Editing Forum:Project M mentions
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So here's the deal. 4 years ago, [[Forum:The Project M debate|a poll was created]] to decide how much coverage Project M was going to get. It has been pointed out to me that one topic of this in particular is currently not having its consensus followed in the least: [[Forum:The Project M debate#Topic: Give Project M equal standing with the real games|TEQ]]. Consensus clearly says that PM is allowed to be mentioned in any article it would make sense in, yet we have more or less banned its mention in any non-PM related article. After a bit of research as to why that could be, I found that we never explicitly mention in any policy that this was allowed. In fact, the only mention of PM in ''any'' policy is in [[SW:NOT#SmashWiki is not official]]: "''...pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the Brawl mod Project M) will not be acceptable.''" | So here's the deal. 4 years ago, [[Forum:The Project M debate|a poll was created]] to decide how much coverage Project M was going to get. It has been pointed out to me that one topic of this in particular is currently not having its consensus followed in the least: [[Forum:The Project M debate#Topic: Give Project M equal standing with the real games|TEQ]]. Consensus clearly says that PM is allowed to be mentioned in any article it would make sense in, yet we have more or less banned its mention in any non-PM related article. After a bit of research as to why that could be, I found that we never explicitly mention in any policy that this was allowed. In fact, the only mention of PM in ''any'' policy is in [[SW:NOT#SmashWiki is not official]]: "''...pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the Brawl mod Project M) will not be acceptable.''" | ||
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#::I'm curious: what information do we lack about PM that could be added if we were to allow stuff like "Wavedashing was reimplemented in Project M" in regular articles? The character articles (should) have all the character changes and details, while the PM article (should) has everything else (and I wouldn't be opposed to adding a page for "List of stages in Project M"). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Researcher 12:59, 25 March 2017 (EDT) | #::I'm curious: what information do we lack about PM that could be added if we were to allow stuff like "Wavedashing was reimplemented in Project M" in regular articles? The character articles (should) have all the character changes and details, while the PM article (should) has everything else (and I wouldn't be opposed to adding a page for "List of stages in Project M"). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Researcher 12:59, 25 March 2017 (EDT) | ||
#:::I agree that a stage page wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it might be a good idea, since it would cut down on the over-sized ''Project M'' page we have now. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 13:58, 25 March 2017 (EDT) | #:::I agree that a stage page wouldn't be a problem. In fact, it might be a good idea, since it would cut down on the over-sized ''Project M'' page we have now. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">HUAH!</span>]]</b> 13:58, 25 March 2017 (EDT) | ||
#:::The simplest and most common example you'd find (partly because it happened to me in the past) is someone who is playing project M hears about a tech they're unfamiliar with. The immediate intuitive thing for them to do is to put the unfamiliar term in the search bar and click on its page. It isn't intuitive to figure out they need to visit the project M page and read through the giant list of changes looking for if the thing they heard about is even there. You can't really expect users to understand the wikis rules for where it's allowed to be mentioned automatically or seek it out in the wikis discussion pages. Wavedash might be too simple of an example that most people know, but Melee players are often unfamiliar with brawl tech like RAR, B-Reverse+Wavebounce, glide tossing etc. and Brawl/S4 players are unfamiliar with Boost Grabs, Ledge Dashing, various Ledgestalls, etc. Some techs are subtly different from their counterparts in the original games, in either implementation, application, or interaction with other techs. These differences would hardly require their own section, but it also means that not every PM mention on a tech page would only be a "It is also in project M." sentence. An example would look something like [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Air_dodge&type=revision&diff=944732&oldid=923597 this] for a tech where only interaction changes because it was re-implemented exactly. Complementary/additional informantion (like "Aerial glide tossing's height gain gives diminishing returns on successive use without touching the stage.") would be an example on the glide toss page. Non-tech examples of pages/mentions include the competitive ones I asked about in the comments section below, [[Stage legality]] and [[Tournament | #:::The simplest and most common example you'd find (partly because it happened to me in the past) is someone who is playing project M hears about a tech they're unfamiliar with. The immediate intuitive thing for them to do is to put the unfamiliar term in the search bar and click on its page. It isn't intuitive to figure out they need to visit the project M page and read through the giant list of changes looking for if the thing they heard about is even there. You can't really expect users to understand the wikis rules for where it's allowed to be mentioned automatically or seek it out in the wikis