Editing Forum:Underrated/Unappreciated characters

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Lucas and Toon Link.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 04:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
Lucas and Toon Link.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 04:17, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:Lucas and Toon Link are the top used characters in North Carolina, Georgia, New York, Maine, New Jersey, and Louisiana. No Johns, Cheezperson, because you know that's a lie. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 05:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:Lucas and Toon Link are the top used characters in North Carolina, Georgia, New York, Maine, New Jersey, and Louisiana. No Johns, Cheezperson, because you know that's a lie. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 05:12, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Exactly what evidence are you using to support this claim?  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 03:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
::How was that a john?  I don't follow which states use which characters the most, as I don't care what other people use as long as the characters I use work for me.  Concerning the tier list, Lucas was ripped off.  Lucas's achilles heel is being chain-grabbed by Marth (Charizard and Squirtle too, but Marth is much more commonly used).  That turns so many people off, and it shouldn't.  I don't use Lucas a lot because I suck at recovering vertically with him.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 17:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
::How was that a john?  I don't follow which states use which characters the most, as I don't care what other people use as long as the characters I use work for me.  Concerning the tier list, Lucas was ripped off.  Lucas's achilles heel is being chain-grabbed by Marth (Charizard and Squirtle too, but Marth is much more commonly used).  That turns so many people off, and it shouldn't.  I don't use Lucas a lot because I suck at recovering vertically with him.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 17:46, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:::lol NOONE uses Squirtle or Charizard, and Lucas is fully capable of dominating both of them. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 19:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:::lol NOONE uses Squirtle or Charizard, and Lucas is fully capable of dominating both of them. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 19:47, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
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::::::::Skill > Tier placement.  Luck really only matters when you use G&W's hammer, and even using that properly requires skill.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 20:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::::Skill > Tier placement.  Luck really only matters when you use G&W's hammer, and even using that properly requires skill.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 20:54, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::The dairy product man is right. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 21:03, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::::::The dairy product man is right. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 21:03, 31 December 2008 (UTC)
:A three/four person match is very different from a one on one. Toon Link probably would not have time to use his projectiles, with the pressure of two opponents. And anyways, friendly matches usually are not affected by the tier list at all, with the exception of Meta Knight. As for an Underrated character, I would have to say the Mother boys and C. Falcon. With the advent of [Extra Inch Directional Influence|EIDI]], they should fair better against some grab-releasers (other than Marth). As for C. Falcon, he has some potential, and does not deserve to be on the bottom of the tier. Although he certainly is not top or even high tier material, he deserves to be at least on the top of the bottom tier. -''[[User:Masq|<span style="color:green">Masq</span>]]'' <small>('''[[User talk:Masq|t]]'''/''[[Special:Contributions/Masq|c]]''/'''[[Special:Editcount/Masq|e]]''')</small> 12:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
:A three/four person match is very different from a one on one. Toon Link probably would not have time to use his projectiles, with the pressure of two opponents. And anyways, friendly matches usually are not affected by the tier list at all, with the exception of Meta Knight. As for an Underrated character, I would have to say the Mother boys and C. Falcon. With the advent of [[Extra Inch Directional Influence|EIDI]], they should fair better against some grab-releasers (other than Marth). As for C. Falcon, he has some potential, and does not deserve to be on the bottom of the tier. Although he certainly is not top or even high tier material, he deserves to be at least on the top of the bottom tier. -''[[User:Masq|<span style="color:green">Masq</span>]]'' <small>('''[[User talk:Masq|t]]'''/''[[Special:Contributions/Masq|c]]''/'''[[Special:Editcount/Masq|e]]''')</small> 12:32, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
::First, you say he has a lot of potential, but then you say he's not good? And then you say he doesn't deserve to be in the bottom tier, but then you say he should be at the top of it? You're contradicting yourself. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></font> 20:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
::First, you say he has a lot of potential, but then you say he's not good? And then you say he doesn't deserve to be in the bottom tier, but then you say he should be at the top of it? You're contradicting yourself. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></font> 20:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Hmm, I didn't notice that. What I'm trying to say was that he does not deserve to be on the bottom of the tier list. I mean the very bottom, last place. He should be at least a bit higher up on the bottom tier, if not going to the middle. As for the potential sentences, I'll rephrase them. -''[[User:Masq|<span style="color:green">Masq</span>]]'' <small>('''[[User talk:Masq|t]]'''/''[[Special:Contributions/Masq|c]]''/'''[[Special:Editcount/Masq|e]]''')</small> 01:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:::Hmm, I didn't notice that. What I'm trying to say was that he does not deserve to be on the bottom of the tier list. I mean the very bottom, last place. He should be at least a bit higher up on the bottom tier, if not going to the middle. As for the potential sentences, I'll rephrase them. -''[[User:Masq|<span style="color:green">Masq</span>]]'' <small>('''[[User talk:Masq|t]]'''/''[[Special:Contributions/Masq|c]]''/'''[[Special:Editcount/Masq|e]]''')</small> 01:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
