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| Anyways, I suggest that we implement "bans" on here. Basically, unlike a block, where the user is forbidden from editing anything, (except for their talk page if enabled) bans allow users to continue editing...except for the pages that they clearly should not be editing due to the disruption that they cause. When applying a ban, one basically selects the category that the user should not be permitted to edit for the set duration. You can also choose a number of random pages that aren't all in the same category to ban the user from, and can even ban them from ''one individual page'' if it's the main source of their disruptiveness without having to fully protect it and possibly disrupt the work of other editors; (especially useful for troublesome users who have it out for one specific page and not (so much) others). The way I see it is like the differing views in the "Probation vs. Block" debate that happened years ago. Blocking users for over-editing their userpages would be too harsh, as it prohibits the users from making any constructive edits that they may want to make, but probating them enables them to do this, but it just prevents them from editing the pages that lead to them getting in trouble...just like with banning them, except that these can be applied to almost any situation. | | Anyways, I suggest that we implement "bans" on here. Basically, unlike a block, where the user is forbidden from editing anything, (except for their talk page if enabled) bans allow users to continue editing...except for the pages that they clearly should not be editing due to the disruption that they cause. When applying a ban, one basically selects the category that the user should not be permitted to edit for the set duration. You can also choose a number of random pages that aren't all in the same category to ban the user from, and can even ban them from ''one individual page'' if it's the main source of their disruptiveness without having to fully protect it and possibly disrupt the work of other editors; (especially useful for troublesome users who have it out for one specific page and not (so much) others). The way I see it is like the differing views in the "Probation vs. Block" debate that happened years ago. Blocking users for over-editing their userpages would be too harsh, as it prohibits the users from making any constructive edits that they may want to make, but probating them enables them to do this, but it just prevents them from editing the pages that lead to them getting in trouble...just like with banning them, except that these can be applied to almost any situation. |
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| But it's not just restrictions from editing certain content. Bans can also be applied to users who share rivalries on the wiki. Basically, when this type of ban is applied, the user who is punished is not allowed to edit the userpage or talk page of the user that they are having frequent problems with, revert any edits made by that user, reply to them in discussions, or even mention their name anywhere on the wiki, (whether it be directly or indirectly). Now obviously, this type of ban should be used sparingly as it has the possibility of interfering with constructive behavior. That's basically the gist of it, and for an even better explanation than I could ever hope to provide, you can check [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Banning policy|here]]. | | But it's not just restrictions from editing certain content. Bans can also be applied to users who share rivalries on the wiki. Basically, when this type of ban is applied, the user who is punished is not allowed to edit the userpage or talk page of the user that they are having frequent problems with, revert any edits made by that user, reply to them in discussions, or even mention their name anywhere on the wiki, (whether it be directly or indirectly). Now obviously, this type of ban should be used sparingly as it has the possibility of interfering with constructive behavior. That's basically the gist of it, and for even better explanation than I could ever hope to provide, you can check [[wikipedia:Wikipedia:Banning policy|here]]. |
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| (And as a note to readers: Yes, I know that I would need to personally talk to Porple about implementing this, but I figured it would be better to get community consensus first without clogging his talk page). '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User talk:MeatBall104|La li lu le lo!]] 18:56, 27 January 2015 (EST) | | (And as a note to readers: Yes, I know that I would need to personally talk to Porple about implementing this, but I figured it would be better to get community consensus first without clogging his talk page). '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User talk:MeatBall104|La li lu le lo!]] 18:56, 27 January 2015 (EST) |
| :How would this be any different from just telling a user to stop being disruptive, and blocking them if they refuse? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Brazen 19:19, 27 January 2015 (EST)
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| ::Well, this method is meant for the type of disruption that stems from repeated editing to certain pages incorrectly or without the right knowledge. If they insist on continuing their subpar editing to said pages, then instead of blocking them for it, we can simply ban them from editing those certain pages for anywhere from 14 minutes (or whatever the minimum block time is) to indefinite, allowing them to continue with their less disruptive edits and contribute constructively to the Wiki. If this were any other type of offense, then yes, the method you just mentioned would be fine. I only mentioned the other types of bans (i.e. the one that forbids interaction between certain users, which admittedly I find somewhat stupid) just to show that this rule has more than one purpose that could come into play here, and those instances are certainly not the part that I'm pushing for here. The main thing I'm getting at is the part about constant editing of certain types of pages that the user shouldn't be editing due to lack of knowledge or whatever, (and somewhat, the part about using this tool as an alternative to protection, so that you can easily prevent counter-productive edit warring while still allowing the more constructive edits to that page to be made). As much as I don't like talking about others behind their backs, I guess I'll have to actually present an example now, and that would be Myth. Often times, he was called out for constantly editing Smasher pages despite not knowing enough about competitive Smash, and got blocked twice. In his case, had we implemented bans back then, we could have simply prevented him from editing those pages so he could still edit elsewhere (as to be honest, most of his non-Smasher edits were just fine if not exceptional).
