Editing SmashWiki talk:Cleanup of the Notable Players sections

==More characters who I believe should have a limit of 15==

''Smash 64'': Fox

''Melee'': Jigglypuff, Ice Climbers

''Brawl'': Marth, Falco, Diddy Kong, Snake

''SSB4'': Mario, Fox, Sheik, Mewtwo, Diddy Kong, Zero Suit Samus, Sonic, Rosalina, Ryu

''Ultimate'': Mario, Yoshi, Fox, Pikachu, Peach/Daisy, Mr. Game and Watch, Roy, Pichu, Zero Suit Samus, Pokémon Trainer, Wario, R.O.B., Snake, Wolf, Greninja, Palutena, Mega Man, Lucina, Inkling, Joker ('''Edit:''' Ness, Diddy Kong, Cloud, Steve)

<span style="font-family:Formata Regular">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 03:35, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

:I definitely agree with Wolf, even cookies in the doc said when it reaches around 15 it gets really rough. PT probably makes sense too consider the amount of top players mains. Not sure about the others didn't really think about them yet. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 03:38, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:Please don't write just a bunch of names at once, and focus on one case at a time with a well-reasoned argument for why. Also before suggesting any Ult characters, be mindful that the game only has a bit over a year of offline competitive history and then a year and half of online history, there's little actual history for these characters and you're likely setting your standards way too low if you think those characters should have more than ten players. For example, all those characters suggested don't even have more than a handful of players maining them on the last PGR, like are you going to really tell me Pikachu should have more than ten players when Esam was the only Pikachu player on the last PGR? If you can't name more than ten legitimate top players of a character, it's a definite no-go. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 03:44, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:I would say a definite no to most of these except maybe 64 Fox, Brawl Snake and SSB4 Diddy (but I am not a 64 or Brawl expert so I am only basing this on a gut feeling that could be wrong). You should keep in mind that playerbase size does not directly correlate with tier standing, a textbook example of this would be Jigglypuff in Melee, which despite its tier ranking of #3 only has Hungrybox and Mango as truly notable top level representatives on an historical level. I am echoing OmegaTyrant on Ultimate, none of these characters deserve to have their list expanded yet, we can have this discussion again at the end of the game's life span or if, god forbid, a DLC character becomes absurdly dominant on the level of Cloud and Bayonetta in SSB4. --[[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 04:07, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
::I considered those three, but when taking a preliminary look at their already existing sections, 64 Fox and Smash 4 Diddy do not appear to have more than ten players that are too indispensable to not mention. Then I was certain I was going to automatically approve Brawl Snake before this, since he was the definite #2 in playerbase after MK, but then I took a look at his current list that has just 13 players, with a few I would for sure take off that would bring it to 10, so he is a no-go unless it's demonstrated how there's more Brawl Snake players not already on there that absolutely need to be mentioned. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 04:20, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
::(Edit conflict) The thing that you guys missing is that Ultimate is bigger than ever like it has bigger tournaments than any other games. *sigh Thanks to Ultimate many rather unknown scenes get to have much bigger tournaments and recognition that probably other games won't get to have. The high level play gets much tenser than before as there are just so much talent in this game. Some characters get to deserve a more detailed description on their history because they are able to dominate multiple regions of the game. A character like Wolf would be a perfect example, Wolf has a significantly bigger impact than a lot of characters due to how many players are able to dominate their regions with the characters. It feels like Ultimate his a big history despite it actual lifespan isn't that long yet. Of course the roster is way bigger than other games too. Multiple characters/regions get to shine in competitive play. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 04:26, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:::You keep harping on about Wolf, but can you even name ten legitimate top-level Wolf mains with at least a year of established history with him and whose Wolf exploits will still for sure be "historically significant" in a couple more years? The first PGR had just Zackray for legitimate Wolf Mains, then four more on the X-Factor survey. Then the second PGR didn't have any Wolf mains, while Zackray's Wolf usage decreased significantly in that time, and just two more on the X-Factor survey. Again, you are very likely setting your standards too low, these sections are not just for listing "every pretty good player with the character and every top player who played a few matches with them", which is what made these sections such a mess in the first place. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 04:38, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

