Editing Forum:Project M mentions
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{{Forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content under this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ --> | {{Forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content under this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ --> | ||
{{proposal | {{proposal}} | ||
So here's the deal. 4 years ago, [[Forum:The Project M debate|a poll was created]] to decide how much coverage Project M was going to get. It has been pointed out to me that one topic of this in particular is currently not having its consensus followed in the least: [[Forum:The Project M debate#Topic: Give Project M equal standing with the real games|TEQ]]. Consensus clearly says that PM is allowed to be mentioned in any article it would make sense in, yet we have more or less banned its mention in any non-PM related article. After a bit of research as to why that could be, I found that we never explicitly mention in any policy that this was allowed. In fact, the only mention of PM in ''any'' policy is in [[SW:NOT#SmashWiki is not official]]: "''...pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the Brawl mod Project M) will not be acceptable.''" | So here's the deal. 4 years ago, [[Forum:The Project M debate|a poll was created]] to decide how much coverage Project M was going to get. It has been pointed out to me that one topic of this in particular is currently not having its consensus followed in the least: [[Forum:The Project M debate#Topic: Give Project M equal standing with the real games|TEQ]]. Consensus clearly says that PM is allowed to be mentioned in any article it would make sense in, yet we have more or less banned its mention in any non-PM related article. After a bit of research as to why that could be, I found that we never explicitly mention in any policy that this was allowed. In fact, the only mention of PM in ''any'' policy is in [[SW:NOT#SmashWiki is not official]]: "''...pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the Brawl mod Project M) will not be acceptable.''" | ||
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#I feel it's interesting to point out that, while the original decision those years ago was to allow stuff like "Wavedashing was reimplemented in Project M" into regular articles, it basically never happened, and eventually people pretty much forgot about it to the point where everyone assumed it wasn't allowed. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure no one was actively misinterpreting the decision at the time; it just ended up abandoned.) And to be honest, I think that's what's best for the wiki. It's all well and good to have rules about how much is acceptable, but it'll inevitably become fuzzy as successive editors tweak a single sentence until it splits in two and eventually turns into a whole paragraph, and then the discussion will begin as to exactly how much of what's there is too much. The current standard is pretty black-and-white and in my mind leaves no doubt that the mod is a second-class topic (as it should be). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 21:19, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | #I feel it's interesting to point out that, while the original decision those years ago was to allow stuff like "Wavedashing was reimplemented in Project M" into regular articles, it basically never happened, and eventually people pretty much forgot about it to the point where everyone assumed it wasn't allowed. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure no one was actively misinterpreting the decision at the time; it just ended up abandoned.) And to be honest, I think that's what's best for the wiki. It's all well and good to have rules about how much is acceptable, but it'll inevitably become fuzzy as successive editors tweak a single sentence until it splits in two and eventually turns into a whole paragraph, and then the discussion will begin as to exactly how much of what's there is too much. The current standard is pretty black-and-white and in my mind leaves no doubt that the mod is a second-class topic (as it should be). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Boss 21:19, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | ||
#:Alright then after this either way, it should be explicitly defined allowed or disallowed in policy: right now we have nothing whatsoever saying that this is not allowed, and it's being enforced as such. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 23:17, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | #:Alright then after this either way, it should be explicitly defined allowed or disallowed in policy: right now we have nothing whatsoever saying that this is not allowed, and it's being enforced as such. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 23:17, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | ||
==Neutral== | ==Neutral== | ||
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::::Pages about tournament results, smashers, PMRank etc. Why are they considered acceptable pages covering the competitive scene and identical to their main series counterparts, whereas there is no PM section in [[Stage legality]] or a corresponding page similar to [[Tournament Legal]]. Why are tournaments, smashers, rankings, etc. not considered as giving PM "equal ground" or are deemed exceptions to the general rule? The distinction seems really arbitrary, so I assumed there would be some record of it somewhere. Was there a question over this that I couldn't find, where this was decided with guidelines that clear up the distinction. The only method I can find to understand what qualifies is assumption based on what is and isn't already there. As this proposal demonstrates, what is/isn't there doesn't necessarily reflect the actual rules/guidelines decided upon. [[User:Pyr0pr0|Pyr0pr0]] ([[User talk:Pyr0pr0|talk]]) 18:59, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | ::::Pages about tournament results, smashers, PMRank etc. Why are they considered acceptable pages covering the competitive scene and identical to their main series counterparts, whereas there is no PM section in [[Stage legality]] or a corresponding page similar to [[Tournament Legal]]. Why are tournaments, smashers, rankings, etc. not considered as giving PM "equal ground" or are deemed exceptions to the general rule? The distinction seems really arbitrary, so I assumed there would be some record of it somewhere. Was there a question over this that I couldn't find, where this was decided with guidelines that clear up the distinction. The only method I can find to understand what qualifies is assumption based on what is and isn't already there. As this proposal demonstrates, what is/isn't there doesn't necessarily reflect the actual rules/guidelines decided upon. [[User:Pyr0pr0|Pyr0pr0]] ([[User talk:Pyr0pr0|talk]]) 18:59, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | ||
:::::[[Stage legality]] and [[Tournament legal]] fall in the scope of competitive articles, so PM content is allowed there already. If PM isn't there, it should be. An article for each PM specific stage (or shared stages with the official games having PM sections) would '''not''' fall in this scope, so it is disallowed. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:04, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | :::::[[Stage legality]] and [[Tournament legal]] fall in the scope of competitive articles, so PM content is allowed there already. If PM isn't there, it should be. An article for each PM specific stage (or shared stages with the official games having PM sections) would '''not''' fall in this scope, so it is disallowed. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;font-size:12pt">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:04, 20 March 2017 (EDT) | ||
Can someone explain to me what's wrong with the name drops? What's the problem with saying that the Wario Bike was replaced with Shoulder Bash? What's the problem with saying that Wavedash is something that was added back in? The usual argument i hear is "slippery slope", in two particular directions: | Can someone explain to me what's wrong with the name drops? What's the problem with saying that the Wario Bike was replaced with Shoulder Bash? What's the problem with saying that Wavedash is something that was added back in? The usual argument i hear is "slippery slope", in two particular directions: | ||
# ''These mentions are only the start; we would have to name drop it in way too many articles.'': False, Project M simply didn't change that much about Brawl. Not only that, but also a lot of what it did was restoring things that were already in Melee, or adding references to official games, so it's not like we'd be adding completely new things. | # ''These mentions are only the start; we would have to name drop it in way too many articles.'': False, Project M simply didn't change that much about Brawl. Not only that, but also a lot of what it did was restoring things that were already in Melee, or adding references to official games, so it's not like we'd be adding completely new things. | ||
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:#Want to use sites such as SmashWiki to promote and expand PM. That's not what we're for. | :#Want to use sites such as SmashWiki to promote and expand PM. That's not what we're for. | ||
:Let's not forget that PM is on shaky legal grounds (enough so for its development to abrubtly cease). I'm not an expert on the subject, but it may be best to leave our mentions of it a bit dormant. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bomb 06:59, 22 March 2017 (EDT) | :Let's not forget that PM is on shaky legal grounds (enough so for its development to abrubtly cease). I'm not an expert on the subject, but it may be best to leave our mentions of it a bit dormant. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Da Bomb 06:59, 22 March 2017 (EDT) | ||