Editing Forum:The Tier List

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Please discuss your opinions on the Brawl Tier list.

{{Template:BrawlTiers}}
:Nice job on the archive, SK. Anyway, the list still looks quite ugly to me. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 19:48, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
::CH archived, not me, I just put first post(besides header and and archive box).'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:Red">Smore</span><span style="color: Green">King</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:blue">Hap</span><span style="color:silver">py</span> <span style="color:black">Holidays!</span>]]''' 19:57, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:::Anyone who thinks that Toon Link is that low has never watched this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olL1UobnAnY&feature=related
::::Yeah, and anybody who thinks Captain Falcon is low has never seen [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPxFCsrWtKc&feature=related this]. The point is, most, if not all, characters can have a combo video if somebody's good with them, but they'll still be low tier if not enough people are good with them.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:Red">Smore</span><span style="color: Green">King</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:blue">Hap</span><span style="color:silver">py</span> <span style="color:black">Holidays!</span>]]''' 20:50, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

The Point is, all characters can be good with the right player and playstyle(Spam knee's ftw). - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 21:11, 30 November 2008 (UTC)
:That's an argument. For me, tier lists shouldn't exist for the same reason. However, characters have always been subjected to be noted, that's the human nature. ^^ [[User:Metalink187|Metalink187]] ([[User talk:Metalink187|talk]]) 15:17, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
::I suggest you guys enter a high-level tournament sometime. It's rigorous. You feel a visceral tug of difficulty and of intensity that is absent in casual smash with friends. If your games at home and the combo videos you watch are about ''possibilities'', then top tournaments are about ''limitations'', because your matches are so tough you need particular resources just to survive. You need precise technique and quick thinking. You also need a character that can provide you with the tools you need. It doesn't need to be Meta Knight or even a top tier character, but there's a clear difference between a better character and a worse character once you actually feel the tug of difficulty and are forced to make the ''best'' decisions in battle, not merely passable ones. <font face="centaur">&ndash; [[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] <sup>([[User talk:MaskedMarth|t]] [[Special:Contributions/MaskedMarth|c]])</sup></font> 17:09, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
:::What? [[User:Masterman|<font color="red">Mas</font><font color="Black">ter</font><font color="Blue">man</font>]] [[User talk: Masterman|<font color="Green">What's the matter?</font>]]  [[Special:Contributions/Masterman|<font color="Brown">Scared?</font>]] 18:04, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Exactly, which is why it irritates me whenever someone says a characters is trash without proper evidence. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 21:46, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::Jeez, MaskedMarth, quite passionate, aren't we? - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:purple">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:black">'''Talk'''</span>]]</sup></small></font> 22:33, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::He's quite passionate, and he's quite right.  I've watched the combo videos you've referenced, and they don't prove anything about the ultimate ranking of the character.  Someone can go on a run and show some interesting and potentially good moves with any character.  That proves nothing.  What proves something is when those people enter tournaments and win.  I've [[User:Semicolon/Treatise on the Existence of Tiers|made all these arguments before]].  The only thing I'll add here is that Shadow Claw and Chain Lightning both showed good Mewtwo and Pichu play, respectively, yet no one used those to say that Mewtwo and Pichu didn't suck.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 06:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Then why do people commonly refer to [[Shined Blind]] in order to prove Fox's skill, even though combo vids prove nothing? - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:red">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:green">'''(Happy Holidays!)'''</span>]]</small></font> 20:21, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
: They're wrong (do people still do that? I thought the whole Shined Blind craze ended 2 years ago). It's silly to look at combo videos to judge a character anyways, because the whole point of a combo video is to show the impressive stuff that character can do. A combo video can make Mewtwo look good. No, it's smarter to look at actual matches and tournament results. Watching something like [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynjeIlBAIGM Cactuar vs. Darkrain] shows Fox's dominance much better than any combo video could. <font face="centaur">&ndash; [[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] <sup>([[User talk:MaskedMarth|t]] [[Special:Contributions/MaskedMarth|c]])</sup></font> 20:47, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
::But combo vids are made by cropping the flashy stuff out of actual matches, aren't they? Or are they simply staged? - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:red">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:green">'''(Happy Holidays!)'''</span>]]</small></font> 00:58, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Usually there is some amount of actual match footage, but most of it is staged.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 04:01, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
::::That's not the case for Melee combo videos to my knowledge. At least not the better ones like the old Punch Crew vids, DBR, You Must Recover, the Kizzu video, etc.  <font face="centaur">&ndash; [[User:MaskedMarth|MaskedMarth]] <sup>([[User talk:MaskedMarth|t]] [[Special:Contributions/MaskedMarth|c]])</sup></font> 08:11, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