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:::::::I know but, I wasn't talking about a free-for-all. I was talking about 1 on 1 competitive play. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 02:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)  
:::::::I know but, I wasn't talking about a free-for-all. I was talking about 1 on 1 competitive play. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 02:33, 5 January 2009 (UTC)  
::::::::This is due to tiers, Unknown. You may have beaten your friend's Toon Link with your Sonic, but in a battle of two high and equally skilled people, the Toon Link player would, if his characters' tier placement is correct, win.03:24, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[[User:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">E123</font>''']][[User talk:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Black">Brawler</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">Ω</font>''']]
::::::::This is due to tiers, Unknown. You may have beaten your friend's Toon Link with your Sonic, but in a battle of two high and equally skilled people, the Toon Link player would, if his characters' tier placement is correct, win.03:24, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[[User:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">E123</font>''']][[User talk:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Black">Brawler</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">Ω</font>''']]
:::::::::I disagree entirely by repeating Cheez's statement for the third time: Skill > Tier. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC) 
:::::::::I disagree entirely by repeating Cheez's statement for the third time: Skill > Tier. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:29, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::Again, what if the two players were of equal skill? What happens then? The higher tier wins.[[User:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">E123</font>''']][[User talk:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Black">Brawler</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">Ω</font>''']] 03:32, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::Again, no. Go to youtube and watch some of Gimpy's videos, and learn. Tier does not always matter in situations like this. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 03:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::I've seen his videos. He is an outstanding Bowser and Shiek player. But what alternatives can affect a match? There are character strengths, character weaknesses, and skill. Assuming the stage is as neutral as possible(which isn't very easy to decide upon). I can't see a Ganondorf player beating a Meta Knight player if the two are prefectly matching in skill, because in a tournament environment, everything is regulated to the most miniscule differences in player advantages possible. Since Meta Knight is a beast of a character with no major weaknesses, and Ganondorf is well...Ganondorf, how can the Ganon player possibly win? Now if this were on Distant Planet and the MK player fell into the Bulblorb's mouth, I can see a victory for Ganon. The only other variables I can see in the match is something very minute in nature, such as the MK player getting something in his eye and not beng able to see the screen very well. And even then, that doen't mean he's any worse a player than his opponent. Now don't get me wrong. I agree with TR4Q. I WOULD enter a tournament with Sonic. But for my own personal interest I would like to know how two players of indifferent tier position maining can have the same advantage over the other.[[User:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">E123</font>''']][[User talk:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Black">Brawler</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">Ω</font>''']] 03:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::Then you should try and visualize it, because it's possible. Shade and I are equal in skill, and I've beaten his Bowser with my Yoshi, nao wut? You spelled 'minuscule', 'doesn't', and 'being' wrong by the way. Don't make these silly judgments anymore, mmkay? (spelled that wrong on purpose loool) <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 04:01, 5 January 2009 (UTC) 
::::::::::::::<nowiki>*</nowiki>sigh* To each his own I suppose. But I'm also a grammar freak so thanks for the corrections. If you view my opinion as wrong, don't use it to judge me please. However, I actually think that Yoshi should be higher tier than Bowser.[[User:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">E123</font>''']][[User talk:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Black">Brawler</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">Ω</font>''']] 04:08, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::Sorry. Just because Bowser is a large target doesn't mean he should be lower. He has excellent aerial game and powerful attacks, as well as a useful projectile. I didn't mean to make it seem as if I was judging you. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 04:11, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::I think King Dedede's tier listing should answer any question on bias against large characters on the "official" tier list.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 04:50, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::::::::::::::I concur with what Cheez said. Not all heavyweights are bad, in fact, most of the heaviest charactrs are at the top portions of the tier list, from Ike to Snake. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 04:54, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::Ike's low tier, but he is very commonly used.  '''[[User:Cheezperson|<span style="color:gold">Cheez</span><span style="color:red">person</span>]]''' {[[User talk:Cheezperson|<span style="color:steelblue">talk</span>]]}[[Special:Contributions/Cheezperson|<span style="color:silver">stuff</span>]]''' 05:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::::::::::::::::::I never said I thought Bowser sucked due to his heavyweight status.