:Echoing OT here, it's way too early to decide who gets to have an expanded section for Ult (the game doesn't even have an official tier list yet). Unless there's an obvious candidate, what we should do is at least wait until all DLC is released before deciding who gets more than 10 players. Like, how does Pikachu deserve 15 players when Esam is currently the only one pushing him? [[File:Toad.png|20px]] '''[[User:Omega Toad|<font color="deepskyblue">Omega Toad,</font>]] [[User talk:Omega Toad|<font color="blue">the Toad Warrior.</font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Omega Toad|<font color="#7B5BEE">(I'm the best!)</font>]]''' 04:46, July 16, 2021 (EDT)

I do see where NPM is coming from for Wolf. Whittling him down to 10 players has been a rather difficult task since he's one of the most used characters in the game, not to mention there are many players ranked on a national scale that do use Wolf (for example, 6 players in Europe's top 50 and 7 players in Mexico's top 50 have Wolf mains/secondaries). I also do see where OT is coming from: most of these results are only within the first year of competitive ''Ultimate'', which means it's possible for many of them to fall out of the spotlight within the next few years (not to mention how some of them, such as Ogey, have stopped using the character). I think it comes down to the difficulty it is for me, NPM, and others who worked on the document to ignore the good results that we have right now when considering how these results would hold in 2 or 3 more years, and that's the most apparent with Wolf. 

Other than that, I don't think any of the other characters listed here should have anything beyond 10, especially when just considering those ranked nationally. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:20, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
:Speaking of players, OT how would you consider the 15 players we have listed for Wolf on [https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jFNNkEpS5CpC1wE4Sjghpk8n5g5oeGmxXxrQEYzf-4k/edit#gid=0 this document]? The ones from Charliedaking to Zackray. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 13:29, July 16, 2021 (EDT)
::He wouldn't like it. He will force Wolf to be limited to 10 and we don't have a solid argument against that either. They also complained about Zackray being formerly only in the consideration part of the list. (which idk how that happened) Tbh, it is awkward/tough or whatever u want to call it to make a historical players section for this game as the competitive scene isnt that long yet and got interrupted by the pandemic that split into the online era. I can see how the other games can have this since most of them either had a long history or were basically dead. But ''Ultimate'' is still fairly young a few DLC chars are still young and the worldwide event has completely messed up the game, moreso than ''Melee'' because of the nature of ''Ultimate'' online. What I wanted to say is that the playerbase for this game is exceptionally huge and the big roster, tournaments lead to more players being able to perform well at a top level. A history section doesn't even feel that great to have as ''Ultimate'' barely has a huge history compares to other games. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 03:35, July 18, 2021 (EDT)
:::I feel like you're taking OT's statements a bit too personally. While he's been rather adamant on keeping Wolf to 10, on the other hand none of us have really provided much of an argument aside from "''Ultimate'' has a large playerbase" and stuff like that. That's why I asked him which players in the list does he think would work, both to see what his opinions are and to see whether it's enough to persuade him to expand the section. 
:::Furthermore, I don't really see how the pandemic splitting the eras have to do with much since we're taking both offline and online into account. Yes, the pandemic cut stuff short, but on the other hand there's no use in wondering what would happen if the pandemic didn't exist. The reality is that the pandemic stopped offline play for a year, and as a result, we have to take into account the changes that happened because of it, and not what would have happened had offline continued as normal. The pandemic didn't "mess up" the scene; the scene simply went in a different direction than expected. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:17, July 18, 2021 (EDT)

