Editing Forum:Tier List Poll

{{Forumheader|Brawl Talk}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->

Yes, I know I did a "failed" Melee tier list poll a bit back, but this time, I want everyone to give a good, reasonable tier list. This way, this wiki would have '''its own''' tier list instead of having to base it off of SWF. If you really do want to have a reasonable tier list, make your own to vote and justify it. Finally, when the poll is done, I will average all votes and give the official SmashWiki tier list. Happy voting.

My Vote:

'''S Tier:''' Ice Climbers, Marth

'''A Tier:''' Wolf, Falco, Snake, Meta Knight, Diddy Kong, Pikachu, ZSS, Wario

'''A- Tier:''' Lucario, Fox, King Dedede, Toon Link, Olimar, Captain Falcon, Ike

'''B Tier:''' Peach, Link/Pit, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, Luigi

'''B- Tier:''' Mario, Sonic, Sheik, Zelda/Sheik, Pokemon Trainer, Lucas

'''C Tier:''' Bowser, Ganondorf

'''D Tier:''' Samus, Zelda, Donkey Kong, Yoshi, Kirby

'''F Tier:''' ROB, Jigglypuff

==The problem with all this==
We base our tier list off the SWF tier list because it's made by guys who actually know their shit when it comes to the competitive scene. A tier list created by the Wiki with a majority of users who haven't even gone to a major tournament will be incredibly inaccurate and filled with bias towards skill gate characters. You have yet to show any sign of competitive presence, making your claims far less valid than the SWF's. In addition, not placing Meta Knight above the rest of the cast or second at the very least increases the dubious nature of how much you know about smash. Good day sir. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px]] 23:10, 17 November 2013 (EST)
:Ice Climbers being in 1st is actually debatable, and some pros argue that they're better than MK in practice. The rest of this list is false and looks more like a competency chart than anything else, with horribly dubious placements (Meta Knight should be first, or tied with Ice Climbers as I said before; Wolf gets hard countered by a majority of top tier matchups, most notably Pikachu, and suffers from meteor smashes so much that they might as well all be spikes on him; Zelda/Sheik should be above Sheik, not below (otherwise what's the point of having a Zelda/Sheik character?), you put Link again in the middle/high tiers despite even dedicated professionals showing that at the top level, Link will not place well, and Kirby has been improved from ''Melee'' and deserves a much higher spot.) SmashWiki does not need their "own" tier list as most members are not as knowledgeable as the members of the ''Melee'' or ''Brawl'' back rooms. If we were to have a poll and claim the tier list as accurate based off of user contributions, we would most likely get one legitimate list based off of actual tournament results and hard technical data, and ten submissions that are essentially competency charts, placing characters like Ganondorf at the very top because the user happens to be "good" with them in level 9 CPU matchups. We serve to document information accepted by the entire Smash community, which does not include an obscure gut feeling "tier list" that has little to no tournament backing. --[[User:Timson622222|Timson622222]] ([[User talk:Timson622222|talk]]) 23:31, 17 November 2013 (EST)
::I concur. Meta Knight should at the very least be second place. And what is Ganondorf doing in C tier?! If you read my user page you'll see that I'm very proficient with Ganondorf in a tournament against pros Ganondorf doesn't stand a chance. I'm not insulting your competitive knowledge but have you ever been in a tournament. I must agree with MegaTron, their shouldn't even be a tier list created by SmashWiki. Half of the users have very poor competitive knowledge especially compared to SWF. [[User:FireMario1534|FireMario1534]] ([[User talk:FireMario1534|talk]]) 00:30, 18 November 2013 (EST)
:::I disagree, however. Ganondorf is the hardest to master character in Brawl, thus having the illusion of being terrible. However, if you can perform various techniques, like Flight of Ganon, Quick Warlock Reverse and various others, Ganondorf can be better than some of the other cast; aka his placement on the Japanese tier list being higher than the US. The main reason I am doing this is because a public tier list has more truth to it than one that has restricted votes. Of course, you don't really have to reply to this. Ganondorf, even in my C Tier, however, is still pretty damn low. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 07:23, 18 November 2013 (EST)
::::Although the Ice Climbers' placement on this list can be sort of reasonable in a way (since they dominate most of the cast with their zero-to-death chain grabs), the Meta Knight placing is still very illegible however. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="darkorange">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:MewtwoMS.png]] The Portal 16:24, 18 November 2013 (EST)
:::::I see where you are going. However, Brawl is still fresh, in a sense, so it may take a longer while to actually know more about the game. Now, onto other characters; what about ROB or King Dedede for example, any opinions? [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 19:34, 18 November 2013 (EST)
::::::Pretty ok with King Dedede's position, but I don't think R.O.B. should be really low on the list. [[User:Dots|<font color="red">'''D'''</font><font color="darkorange">'''o'''</font><font color="blue">'''t'''</font><font color="purple">'''s'''</font>]] ([[User talk:Dots|talk]]) [[File:MewtwoMS.png]] The Republic 20:04, 18 November 2013 (EST)

