Editing Forum:P+ content
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{{forumheader|Proposals}} | {{forumheader|Proposals}} | ||
{{Proposal | {{Proposal}} | ||
Following the development of Project+, we find ourselves in need of answers for how we should handle it. There are a number of different methods we could go about doing this, and it is the aim of this proposal to cover all of it. | Following the development of Project+, we find ourselves in need of answers for how we should handle it. There are a number of different methods we could go about doing this, and it is the aim of this proposal to cover all of it. | ||
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==Part 1: Do we cover this at all?== | ==Part 1: Do we cover this at all?== | ||
If this section gets support, the following will occur: | If this section gets support, the following will occur: | ||
*Project + will get its own article (the PM article will be untouched, aside from mentioning P+) | *Project + will get its own article (the PM article will be untouched, aside from mentioning P+) | ||
*An article icon will be added for use on event articles (and P+ specific articles should that be decided on) only. | *An article icon will be added for use on event articles (and P+ specific articles should that be decided on) only. | ||
'''If you oppose this part of the proposal, please do not vote on the rest of it.''' | '''If you oppose this part of the proposal, please do not vote on the rest of it.''' | ||
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#This allows for P+ events to be noted separately from PM events (which will become more relevant over time as the P+ meta evolves and becomes even more different from the PM meta), and also allows us to keep better track of the popularity of P+ in case it ever reaches high enough levels that we need to increase the amount of content included. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 19:11, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #This allows for P+ events to be noted separately from PM events (which will become more relevant over time as the P+ meta evolves and becomes even more different from the PM meta), and also allows us to keep better track of the popularity of P+ in case it ever reaches high enough levels that we need to increase the amount of content included. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 19:11, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#I've already seen several tournaments transition to P+, and I believe it's inevitable that other tournaments will follow suit, and sooner or later most Project M majors would be using it. Looking ahead, Smash 'N' Splash 6 is using Project+ (labeled as Project M+), and said tournament series generally holds the largest PM tournaments of all time (SnS 5 having almost 400 entrants), so we're gonna have to add some form of P+ sooner or later. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:14, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #I've already seen several tournaments transition to P+, and I believe it's inevitable that other tournaments will follow suit, and sooner or later most Project M majors would be using it. Looking ahead, Smash 'N' Splash 6 is using Project+ (labeled as Project M+), and said tournament series generally holds the largest PM tournaments of all time (SnS 5 having almost 400 entrants), so we're gonna have to add some form of P+ sooner or later. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:14, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#Supporting | #Supporting dor the reasons mentioned above. Project + has become just as popular as PM, if not even more so. Because of its popularity in tournaments there's no reason to not give it a mention on this wiki. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 19:43, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#Given the depth of the changes being implemented *game wide* (not just balancing) i believe it is different enough to have its own wiki. so many new stages, menu options, extra modes, costumes, tournement presence,etc...its a lot to cover as simply a footnote on the PM wiki. - WaveOfSilence <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:142.167.13.88|142.167.13.88]] ([[User talk:142.167.13.88|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/142.167.13.88|contribs]]) 19:59, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | #Given the depth of the changes being implemented *game wide* (not just balancing) i believe it is different enough to have its own wiki. so many new stages, menu options, extra modes, costumes, tournement presence,etc...its a lot to cover as simply a footnote on the PM wiki. - WaveOfSilence <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:142.167.13.88|142.167.13.88]] ([[User talk:142.167.13.88|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/142.167.13.88|contribs]]) 19:59, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
#Most of the Project M scene is already moving over to Project Plus, and it would be extremely useful to have a wiki page that allows people to easily learn what this version is, how it differs, and which builds upon the existing PM pages to provide useful information. I'm aware that there was/is another discussion about PM's place on this wiki at all, but given that the game is still hosted here and has regularly updated content here for top players and events, IMO it makes sense to at least do that correctly by reflecting the current version of the game being played. - Tscsabre <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Tscsabre|Tscsabre]] ([[User talk:Tscsabre|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tscsabre|contribs]]) 20:05, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | #Most of the Project M scene is already moving over to Project Plus, and it would be extremely useful to have a wiki page that allows people to easily learn what this version is, how it differs, and which builds upon the existing PM pages to provide useful information. I'm aware that there was/is another discussion about PM's place on this wiki at all, but given that the game is still hosted here and has regularly updated content here for top players and events, IMO it makes sense to at least do that correctly by reflecting the current version of the game being played. - Tscsabre <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Tscsabre|Tscsabre]] ([[User talk:Tscsabre|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tscsabre|contribs]]) 20:05, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
===Oppose=== | ===Oppose=== | ||