[[User:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">E123</font>''']][[User talk:E123Brawler|'''<font color="Black">Brawler</font>''']] [[Special:Contributions/E123Brawler|'''<font color="Red">Ω</font>''']] 06:07, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:Ike is middle tier. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 06:39, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::By looking at the tier list, you can determine who wins on some matchups, but not all of them. The tier list is made by taking in a character's tournament results, pros and cons, and their matchups. For the matchups, an average is taken on a character's matchups to see much they win, and by what margin, which results into matchups having some affect on a character's tier placement. For example, Lucas, although he is on the bottom tier, beats Dedede, who is on the top tier, because he is a superior character compared to Dedede. However, he is inferior to many other high tier characters, which results into his placement on the list (top of the bottom tier). On a final note about what BNK said, how his Yoshi beat Shade's Bowser, if their skills were exactly equal (which I doubt, but let's say anyways), then Yoshi would win, due to his matchup against bowser (60-40). So, to summarize, tier placement does not affect '''all''' matchups. -''[[User:Masq|<span style="color:green">Masq</span>]]'' <small>('''[[User talk:Masq|t]]'''/''[[Special:Contributions/Masq|c]]''/'''[[Special:Editcount/Masq|e]]''')</small> 10:55, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:::You should probably stop doubting people and actually try to fight others. Bowser '''is not''' a bad match-up for '''ever character''' just because he's the largest target in the game. Lucas does '''not''' beat Dedede, and it doesn't take much skill to beat Lucas '''with''' Dedede. What you're saying is that every "small" character in Brawl would automatically destroy a larger character, completely disregarding the tier placement. Falco, not a heavyweight, but much larger than Pikachu, is a good match-up against him. His reflector is disjointed, meaning it can reflect Pikachu's Thunder attack with ease, and that's alot of damage for Pika. Get your facts straight, dude. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 11:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
::::How am I saying that small characters beat larger characters? I was just saying something about a match between Boswer and Yoshi, and the Lucas having the advantage King Dedede example was just the first thing the popped up in my head, so I used it for an example. This was assuming that both opponents are of equal skill, so even a small advantage would lead to one player's victory. I'm not saying that smaller characters beat larger characters; Those were just examples, although the one I stated probably was not a very good one, because Lucas holds a small advantage against him (55-45). My point was not that light characters beat heavy characters, but that characters on the bottom tier are still good against some characters higher up on the list. -''[[User:Masq|<span style="color:green">Masq</span>]]'' <small>('''[[User talk:Masq|t]]'''/''[[Special:Contributions/Masq|c]]''/'''[[Special:Editcount/Masq|e]]''')</small> 14:52, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
:::::You basically just repeated the same thing over and over again, just to make your text appear long and smart. I don't think you're stupid, but over-using the same word doesn't show anyone that you're intelligent. I understand what you mean entirely, and I don't really disagree, but I'm trying to tell you that there are some heavier weighted characters that can dominate other smaller characters. Yoshi VS. Meta Knight is a prime example. Snake VS. Lucas/Ness is another. I didn't mean to sound offensive in any way, and I'm sorry if I did. <span style="border:2px outset red;background-color:black;-moz-border-radius:1px">'''[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:Blue;">Blue</span>]] [[User talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:blue">Ninjakoopa</span>]]'''</span> 16:35, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
 
The ice climbers are underapreciated. They have so much potential when they are together. They can hold two items.[[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]])
:I agree.  The Ice Climbers are capable of infinite combos, such as back throw, to down throw to back throw, etc. [[User:Y462|Y462]] <small>([[User talk:Y462|T]] • [[Special:Contributions/Y462|C]]  • [[Special:Editcount/Y462|E]] )</small> 14:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 
Lucas is definitely underappreciated. His up smash is extremely powerful. It is extremely useful, although slow. T_T <font face="calibri" size="3">[[User:SapphireKirby777|<span style="color:blue">SapphireKirby</span>]]</font>[[User Talk:SapphireKirby777|<span style="color:blue">'''777'''</span>]] 19:10, 15 January 2009 (UTC)
 
Ganondorf. Sure, most people seem to suck with him, but I think a big part of it is just not knowing how to play his unique style well. He has some notable faults, but with good timing and prediction, his ability to punish is astounding! He really is a precision character, and quite a terror if played as one. I have fond memories of leaving people dumbfounded. "Your Ganondorf is '''scary'''" [[User:Zaenos|Zaenos]] ([[User talk:Zaenos|talk]]) 08:20, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
:I think so to, mainly because Ganondorf's punishing abilities are great.  Believe it or not, I have actually beat top tier characters with Ganondorf.  [[User:Y462|Y462]] <small>([[User talk:Y462|T]] • [[Special:Contributions/Y462|C]]  • [[Special:Editcount/Y462|E]] )</small> 16:19, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
::That means nothing, if the person you played against wasn't at your same skill level. [[User:Bek The Conqueror|Bek The Conqueror]] ([[User talk:Bek The Conqueror|talk]]) 19:54, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
:::Those people were around my skill level.  [[User:Y462|Y462]] <small>([[User talk:Y462|T]] • [[Special:Contributions/Y462|C]]  • [[Special:Editcount/Y462|E]] )</small> 20:42, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

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