::::::"Brawl is still fresh"? I'm sorry, that observation proves you don't know what you're talking about. Brawl has been out for five and a half years now and the hacking/modding community has dissected it to death. It is extremely unlikely there's anything truly new to discover. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] El Pollo 20:14, 18 November 2013 (EST)
:::::::I said, "In a sense", Toomai; not that I mean it's actually fresh. And on the ROB position, Dots, I have to say that he ''somewhat'' deserves it, mostly because of terrible specials, the only "good" ones being neutral and down specials, the most predictable recovery and very low range attacks. However, I have to say, though, that he does have some good traits, like his meteor smash adding some boost, great horizontal MC, good recovery distance (should he not be hit or blown away) a reflecting attack and decent range. Now, onto other characters; opinions? Also, I have noticed that if you point the control backwards before your neutral special, you can perform some neutral specials (Warlock Punch, for example) backwards; what is it called? [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 21:47, 18 November 2013 (EST)

Ok, this is just some blatantly incorrect information;

"''mostly because of terrible specials, the only "good" ones being neutral and down specials''

R.O.B.'s neutral and down specials are some of the best projectiles in the game, that alone that makes his special moveset much better than the majority of that cast. Additionally, while his up special has barely any practical application outside recovery, it's one of the best recovery moves in the game, and that's certainly enough to make it a "good special". Yeah his forward special is bad, but one bad special doesn't make you a candidate for worst character in the game.

"''the most predictable recovery''"

Uh what? Do you realise R.O.B. has almost complete control where his recovery takes him? Sure you'll know he'll use Robo Burner, but that doesn't matter when you need to read what he does with his recovery, where R.O.B. can do all sorts of shit with it and retains the ability to do anything out of it bar other specials and air dodge. Just try edge-guarding a good R.O.B., and see how "predictable" it is. Players don't recover like CPUs do.

"''very low range attacks''"

This alone is enough to show you know nothing about R.O.B. You do realise R.O.B. has some of the best average reach in the game? All of R.O.B.'s tilts have reach that is on par with Marth's attacks, especially his really fast f-tilt, which is one of the best ground spacers in Brawl. The same applies to the reach of the rest of his attacks, especially his neutral aerial, with the only attack of his having truly poor reach for its class being his f-smash. Actually do some testing with the characters, and see him outreach the majority of the cast.

"''like his meteor smash adding some boost''"

The "boost" from his down aerial is completely negligible and will do nothing but make it extra safe to meteor smash, which doesn't matter since it's near unusable anyway and R.O.B. has the recovery to easily recover from it regardless.

"''great horizontal MC''"

Now you say a flaw of his is a strength? Read the [[momentum cancelling]] page; R.O.B. has some of the worst horizontal (and vertical) momentum cancelling in Brawl, gaining barely any benefit from it, resulting in his endurance being noticeable worse for a character of his weight. It's no way "great", and is one of R.O.B.'s most significant flaws.

"''good recovery distance''"

It's more than good, only MK, Jigglypuff, Pit, and Peach (only horizontally for her) get greater recovery distance than R.O.B., R.O.B. will be able to recover from anything and multiple edge-guarding blows with ease. Even though Robo Burner can "run out", it takes some extraordinary edge-guarding or a really dumb R.O.B. to actually have it run out during recovery.

"''''a reflecting attack and decent range'''''"

Ok, so now you contradict yourself. Earlier you said his forward special was bad, and now you're going to bring it up as a strength? And more blatantly, you said earlier R.O.B. had "''very low range attacks''", and now you're going to say he has decent range?

You quite clearly do not know a damn thing about R.O.B.; you got his flaws wrong, you got his strengths wrong, and you can't even remain consistent on what is a strength or flaw. Stop talking about R.O.B.'s abilities, you're making a tremendous fool of yourself. 