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| ::In short, this is different because it allows users to still make their less disruptive edits while still preventing the cause of the disruption from happening. '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User talk:MeatBall104|La li lu le lo!]] 20:02, 27 January 2015 (EST)
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| :::You don't seem to get my point. If someone's making an article worse, we tell them to stop, and they don't, how is adding a layer of "you're banned, so seriously please choose to stop now" going to help? [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Le Grand Fromage 22:06, 27 January 2015 (EST)
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| ::::Hmm, well technically we're not telling them to "choose to stop", we're MAKING them stop. If it's just their edits to that ONE page that are causing the disruption, then that's the page we ban them from. Bans are simply a way to enforce our warnings to these users to stop editing pages that they clearly don't know what they're getting into when they edit them, though not as harsh as a full-on block. When banning them instead of blocking them, we're basically saying: "Look, you're welcome to contribute here, but your edits to X seem to be very disruptive and are getting reverted a lot. As such, either do the proper research before editing it again, or don't even touch that page at all. And if you refuse to comply, then you simply won't be allowed to edit it until you learn." In this case, we're FORCING them to stop, by not letting them make edits that cause disruption on the Wiki should they not listen to the warning, showing them that we mean business while still giving them leeway (in that the only thing they can't edit is the page that caused the disruption due to their edits to it, as opposed to a block, which restricts wiki-access in its entirety). In a way, it's basically a level of punishment between a warning and a block. If the user has common sense, they will learn from that mistake and minimize their disruptiveness. And if they don't? We'll simply dish out longer and longer bans for a while and THEN resort to blocks due to them now being considered a repeat offender.
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| ::::I honestly don't think I can explain this any better than I already have without typing out large walls of meaningless text. But to try and answer that question: It'll help because it will teach the lesson to not edit pages that one clearly doesn't understand, without needing to use the block tool. Blocks may be one of the better ways of putting up with disobedient users in terms of other behaviors, but in terms of repeatedly editing pages that the user clearly doesn't know enough about, this is a slightly better option as it helps enforce the point to not edit the page without accurate knowledge, by preventing them from editing it for a set duration should they not listen to the initial warning. Most of the users who find themselves in this type of situation are of the good-faith variety, so simply taking away their access to that one page shouldn't lead to any more chaos. Simply put, the banning system is just meant to quickly put an end to this type of disruption so that the user can learn their lesson in a softer manner. '''[[User:MeatBall104|MeatBall104;]]''' [[User talk:MeatBall104|La li lu le lo!]] 23:54, 27 January 2015 (EST)
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| :::::Despite your valiant efforts to prove that your system would be effective, you have yet to really provide an explanation as to why it is remotely necessary. If one was unable to convince a user to stop editing a certain page through word alone, I believe that it would be in the best interest of the community to continue trying to convince the offender in question to listen to reason. This is a far better pursuit than merely blocking the user from editing a certain page, as this pursuit shows how resilient the human spirit is, and how resilient we must be as well in order to convince the offender that what they are doing is simply not how things go here.
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| :::::However, I have no regard for a knight who follows blindly. An offender who repeatedly pursues the path of poor editing in the manner that you have described, despite the virtuous efforts of those around him or her to convince the offender to repent, deserves to simply be blocked, instead of banned from editing a page. '''In short, the superior objective is to persuade a criminal that their felony is wrong. If they refuse to listen to the voice of reason, we should not attempt to give them additional hopes for redemption via other pages, as it would be better off for us to block them posthaste for being stubborn and irrational rather than continue to give them meaningless chances that ultimately result in nothing of value being done by either side.''' [[Special:Contributions/108.194.146.62|108.194.146.62]] 00:23, 28 January 2015 (EST)
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| == Can we please block IPs for an infinite amount of time now? ==
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| There's absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be done,right? <span style="color:Green;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''--'''</span>[[User:Penro|<span style="color:Red; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px red">'''Pen'''</span>]][[User talk:Penro|<span style="color:Black; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px black">'''ro'''</span>]] 22:52, 11 November 2017 (EST)
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| :The reason we don't do this except for in extreme cases is that IPs naturally change. The offender could abandon their IP (maybe even without even intending to) and someone else could "move into" it, meaning we have an innocent person blocked. It's a rare case but it does happen. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 22:54, 11 November 2017 (EST)
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| ::Welp, I'm dumb. Sorry. <span style="color:Green;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''--'''</span>[[User:Penro|<span style="color:Red; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px red">'''Pen'''</span>]][[User talk:Penro|<span style="color:Black; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px black">'''ro'''</span>]] 22:55, 11 November 2017 (EST)
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