Now that 1) updates have been done for a year, 2) Ultimate is just one day from surpassing Smash 4's competitive lifespan counting only Wii U, and 3) offline tournaments have not only been the norm longer than online ones, but have lasted longer than they did pre-COVID, I think we can revive this issue. (Fun fact: Ultimate Palutena has recently surpassed Melee Fox as the character with the most tournament results on this Wiki [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Palutena_(SSBU)&namespace=102&limit=1300], [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Special:WhatLinksHere/Fox_(SSBM)&namespace=102&limit=1300].) As for Smash 4, if two DLC characters can have more players, I think it's only fair that an initial-release character gets the same treatment. <span style="font-family:Formata Regular">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 20:25, December 21, 2022 (EST)
:The problem for ''Ultimate'' right now is that these sections, while "done" for a year, are still rather outdated/not completely cleaned out. Many sections still have players that are only notable at a regional level, or at least had a couple of good appearances nationally. {{SSBU|Robin}} is an egregious example of this. It currently sits at the max amount of possible players in these sections, yet out of the players on this list, the only players that I believe should definitely stay are Angel (strong results online plus some good results and wins offline), Jul (best Robin pre-pandemic), Ke-ya (one of the best Robins pre-pandemic), and Synergy (imo the current best Robin). That's 6 that I'd consider we should look at and/or clean out, and with Robin being a relatively unpopular character throughout ''Ultimate''{{'}}s competitive lifespan, there's no reason for this section to be at the max amount of players. Palutena itself still needs some players who debatably could be removed (eg Compact and marisa) while the only player that I think has an argument to be added into the section is Chase. At least for ''Ultimate'', there really is not a strong case for any of these sections to have a limit over 10. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 21:25, December 21, 2022 (EST)
::Nice, but what about my other points? <span style="font-family:Formata Regular">[[User:RickTommy|<span style="color:red">Rick</span>]][[User talk:RickTommy|<span style="color:green">Tommy</span>]]</span> 20:57, December 22, 2022 (EST)
:::I don't really have many opinions on it, other than I still don't think anything should be extended unless we really need to. Diddy Kong currently sits at 9 and Sheik sits at 10, and from what I can tell these are all their most relevant players throughout ''Smash 4''{{'}}s history, as they were ranked on the PGR 100. Unless we agree that there are more players that should be added to these sections, I don't see a need to expand it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 03:58, December 23, 2022 (EST)

:Revive what issue? If you're going to suggest any character getting a limit increase, as I said before to you, you need to focus on a single character at a time and provide damn good reasoning why. "Look this character gets linked to more on the wiki!" and "two Smash 4 DLC characters got an increased limit, why not a base game character?!" are not legitimate points. For example, if you're going to claim Ult Palutena should have an increased limit, explain how there are more than ten Palutena players that are too important to her competitive history to not mention, specifically listing the players out and explaining why each of them are that important. If you can't make convincing arguments for why more than ten specific players belong for any character, then they don't need an increased limit. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 04:17, January 22, 2023 (EST)

== Recommendation on historically significant players (Yoshi)  ==

Hello everyone

I'm pretty new to this Wiki discussion thing so I'm not entirely sure if this is the right place but I read that there is a 10 Player limit on the new notable player section and by that there are still 2 spots left in the Yoshi player page so I wanted to recommend two players as a part of the Yoshi community.

For the first spot I want to recommend Myles as he is an outstanding player who does overwhelmingly well after covid, beating many well known players like Mr.E, John Numbers, Mr. L, Sinji, Gen, LingLing, Suarez, quidd and many more.

For the second spot I feel kinda awkward saying this but I'd like to recommend me, "Yakumo09" as the second European representation in it. After Yikarurs ban, I am mostly considered to be the best Yoshi in Germany and one of the best in Europe. My page doesn't look promising because many tournaments are missing and it's also not updated on recent events so I'm going to mention a couple of offline wins that aren't listed like: 
Meutrich (x2), Sillintor (#6 Germany before) Sansi, Yetey (#25 Europe) and recently a win over quiK (#2 Europe) and Jaka, the best Swiss player and best Isabelle in Europe. From the above mentioned wins, the only one that you probably can't find (since the tourney isn't on Smashwiki) is the Yetey one but I can provide a smash gg link if needed. 

