Editing Forum:Removing matchups from character pages

{{Forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ -->
All of our character pages for ''Smash 64'', ''Melee'', and ''Brawl'' feature the relevant character's matchup data, based on the various matchup tables we have on this Wiki.

While these tables may have been more useful back when I first started editing back in 2011, I have to question their relevance to today's character articles. ''Smash 64'' and ''Melee'' notably  have very out-of-date matchup tables, being 6 and 7 years old, respectively, and both their metagames have long since advanced beyond what these tables display (just look at our friend {{SSBM|Yoshi}}). At this point, including them on character pages, to me at least, seems questionable; we don't list tier list data from 7 years ago, after all. I feel that including such data on our character pages is of little use today, but I also understand this is a pretty big decision, given it's affecting tens of articles. And for all I know, I could be dead wrong on how inaccurate they are. Furthermore, if we removed such data from our pages, then there exists the question of what to do with the actual pages on matchups; do we keep the old data up, with a disclaimer, or remove it?

Now, as a result of ''Brawl's'' stagnant metagame since 2013, that matchup chart isn't too much a problem, but I can't exactly verify how accurate it is today (though I could potentially bug OT or someone similar about it, I guess). If we removed the matchup data on pages for ''Smash 64'' and ''Melee'', I would keep the matchup data on ''Brawl'' pages, mostly because of the current stagnancy of ''Brawl's'' metagame. However, this does create a lack of consistency between the ''Brawl'' pages and the other pages, but hey, we already have such an inconsistency with ''Smash 4'' pages. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

Again, soliciting for input on this. Not exactly a small decision (again).

--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  20:04, 22 June 2017 (EDT)

:The matchup charts certainly have historical value and should not be removed from the wiki entirely. It's obvious at this point, however, that they are completely out of date. Even ''Brawl'''s is out of date - I think {{SSBB|Fox}} is more highly regarded than he used to be, although I could be wrong on that. Either way, I think we should warn users by adding "As of 2011/2013" to the matchup templates on the individual character pages, or remove them and add a link somewhere to the complete matchup chart. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 23:28, 22 June 2017 (EDT)

I think it's fine to remove them form character pages but keep them on their own pages. They have a large visual footprint that stands out form the rest of their section, and being so out-of-date is bad for that kind of thing when the rest of the text is a fair progression of historical to present. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 06:40, 23 June 2017 (EDT)

:Yeah, in hindsight, completely deleting the machups from their page without a disclaimer would be pretty boneheaded. Sorry about that. Still, I'm on board with removing the ''Smash 64'' and ''Melee'' charts from character pages, and I'm going to ask around for the ''Brawl'' matchups.

:--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  18:14, 23 June 2017 (EDT)

The Brawl matchups are decently accurate enough. If they were to be redone today, some of them could end up changing, like not even Esam would defend Pikachu being considered even against MK anymore, but that was a highly disputed matchup then that almost no one supported being even at its time and such disputed matchups should be noted on the individual articles anyway. Yeah Brawl's metagame didn't really advanced much after the last BBR MU chart was made, with competitive Brawl stagnating and dying out not even a year later. The only Brawl tournies nowadays are pretty much glorified side events, and as [[Revival of Brawl]] shown, Brawl can't come remotely close to carrying its own major alone. There are people who still focus on Brawl and take it seriously, but they're a very small community who play almost entirely on wifi, while the best such player, {{Sm|V115}}, still hasn't won any of the Brawl events at majors over former top Brawl players that haven't practise it extensively since Smash 4 came out nearly 3 years ago, which I think is evidence enough that these few remaining Brawl players haven't made any major advancements that would invalidate the tier list and matchup chart from four years ago.

So in conclusion, keep the MU spreads listed on each character's article, and if there is one that is largely agreed to be inaccurate (e.g. Pika v MK), then note such in the MU summary. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 16:27, 25 June 2017 (EDT)

From the above, as well as input from [[User_talk:Yellow#Brawl_matchups|Yellow]] and [[User_talk:PokemonMasterJamal3#Brawl_matchups|PokemonMasterJamal3]], it's probably safe to keep ''Brawl'' matchup information on their respective character pages, taking note of when there are disputed matchups (which don't seem to exist outside of the Pikachu-MK matchup). As for ''Smash 64'' and ''Melee'', I would support their removal from character pages, though we'll have to be careful while excising this information, as some pages do make specific references to the matchup charts outside of the matchup section, such as in the intro of {{SSBM|Kirby}}'s page.

Any opposition? I might get started on this in a few days if no one has a dissenting opinion.