Also, in what "sense" is Brawl in any way "fresh"? The game is five and a half years old, as Toomai pointed out it has been hacked completely to and back with about everything to know about the game being known, the game's tournament numbers are in significant decline, and '''Smash 4 is coming out within the next year'''. Seriously, how is Brawl in anyway a "fresh game"? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:22, 19 November 2013 (EST)
	You aren't logged in. While it's not a requirement to create an account, doing so makes it a lot easier to keep track of your edits and a lot harder to confuse you with someone else. If you edit without being logged in, your IP address will be recorded in the page's edit history.
	Log in	Create account
@@ Line 21: / Line 21: @@
 '''F Tier:''' ROB, Jigglypuff
-'''In light of recent events, I will NOT be doing this tier list. I am sorry for any inaccurate placements.'''
 ==The problem with all this==
 We base our tier list off the SWF tier list because it's made by guys who actually know their shit when it comes to the competitive scene. A tier list created by the Wiki with a majority of users who haven't even gone to a major tournament will be incredibly inaccurate and filled with bias towards skill gate characters. You have yet to show any sign of competitive presence, making your claims far less valid than the SWF's. In addition, not placing Meta Knight above the rest of the cast or second at the very least increases the dubious nature of how much you know about smash. Good day sir. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px]] 23:10, 17 November 2013 (EST)
@@ Line 38: / Line 37: @@
 "''mostly because of terrible specials, the only "good" ones being neutral and down specials''
-R.O.B.'s neutral and down specials are some of the best projectiles in the game, that alone that makes his special moveset much better than the majority of the cast. Additionally, while his up special has barely any practical application outside recovery, it's one of the best recovery moves in the game, and that's certainly enough to make it a "good special". Yeah his forward special is bad, but one bad special doesn't make you anywhere near a candidate for worst character in the game.
+R.O.B.'s neutral and down specials are some of the best projectiles in the game, that alone that makes his special moveset much better than the majority of that cast. Additionally, while his up special has barely any practical application outside recovery, it's one of the best recovery moves in the game, and that's certainly enough to make it a "good special". Yeah his forward special is bad, but one bad special doesn't make you a candidate for worst character in the game.
 "''the most predictable recovery''"
@@ Line 54: / Line 53: @@
 "''great horizontal MC''"
-Now you say a flaw of his is a strength? Read the [[momentum cancelling]] page; R.O.B. has some of the worst horizontal (and vertical) momentum cancelling in Brawl, gaining barely any benefit from it, resulting in his endurance being noticeably worse for a character of his weight. It's no way "great", and is one of R.O.B.'s most significant flaws.
+Now you say a flaw of his is a strength? Read the [[momentum cancelling]] page; R.O.B. has some of the worst horizontal (and vertical) momentum cancelling in Brawl, gaining barely any benefit from it, resulting in his endurance being noticeable worse for a character of his weight. It's no way "great", and is one of R.O.B.'s most significant flaws.
 "''good recovery distance''"
@@ Line 66: / Line 65: @@
 You quite clearly do not know a damn thing about R.O.B.; you got his flaws wrong, you got his strengths wrong, and you can't even remain consistent on what is a strength or flaw. Stop talking about R.O.B.'s abilities, you're making a tremendous fool of yourself.
-Also, in what "sense" is Brawl in any way "fresh"? The game is five and a half years old, as Toomai pointed out it has been hacked completely to and back with about everything to know about the game being known, the game's tournament numbers are in significant decline, and '''Smash 4 is coming out within the next year'''. Seriously, how is Brawl in any way a "fresh game"? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:22, 19 November 2013 (EST)
+Also, in what "sense" is Brawl in any way "fresh"? The game is five and a half years old, as Toomai pointed out it has been hacked completely to and back with about everything to know about the game being known, the game's tournament numbers are in significant decline, and '''Smash 4 is coming out within the next year'''. Seriously, how is Brawl in anyway a "fresh game"? <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 02:22, 19 November 2013 (EST)
-:Sorry. I should have known about some flaws in my statement earlier. Perhaps I may need to take notes of your statements for my SSBB In-Depth, as they make more sense than what I may say. Now, onto the character tiers, Link, Pit, Ike and Falco. But before that, please answer my question; What is the technique called when you point the control stick backwards '''before''' you hit the Special button; it instantly turns your character around and does a neutral special instead of a side special, what is it? [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 16:53, 19 November 2013 (EST)
-::Please note that this tier list will '''not''' be used in a serious manner by the Wiki. <span style="font-family:Forte">[[User:Megatron1|<span style="color:maroon">Mega</span>]][[User talk:Megatron1|<span style="color:silver">Tron1</span>]][[User:Megatron1/Laughology|<span style="color:blue">XD</span>]]</span>[[File:Decepticon.png|19px]] 20:01, 19 November 2013 (EST)
-:::Of course. I understand. But please, answer my question from earlier; I do need to know what it is. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 22:47, 19 November 2013 (EST)
-::::It's called a B reversal. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 03:06, 20 November 2013 (EST)
-:::::Oh. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 07:36, 20 November 2013 (EST)
Insert common text
Signature	~~~~
Symbols	£ ¥ ° ± × ÷ € ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥
Diacritics	À Á Â Ã Ä Å Æ Ç È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï Ð Ñ Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö Ø Œ Ù Ú Û Ü Ý Þ ß à á â ã ä å æ ç è é ê ë ì í î ï ð ñ ò ó ô õ ö ø œ ù ú û ü ý þ ÿ
Wikitext	[] [[]] \| [[Category:]] [[File:]] #REDIRECT: [[]] {\| \|- \|\| \|}
Templates	{{cleanup}} {{image}} {{reflist}} {{stub}} {{d}} {{delete}}
Formatting	<!----> <br> <code></code> <gallery></gallery> <nowiki></nowiki> <ref></ref> <references/> {{#widget:YouTube\|id=}}
Substitution	<includeonly></includeonly> <noinclude></noinclude>