==Uhh==
I think the forum died.'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:Red">Smore</span><span style="color: Green">King</span>]] [[User Talk:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:blue">Hap</span><span style="color:silver">py</span> <span style="color:black">Holidays!</span>]]''' 02:56, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
:Yeah, but watch us reviving this forum about how it died. [[User:Fried beef1|<font color="firebrick">Fried</font><font color="forestgreen">beef</font><font color="goldenrod">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:amethyst"><span style="font-size: 60%">Ho ho ho!</span></span>]] 02:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
::It's probably cause the tier list sucks!!!!!!!!!!!!!! XD LULZ [[User:Masterman|<font color=red>Mas</font><font color=green>ter</font><font color=gray>man</font>]] [[User talk:Masterman|<font color=silver>Happy</font> <font color=gold>Holidays!</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Masterman|<font color=blue>!</font>]] 02:59, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Oh sure, blame the list. In my opinion, G&W should b e lower and Pokemon trainer should be higher. [[User:Solar flute|Solar flute]] ([[User talk:Solar flute|talk]])
::You only say that because you don't use the characters, nor do you examine their meta game. Mr. Game & Watch is hard to use. So what? R.O.B. is too, but does that mean anything? No. Sorry, but I must disagree. <font face="Elephant">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:red">Koopa Claus</span>]]</font><font face="Elephant"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Happy Holidays</span>]]</sup></small></font> 01:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
::::75% of it is rong! [[User:Masterman|<font color=red>Mas</font><font color=green>ter</font><font color=gray>man</font>]] [[User talk:Masterman|<font color=silver>Happy</font> <font color=gold>Holidays!</font>]][[Special:Contributions/Masterman|<font color=cyan>!</font>]] 01:20, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure there's a lot that could be said about this, but I'm not going to be all nit-picky since it was a rushed job (or so I've heard, correct me if I'm wrong).  One thing I will point out, though, is why is Falco top-tier while Fox is middle?  I used to love Falco in Melee, but I find that Fox is an all-together better character in Brawl.--[[User:Meta-K|Meta-K]] ([[User talk:Meta-K|talk]]) 01:27, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:Remember: where there's smoke... now seriously, Remember: this is the FIRST Brawl tier list. The meta game is still at the beginning. There will be many changes. The same happened with the Melee list. The first versions, for instance, had Mario at high tier. Now he is low-mid tier. It's just a matter of time. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 03:29, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
::I know Mario will move to the middle section and Sheik will move to the high section. C. Falcon will also rise, as he has much potential. <font face="Elephant">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:red">Koopa Claus</span>]]</font><font face="Elephant"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Happy Holidays</span>]]</sup></small></font> 03:35, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
:::I agree with BNK. - <font face="times new roman">[[User:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:red">'''GalaxiaD'''</span>]]</font><font face="times new roman"> <small>[[User Talk:GalaxiaD|<span style="color:green">'''(Happy Holidays!)'''</span>]]</small></font> 23:08, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
::::And almost certainly, there will be a bottom tier. Jigglypuff, Ganondorf and, probably, Link will fit there. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 00:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
::Link will rise to middle tier as well. He has plenty of techniques and killing power, ppl are just obsessed with Toon Link. <font face="Elephant">[[User:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:red">Koopa Claus</span>]]</font><font face="Elephant"> <small><sup>[[User Talk:Blue Ninjakoopa|<span style="color:green">Happy Holidays</span>]]</sup></small></font> 00:47, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Tires don exits! <span style="color:steelblue">[[User:Alex25|I'm Alex25, King of Randomness!]] [[User talk:Alex25|Say Hi to me!]] [[Special:Contributions/Alex25|Random stuff,]] [[Special:Editcount/Alex25|Mah boi!]]</span> 00:51, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
:This sentence is getting old... [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 01:03, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

