change it only once there's been a new Smash Bros. game since the name change
Is there a best idea here? Are there any other possibilities that make sense? No voting (yet?), just open discussion. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[File:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Awesome 21:30, August 28, 2023 (EDT)

:I would say 1. Change it immediately after it's apparent the name change is permanent.
:Some examples:
:*Peach was originally called "Princess Toadstool" outside of Japan until permanently changed in Super Mario 64
:*Marth was translated as "Mars" in the Fire Emblem anime before his international debut in Melee
:*Toon Link was first named that in Brawl before any Zelda game
:*Steve had no established name before being officially named Steve, being named "Steve?" and "Mr. Minecraft" before --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 22:44, August 28, 2023 (EDT)

:I aired this out before it was posted, but '''1) is the clearest, most consistent, and most intuitive point'''. As Meester pointed out, there are many examples of character names changing in ways that are extremely notable. In cases where this would happen today, it would be mandatory to change the name no matter what to maintain SEO. While we do use fan terms for advanced techniques, these pale in comparison to official names for characters, which are plastered all over the world; while, say, umeki is a Japan-exclusive term from a very specific piece of Brawl material, compared to [[tech]]. There is an etymological difference here that is extremely notable - tech was a term made in absence of umeki, which never asserted itself. I think only changing when a Smash release occurs is arbitrary, lacks future-proofing, and if it were solely for the sake of representing material as it exists in Smash, you can solve that with a redirect. Smash itself can become outdated or inaccurate in representing characters - see how Ganondorf represents an outright unreleased version of the character, Bowser is based on a child's interpretation of the NES version, and Roy has a completely different personality to his home games. There has to be a consistent line here when you're handling a page meant to discuss the character as it exists in its own media. Otherwise, what are they for, really? To me, I see them as gateways into outside franchises, and handy for the modern "homage to gaming history" direction the series has been taking. - [[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]][[User:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">'''Plague'''</span>]][[User talk:Plague von Karma|<span style="color: #4952eb;">''' von Karma'''</span>]][[File:PlagueSigImage.png|20px]] 00:16, August 29, 2023 (EDT)

== Series names ==

This has always sort of bothered me, but it's been minor enough that I haven't gotten around to bringing it up until now.

To put it simply, I think that the formatting of a series' name should be what is most applicable to grammar—more specifically, we have pages related to "Sonic '''T'''he Hedgehog", and we have links (granted, not page names proper, but still) with "DRAGON QUEST", "FATAL FURY", "KINGDOM HEARTS", and the like, and I think that those should be fixed/changed.
*For the first point, this might just be a personal thing, but I think it looks really dumb. Seeing every word capitalized in something has always bothered me, and it's no different here. I get that it's formatted like that in Ultimate, but the formatting of Sonic's series name has always been inconsistent in the series (all-caps in Brawl, and formatted as "Sonic '''t'''he Hedgehog" in Smash 4), but everyone is smart enough not to capitalize "the" in conversation because it's not a proper noun. Say what you will about Sega using all caps (they're still doing it [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g8vW8nKbo2Y even now]), but I consider that a different beast.
*For the second point, as I was looking around the wiki, I noticed that there's literally only one template that utilizes all caps for linking purposes, and that's the {{t|Music}} template. Other templates that list the different series collectively—{{t|Spirit list}}, {{t|Sticker list}}, and {{t|Trophy list}}—don't use all-caps for the series that do in the music template, and I think that's really inconsistent, especially since stickers were only in Brawl, the only game to capitalize the Sonic the Hedgehog name in reference to the series in all instances (Smash 4 does it in its sound test, but that's the exception and not the example). I do, however, think that there should be two exceptions to this: ARMS, which is capitalized in all instances and not just series formatting, and R.O.B., which is a proper acronym.
**That being said, an argument could be made to where things are consistent ''and'' capitalized names are kept capitalized for linking purposes; I personally disagree with that mindset, but it still exists as a consistency-related option.
In line with both of these changes, I think the following, or something akin to it, should be put into the manual of style:
:"''Universe names are to match conversation-level formatting and ignore any in-game capitalization, barring any direct quoting of in-game text.''"
This ensures that the actual in-game text referring to games/series (including instances of "Sonic The Hedgehog" and "DRAGON QUEST") are kept where they should be, like spirit names or tips, but are also made much easier for linking purposes and ensure people don't get tripped up by linking to a non-existent "Sonic '''t'''he Hedgehog" page. This also aligns with our stances on [[SW:OFFICIAL|not being official]], as well as matching the already existing policies on this very page about both proper nouns and community-level terms. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Gamer'''</span>]] 12:19, October 9, 2024 (EDT)

'''Support'''. We already skip the all-caps brand formatting for legibility reasons; no reason to keep an awkward "The" where it can be easily sidestepped. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 14:44, October 9, 2024 (EDT)
:Bumping this. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: black;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange">'''the Spooky Gamer'''</span>]] 16:16, October 14, 2024 (EDT)
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