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#:Keep in mind, Alex, there [[Forum:Project M coverage|we had a proposal to delete all PM character articles]], which ultimately failed. Had I been a user at that time I would've also opposed for the same reasons as Omega Tyrant. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 19:43, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #:Keep in mind, Alex, there [[Forum:Project M coverage|we had a proposal to delete all PM character articles]], which ultimately failed. Had I been a user at that time I would've also opposed for the same reasons as Omega Tyrant. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 19:43, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#::That is a very old, and very poorly made proposal which puts focus on irrelevant factors such as the popularity of Project M. That proposal has nothing to do with what I am talking about. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:48, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #::That is a very old, and very poorly made proposal which puts focus on irrelevant factors such as the popularity of Project M. That proposal has nothing to do with what I am talking about. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:48, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#Give it a page of its own, like we do for 20XX, Brawl Minus, etc. Do not give it anything beyond that until it garners the same level of mass media coverage that PM did. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 20:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | # Give it a page of its own, like we do for 20XX, Brawl Minus, etc. Do not give it anything beyond that until it garners the same level of mass media coverage that PM did. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chilled 20:23, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Neutral=== | ===Neutral=== | ||
#I personally do not care much for mods. They're great fun, but they aren't official content. That said, Project M has had an impact on the Smash community, and I think the community is just as important as the games themselves. I'm not too sure about P+'s impact, but as it is a continuation of Project M, I see no reason to not include it, either. This is a fine line that is being walked on, however. As I already said, mods are not official content<s>, so making one an exception could lead to more exceptions. But we also have [[Brawl-]] and not Super Smash Bros. Crusade, so *shrug*</s> Never mind, there's apparently [[Template:SSBMods|a large number of mods being covered]], but my thoughts still stand. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 19:46, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #I personally do not care much for mods. They're great fun, but they aren't official content. That said, Project M has had an impact on the Smash community, and I think the community is just as important as the games themselves. I'm not too sure about P+'s impact, but as it is a continuation of Project M, I see no reason to not include it, either. This is a fine line that is being walked on, however. As I already said, mods are not official content<s>, so making one an exception could lead to more exceptions. But we also have [[Brawl-]] and not Super Smash Bros. Crusade, so *shrug*</s> Never mind, there's apparently [[Template:SSBMods|a large number of mods being covered]], but my thoughts still stand. [[User:Alex95|Alex95]] ([[User talk:Alex95|talk]]) 19:46, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
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:::::::Once again, that's irrelevant. The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything. The SmashWiki is an outlier among Nintendo Wikis because for some reason a significant portion of the community is ok with being completely inconsistent with regards to what we do and don't cover, and hence we end up turning a blind eye to excessive amounts of content on mods (which incidentally always ends up becoming outdated and inaccurate because most of the editors aren't willing to contribute to them, which is in part due to the fact that on some level they realize that these articles don't belong here). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:35, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | :::::::Once again, that's irrelevant. The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything. The SmashWiki is an outlier among Nintendo Wikis because for some reason a significant portion of the community is ok with being completely inconsistent with regards to what we do and don't cover, and hence we end up turning a blind eye to excessive amounts of content on mods (which incidentally always ends up becoming outdated and inaccurate because most of the editors aren't willing to contribute to them, which is in part due to the fact that on some level they realize that these articles don't belong here). ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:35, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
::::::::If you're gonna compare us to other wikis, Bulbapedia covers {{iw|bulbapedia|Pokémon Showdown}}, which isn't related to Nintendo or The Pokémon Company, yet still has a huge userbase. If something's really popular that it gets attention from the press, it's our job to cover it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:41, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ::::::::If you're gonna compare us to other wikis, Bulbapedia covers {{iw|bulbapedia|Pokémon Showdown}}, which isn't related to Nintendo or The Pokémon Company, yet still has a huge userbase. If something's really popular that it gets attention from the press, it's our job to cover it. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:41, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
(reset indent) Let me ask you, then. What do we do if there's a major P+ tournament (which is gonna come no matter what). Do we just not acknowledge it? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:32, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | (reset indent) Let me ask you, then. What do we do if there's a major P+ tournament (which is gonna come no matter what). Do we just not acknowledge it? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:32, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:Exactly, because it's not our job to acknowledge it, that's the job of modding Wikis like the PM Wiki. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:37, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | :Exactly, because it's not our job to acknowledge it, that's the job of modding Wikis like the PM Wiki. ''[[User:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Alex the weeb|<span style="color: red;">'''Weeb'''</span>]]'' 19:37, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
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::"''pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the ''Brawl'' mod [[Project M]]) will not be acceptable.''" | ::"''pushing for the removal of information with the argument that it's not approved/endorsed by Nintendo (such as the ''Brawl'' mod [[Project M]]) will not be acceptable.''" | ||
::The fact still stands that P+ is having a | ::The fact still stands that P+ is having a signifficant impact in the Smash community. The fact that it's a mod does not mean we must completely ignore it. | ||