discussion pages. Wavedash might be too simple of an example that most people know, but Melee players are often unfamiliar with brawl tech like RAR, B-Reverse+Wavebounce, glide tossing etc. and Brawl/S4 players are unfamiliar with Boost Grabs, Ledge Dashing, various Ledgestalls, etc. Some techs are subtly different from their counterparts in the original games, in either implementation, application, or interaction with other techs. These differences would hardly require their own section, but it also means that not every PM mention on a tech page would only be a "It is also in project M." sentence. An example would look something like [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Air_dodge&type=revision&diff=944732&oldid=923597 this] for a tech where only interaction changes because it was re-implemented exactly. Complementary/additional informantion (like "Aerial glide tossing's height gain gives diminishing returns on successive use without touching the stage.") would be an example on the glide toss page. Non-tech examples of pages/mentions include the competitive ones I asked about in the comments section below, [[Stage legality]] and [[Tournament Legal]], which would help a new or unfamiliar Tournament Organizer who is looking into running PM. It would be far easier than trying to find a list of tournaments and compare/contrast their various rulesets (if they are described at all) to piece together what a standard one might look like. Serpent King mentioned that pages on purely the competitive scene are allowed to be presented equally (like tournaments and smashers) but this has been enforced haphazardly. As mentioned, a separate page or a subpage for stages would help clean up the Project M main page. It is already one of the longest, not very easy to parse, and lacking useful information that would make both of those issues worse if just added in the same way. I'm already in the process of cleaning up and better describing the special modes added. I also think a separate page to reoganize how changelogs are presented would also be beneficial. It would be easier to just create a mock-up and show it than to describe it here though. In general I think it would be beneficial if these non-competitive pages were subpages of the main project M page, in same way moveset pages are subpages of the characters. That way the main article is less cluttered but can still link to the info, the useful information is well presented and has a well preserved place, the information is easily searchable because it's a top result after typing something like Project M stages, and yet its clearly distinct as not being equal to the main games by its status as a subpage of the mod. I realize that this proposal is more about mentions alongside the main games than the mod's pages, but all the better if both are addressed. Sorry if this response was too long for how these policy discussions are supposed to be. | ||
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:Let's not forget that PM is on shaky legal grounds (enough so for its development to abrubtly cease). I'm not an expert on the subject, but it may be best to leave our mentions of it a bit dormant. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bomb 06:59, 22 March 2017 (EDT) | :Let's not forget that PM is on shaky legal grounds (enough so for its development to abrubtly cease). I'm not an expert on the subject, but it may be best to leave our mentions of it a bit dormant. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bomb 06:59, 22 March 2017 (EDT) | ||
::I think you're ignoring the cause and effect a bit here. PM sources developed outside of smashwiki because smashwiki did not accept the information. Those sources are currently in forum threads or google documents, comparitively much worse for proper archiving and present-ability. The sources are much more prone to being lost in those locations and it would benefit the community to have it on SW. I've personally used SW any time I needed to look up a character's changelog because it was presented clearly and was all in one place over multiple versions. Other sources developed and were popularized out of necessity not because they would be better. And the fact that this information is available now is a benefit to the ease of creating better archived pages. PM's perceived (not ever tested or realized) legal status is based entirely on its distribution. The only ones with anything to even potentially worry about are people sharing the files. It is irrelevant in all other contexts. [[User:Pyr0pr0|Pyr0pr0]] ([[User talk:Pyr0pr0|talk]]) 03:30, 23 March 2017 (EDT) | ::I think you're ignoring the cause and effect a bit here. PM sources developed outside of smashwiki because smashwiki did not accept the information. Those sources are currently in forum threads or google documents, comparitively much worse for proper archiving and present-ability. The sources are much more prone to being lost in those locations and it would benefit the community to have it on SW. I've personally used SW any time I needed to look up a character's changelog because it was presented clearly and was all in one place over multiple versions. Other sources developed and were popularized out of necessity not because they would be better. And the fact that this information is available now is a benefit to the ease of creating better archived pages. PM's perceived (not ever tested or realized) legal status is based entirely on its distribution. The only ones with anything to even potentially worry about are people sharing the files. It is irrelevant in all other contexts. [[User:Pyr0pr0|Pyr0pr0]] ([[User talk:Pyr0pr0|talk]]) 03:30, 23 March 2017 (EDT) | ||