In terms of tournament placings there has only been one case where I didn't place in 1 digit and I entered many events! My most recent tourney, Datev Prelude #5 run is probably the most significant one, getting 2nd/126 over many top players in Germany/Europe

I think that another European representation might be cool to see so I hope that most of the people here agree to both of the recommendations. (And most importantly I hope that I found the right talkpage lol)

[[User:Yakumo09|Yakumo09]] ([[User talk:Yakumo09|talk]]) 23:10, August 24, 2021 (EDT)
:First, I think it's better to have these sections on their respective character page, since it is about the character. Second, be aware below is just my take on the two players, and other editors are more likely to have different opinions.
:Myles is a player that I think most of us agreed upon, but were to hesitant to add. He's been a pretty outstanding Yoshi player, being ranked 9th on the most recent New England PR and is most notable in the online metagame, being ranked on all but 1 iteration of the WWR, including v5. What I was hesitant on, however, is that he has yet to perform well at a national tournament, with his only national result being 193rd at Let's Make Big Moves. National results are pretty important when determining notability in the long run, especially for characters in an ongoing metagame. That being said, I have no doubt Myles would eventually reach that, and his performance during the online season was pretty good as well so I'm not against adding Myles to the section.
:As for you, you are a very good player on a regional level, especially with how you performed at PGR tournaments. However, again the main issue is national results, which you unfortunately do not have. I have no doubt, however, that you'll see great placements at nationals as well, and once you start seeing those results I'd say you would be fine.
:I really hope this doesn't come off as discouraging. Unfortunately, not every player with good results can be listed in these sections, and while we do have a 10-player limit, it shouldn't be filled if there aren't any remaining that fit the criteria. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 23:33, August 24, 2021 (EDT)
:I will agree with Cookie in that I would encourage these posts to be on the character talk pages so more of the community can be involved. Gives more opportunity for community consensus and discussion. Yoshi is tricky in general because there's just a lot of really good players. We had considered 7-8 other yoshis (beyond what's currnently listed) as well. Because of that it really made sense to stick to players that have national results (by this wikis standards, I realize there are different definitions on what constitutes a national). [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 23:54, August 24, 2021 (EDT)

I understand, I didn't know where to post that on the Yoshi site oof. I thought that the criteria might have been enough since buddies like Raphy made it in their section with K.Rool for example. It's absolutely not discouraging, imma just keep playing! 
Should I delete the "thread" then or? 
[[User:Yakumo09|Yakumo09]] ([[User talk:Yakumo09|talk]]) 04:37, August 25, 2021 (EDT)
:Posts on wiki talk pages aren't to be deleted, and even if people didn't agree this post is still helpful, giving editors players to keep an eye on for adjustments in the future. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:00, August 25, 2021 (EDT)