--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  21:51, 25 June 2017 (EDT)
:I'd prefer to keep the Melee and 64 matchup charts, but in a historical context. Brawl is fine as is per Omega Tyrant. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 22:55, 25 June 2017 (EDT)
::...I am unsure. On one hand the charts are out of date when it comes to the metagame, but on the other hand they are up to date in that we have not had a reliable source give out this information since these versions. My knee jerk is to keep it. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 22:58, 25 June 2017 (EDT)

:::Nyargle: If we include a disclaimer for the character pages themselves about how the matchups are outdated, why bother having them there in the first place? We can include a disclaimer for historic posterity on the matchup page itself, much like our articles on old tier lists, but such a disclaimer on a character page is just silly and pointless. It's like saying, "Hey, see this information? It's here, but it's not useful, so just move along, even though it's here."

:::Serp: "No new sources" is not a good reason to keep an old source. SmashWiki should not act as a time capsule for a past point in history; it should change its scope and focus when needed. We don't use the CoSK as a resource even though no other in-depth thread like it exists since it was written, so there's no reason to keep the outdated character matchups on the pages themselves because no new matchup chart has been produced. The metagame for ''Melee'' and, presumably, ''Smash 64'' have evolved since the publication of their previous matchup charts; SmashWiki should try to present the newest information where possible to reflect the current state of the games, and these matchup charts impede this goal.

:::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  23:39, 25 June 2017 (EDT)

::::As I've said, as long as we keep the old matchup charts ''somewhere'' on the wiki (perhaps a "List of matchup charts (SSBM)" page or something), I'm fine with removing them from the character pages. The old matchup charts have historical value in the same way that old tier lists do, in my opinion. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 10:40, 26 June 2017 (EDT)

:::::I agree we should go this route, but I don't think a historical list of matchup charts is feasible, since I don't actually know how well-preserved such Smashboards topics are. Part of why we can maintain a good compilation of tier lists is because we've historically uploaded them to SmashWiki on their release, even though some of the topics have been lost. We might just have to leave them as "Character matchups" just because of this dearth of information.

:::::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  14:38, 26 June 2017 (EDT)

Bumping this for a second time. 

--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  19:15, 30 June 2017 (EDT)
::::::If there are indeed more than one version of the matchup chart, listing it would be a terrible idea. It takes up a ton of resources just for one table of them, let alone a whole list of them. My position on this is decidedly neutral. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:46, 30 June 2017 (EDT)
	You aren't logged in. While it's not a requirement to create an account, doing so makes it a lot easier to keep track of your edits and a lot harder to confuse you with someone else. If you edit without being logged in, your IP address will be recorded in the page's edit history.
	Log in	Create account
@@ Line 41: / Line 41: @@
 :::::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  14:38, 26 June 2017 (EDT)
-::::I think the assumption that only the current state of the meta is good for character pages is a questionable one. The charts reflect a distinct point in Melee history, much like how character pages have information from the customs debate era from Smash and how we describe changes in community opinion over time.  [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 20:08, 30 June 2017 (EDT)
-:::::Poor comparison. While not enormous, a number of side events still use custom movesets, making such information relevant, even if it is for a smaller audience (after all, we still refer to ''Brawl'' in the present tense, as some tournaments are still being organised for it). Furthermore, discussing the changes of community opinions over time works because we have a current reference frame; we can discuss this because we have both old and current tier lists for comparisons. Our matchup charts, however, lack a relevant, effective, and modern reference frame to open comparisons, making them dated from the get-go.
-:::::--- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  21:39, 30 June 2017 (EDT)
 Bumping this for a second time.
 --- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  19:15, 30 June 2017 (EDT)
-:If there are indeed more than one version of the matchup chart, listing it would be a terrible idea. It takes up a ton of resources just for one table of them, let alone a whole list of them. My position on this is decidedly neutral. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:46, 30 June 2017 (EDT)
+::::::If there are indeed more than one version of the matchup chart, listing it would be a terrible idea. It takes up a ton of resources just for one table of them, let alone a whole list of them. My position on this is decidedly neutral. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:46, 30 June 2017 (EDT)
-Bumping for what I hope is the final time.
---- <font face="Pristina"><font size="3">''[[User:Monsieur Crow|Monsieur]] [[User_talk:Monsieur Crow|Crow]], Author Extraordinaire''</font></font>,  01:39, 3 July 2017 (EDT)
Insert common text
Signature	~~~~
Symbols	£ ¥ ° ± × ÷ € ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥
Diacritics	À Á Â Ã Ä Å Æ Ç È É Ê Ë Ì Í Î Ï Ð Ñ Ò Ó Ô Õ Ö Ø Œ Ù Ú Û Ü Ý Þ ß à á â ã ä å æ ç è é ê ë ì í î ï ð ñ ò ó ô õ ö ø œ ù ú û ü ý þ ÿ
Wikitext	[] [[]] \| [[Category:]] [[File:]] #REDIRECT: [[]] {\| \|- \|\| \|}
Templates	{{cleanup}} {{image}} {{reflist}} {{stub}} {{d}} {{delete}}
Formatting	<!----> <br> <code></code> <gallery></gallery> <nowiki></nowiki> <ref></ref> <references/> {{#widget:YouTube\|id=}}
Substitution	<includeonly></includeonly> <noinclude></noinclude>