== Weight ==

I am interested in knowing why it is considered a ''disadvatage'' when a character is light weight, but an ''advantage'' when a character is heavy.  I constantly read/hear that Jigglypuff ''sucks'' because Jigglypuff is the lightest character in [[SSBB]], or that a ''disadvantage'' of Jigglypuff is being light weight. [[User:Y462|Y462]] <small>([[User talk:Y462|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Y462|Contributions]] )</small> 01:53, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
:Most of it deals with knockback.  Characters that are lighter are subject to more knockback and thus are easier to KO.  Heavier characters are generally more resilient to attacks and can sustain more beatings before being KOed.  This is something of an oversimplification, but I hope it gives you the gist of the argument.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 01:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
::Wow, that was fast.  Anyways, the reason you listed is the one I read/hear consantly.  I still wonder why people fail to realise the ''advantages'' and ''disadvantages'' of being in a certain weight class.  I thought being heavy generally meant being ''easier'' to combo than a light weight character, but at the same time however, that meant being more resistant to star KO's. [[User:Y462|Y462]] <small>([[User talk:Y462|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Y462|Contributions]] )</small> 02:04, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
:::Falling speed is more of the judge on the ability to combo a character.  While the two are often strongly and positively correlated, it is technically the falling speed that you're citing.  [[User:Clarinet Hawk|Clarinet Hawk]] <small>([[User talk:Clarinet Hawk|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Clarinet Hawk|contributions]])</small> 02:10, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
::Being heavy is undoubtedly an advantage. Falling speed can work as an advantage or disadvantage. In Melee, for instance, Fox's fast falling speed made him vulnerable to chain grabs and combos. That's why Jigglypuff had an advantage over him (see [[Space Animal Slayer]]). In Brawl, falling speed mostly messes up with recoveries, since combos are hard to do. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 02:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
:::In the original, it was a bigger advantage to be heavy than light.  From my own observations, since there's no chain grabs in SSB, heavyweights get a bigger advantage than lightweights, but not tall people.  Tall people do NOT have an advantage over short guys.  Short and heavy is the way to go.  Like having a Kirby, but he's a movable statue.  That's my opinion.  Short and heavy.  Short and heavy. '''[[User:Fried beef1|<font color="firebrick">Fried</font><font color="forestgreen">beef</font><font color="goldenrod">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:amethyst"><span style="font-size: 60%">Ho ho ho!</span></span>]]''' 02:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
::::Big size, big hitboxes. In other words, easier to hit. Size can be a disadvantage. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 02:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
:::::Exactly.  Short and heavy. Short and heavy. (that's my new motto now!) '''[[User:Fried beef1|<font color="firebrick">Fried</font><font color="forestgreen">beef</font><font color="goldenrod">1</font>]] [[User talk:Fried beef1|<span style="color:amethyst"><span style="font-size: 60%">Ho ho ho!</span></span>]]''' 03:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
::::::Short and heavy = Wario. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 18:12, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Jigglypuff sucks because although she has great recovery, she is the lightest character and doesn't have a good vertical recovery move, unlike Kirby, who is a bit heavier and holds a horizontal and vertical recovery move. Some characters, like Meta Knight, Pit, and Charizard have an extreme advantage due to the fact that the gliding can be controlled. Charizard, being a heavyweight, has a huge advantage. As for Xeze's post above, yes size is an advantage and a disadvantage. A very good player will need to choose characters AND strategies that match the event. For instance, if you ar e in a short stage, you could use a character whose heavy to stay on the stage or you could use a character who is agile and/or can recover well. A good smasher needs to realize that every character has an advantage and disadvantage. If you have any comments, I'm cool with it. For know, I'll post some advantages and disadvantages (if you want to, feel free to cut, copy, paste, delete, etc. to any of my comments).

Mario: Mario is a very well balanced character who has a lot of good moves. This is his advantage. His disadvantage can become severe, though. If a character uses a character-specific advantage (like Kirby's recovery, Sonic's speed, or Ganon's power), then a Mario main will have trouble.

This is the first of the 39(?) character summaries. o_o 

<span style="color:blue"> '''[[User:SapphireKirby777|SapphireKirby777]] ([[User talk:SapphireKirby777|talk]]) 19:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)''' </span>
:I agree. For example, in the Mario vs Lucario match up, Lucario's specific advantage, his aura proprieties, are a huge problem for Mario. Mario has good and strong moves (specially his smashes) but he cannot achieve a KO below 120% (more or less), because his cape edgeguard won't work well against Lucario (because Lucario is floaty and can Wall Cling). On the other hand, Lucario's power increases with the damage he takes and at 120% his attacks are fearsome. He can rank up damage quickly on Mario and finish him off with either Side Special or forward throw. Mario has a hard time against him. [[User:Xeze|Xeze]] ([[User talk:Xeze|talk]]) 19:42, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

== New Tier List. ==

Discuss. - [[User:Hatake91|Hatake91]] ([[User talk:Hatake91|talk]]) 22:12, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Jigglypuff went down, not happy.  Ice climbers went down, not happy.  Falco went up, happy.  Wolf went down, not happy. [[User:Y462|Y462]] <small>([[User talk:Y462|T]] • [[Special:Contributions/Y462|C]]  • [[Special:Editcount/Y462|E]] )</small> 22:17, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

[[Forum:The Tier List, version 2|Different forum]].'''[[User:Smorekingxg456|<span style="color:#5F9EA0">Smoreking</span>]]<small><sup>[[User Talk:Smorekingxg456#Top|<span style="color:#00FF00">(T)</span>]]</sup></small><small><sub> [[Special:Contributions/Smorekingxg456|(c)]]</sub></small>''' 15:24, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
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