Since the only problem was the attendence and performance of national tournaments, do you think my 33rd place at the second largest european event (close to Albion 4), Temple Hermes (863 Players) with wins over PeW, Xetroz and Gin might be enough if we add it up with the other mentioned tourneys?
You guys pushed me up to perform very well this weekend lol
[[User:Yakumo09|Yakumo09]] ([[User talk:Yakumo09|talk]]) 11:14, September 6, 2021 (EDT)
:I still think we should wait more because it’s still just one national result, but I’m definitely less opposed than before, since 33rd at what’s effectively an S-tier is pretty good. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 10:02, September 6, 2021 (EDT)
To be honest I think it is historically significant getting 33rd at an S-Tier while also performing extremely good at C-Tiers and even having wins on top European players. If you compare it with the criterias that Bluesky got to get in (before Temple) it might even be slightly more impressive and there are a handful of Yoshi players who agree with me. I'd like to hear what the other staff members think about it, if they agree I'll just keep grinding up I guess xD [[User:Yakumo09|Yakumo09]] ([[User talk:Yakumo09|talk]]) 01:31, September 8, 2021 (GMT+1)
:I dont really have any strong opposition to inclusion but would like to see more people's opinions than just the three of us. We dont have Squerk or Raptor on the list currently even though they have some good national results (particularly Squerk). As to Raphy, King K. Rool doesn't have particularly good results as a character, especially in comparison to Yoshi. So its a little easier to meet the threshold of "historically significant." With Yoshi, I wouldn't be suprised if half of the list is different by the end of Ultimates lifespan.  Whereas, I doubt King K. Rool's list will be all that much different.  [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 12:55, September 8, 2021 (EDT)
I'll agree with your statement Wiifitkid. But we could honestly cut out Bluesky and add Squerk + Raptor if results are the only criteria needed since they got way more and better results than us just by simply living in a continent with lots of big tourneys and notable players. It's obvious that Japan and NA will show stronger results since europe doesn't have super sized events thats often + not so many top players like in the US. That's why I argumented with "more europe representation" in my first message. If we already talk about slots we could just simply add more slots to more popular characters but I think that has been a discussion here already lol [[User:Yakumo09|Yakumo09]] ([[User talk:Yakumo09|talk]]) 14:50, September 9, 2021 (GMT+1)

== Charizard, Squirtle, and Ivysaur Ultimate sections? ==

Should Pokemon Trainer's pokemon be given their own competitive sections? Unlike Pyra and Mythra, these three have completely unique movesets and can stand on their own without transforming into each other. Do any notable competitive players use just one pokemon throughout the match? I personally know somebody who mains solo Charizard, but it could be difficult to properly say whether somebody mains one Pokemon or the Trainer. Perhaps just make the templates about their viability and forego having a notable players section for them? [[Special:Contributions/157.242.208.75|157.242.208.75]] 01:23, November 30, 2021 (EST)

There is no serious "solozard", or "solosquirtle"/"solosaur" player at high or top level, it's just not a viable playstyle, period (you are barring yourself from two thirds of your legitimately available moveset because...?).

Pyra and Mythra only have "their own" sections (which are identical since a template is used) because there is no master character standing in the background (such as Rex) that could have it. 

Their competitive usage as part of the trio is already extensively covered on the previous sections (Attributes, Changes from, Update history), so I see another section about individual competitive viability, even without listing players, as vastly unnecessary since again these three characters do not function as individuals at top level. [[User:Rdrfc|Rdrfc]] ([[User talk:Rdrfc|talk]]) 03:05, November 30, 2021 (EST)

== Sora ==

He was revealed on October 5, and it's April 4 today. Should he be getting a competitive section soon, if not tomorrow, since he's been out for six months? Or is the fact that February is shorter than the other months going to make the date his competitive section goes up April 6-7? [[Special:Contributions/68.4.176.97|68.4.176.97]] 23:36, April 4, 2022 (EDT)

:It is supposed to be 6 months after Sora's release, which is on April 18th. [[File:Grand Dad.png|23x20px]] [[User:NaughtyPigMario|<span style="color: red;">'''NPM'''</span>]]  [[User talk:NaughtyPigMario|''<span style="color: blue;">Morr!?</span>'']] [[File:NaughtyPigBoi.jpg|23x20px]] 00:06, April 5, 2022 (EDT)
::Since the 18th is tomorrow, will the competitive section be added to Sora's page tomorrow (as in, is it prepared and drafted)? [[Special:Contributions/68.4.176.97|68.4.176.97]] 19:30, April 17, 2022 (EDT)
:::I don't believe the section has been prepared yet. I do know there aren't any consensus Sora players to list, so no player will be listed in the section. But the rest of the competitive section will have to be completed. [[User:Wiifitkid|Wiifitkid]] ([[User talk:Wiifitkid|talk]]) 19:33, April 17, 2022 (EDT)
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