::''"The largest PM tournament has more entrants than both the largest Brawl and Smash 64 tournaments", entirely irrelevant.''" No, it is completely | ::''"The largest PM tournament has more entrants than both the largest Brawl and Smash 64 tournaments", entirely irrelevant.''" No, it is completely relevent. The fact that PM was overshadowing Brawl in terms of competitive play was one of the reasons why we started having PM content in the first place. Completely disregarding any mention of P+ just because it's "not official" is a terrible reason to oppose. | ||
::"''The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything.''" Yes it does. Again why do we have pages for PM in the first place? Because of its popularity in the community. Project + has nearly overshadowed PM in terms of competitive play, it's enough to make it notable on this wiki. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 20:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ::"''The popularity of a mod doesn't change anything.''" Yes it does. Again why do we have pages for PM in the first place? Because of its popularity in the community. Project + has nearly overshadowed PM in terms of competitive play, it's enough to make it notable on this wiki. [[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 20:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
==Part 2: What do we do about the character articles== | ==Part 2: What do we do about the character articles== | ||
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We would also make an article for Knuckles. This also raises the question "do we rename the articles to reflect P+" (In other words, ''Mario (PM)'' or ''Mario (P+)''). Please include incite on this if you vote here. | We would also make an article for Knuckles. This also raises the question "do we rename the articles to reflect P+" (In other words, ''Mario (PM)'' or ''Mario (P+)''). Please include incite on this if you vote here. | ||
#...As a Project M/+ player, IMO it makes the most sense to add sections to the PM articles to reflect the P+ changes. This makes it easier for users to find information about both versions of the character, and reduces the number of unnecessary pages on the wiki. - Tscsabre <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Tscsabre|Tscsabre]] ([[User talk:Tscsabre|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tscsabre|contribs]]) 20:03, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | #...As a Project M/+ player, IMO it makes the most sense to add sections to the PM articles to reflect the P+ changes. This makes it easier for users to find information about both versions of the character, and reduces the number of unnecessary pages on the wiki. - Tscsabre <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Tscsabre|Tscsabre]] ([[User talk:Tscsabre|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Tscsabre|contribs]]) 20:03, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
===Make separate articles for Project + characters=== | ===Make separate articles for Project + characters=== | ||
#Given that several characters have massive changes (IE: Bowser/Charzard) and to keep things together, should we get the wiki it would be better to have everything pertaining to it in one area - WaveOfSilence <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:142.167.13.88|142.167.13.88]] ([[User talk:142.167.13.88|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/142.167.13.88|contribs]]) 19:56, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | #Given that several characters have massive changes (IE: Bowser/Charzard) and to keep things together, should we get the wiki it would be better to have everything pertaining to it in one area - WaveOfSilence <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:142.167.13.88|142.167.13.88]] ([[User talk:142.167.13.88|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/142.167.13.88|contribs]]) 19:56, April 9, 2020 (EDT)</small> | ||
===Nothing, do not cover Project + characters=== | ===Nothing, do not cover Project + characters=== | ||
#'''I would like to clarify that I only believe this as a temporary measure'''. For now, P+ does not have enough popularity to warrant pages for every P+ character. And as per my concerns earlier about distinguishing PM and P+, making P+ an addendum onto the PM character pages will cause additional problems. If/when P+ reaches the same levels of popularity as PM, then we can reconsider, but for now this is the best option. I would also be open to a condensed page in the style of [[User:Miles of SmashWiki/PM condensing]] but with changelogs also noted as an intermediate measure, but that is outside the scope of this proposal. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 19:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #'''I would like to clarify that I only believe this as a temporary measure'''. For now, P+ does not have enough popularity to warrant pages for every P+ character. And as per my concerns earlier about distinguishing PM and P+, making P+ an addendum onto the PM character pages will cause additional problems. If/when P+ reaches the same levels of popularity as PM, then we can reconsider, but for now this is the best option. I would also be open to a condensed page in the style of [[User:Miles of SmashWiki/PM condensing]] but with changelogs also noted as an intermediate measure, but that is outside the scope of this proposal. [[User:DekZek|<font color="MidnightBlue">'''Dek'''</font><font color="Blue">'''Zek'''</font>]] [[File:Dekzeksig.png|20px|link=User talk:DekZek]] 19:16, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
#:Meh I would worry that such an article would be far too long, especially if we decide not to trim off content from the PM articles. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:27, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | #:Meh I would worry that such an article would be far too long, especially if we decide not to trim off content from the PM articles. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:27, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
===Comments=== | ===Comments=== | ||
Will a Knuckles icon be added anyways? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:19, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | Will a Knuckles icon be added anyways? [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 19:19, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
:If we decide to cover the project, yes at least for use in tournament results. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:20, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | :If we decide to cover the project, yes at least for use in tournament results. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:20, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
As of right now I feel as though we should wait to see if P+ makes significant changes to characters. Unless P+ completely "replaces" PM I don't think the first option will work. | As of right now I feel as though we should wait to see if P+ makes significant changes to characters. Unless P+ completely "replaces" PM I don't think the first option will work..[[Image:001Toad.jpg|20px]] <span style="font-family:Algerian">'''[[User:OmegaToad64|<font color="blue">OmegαToαd</font> <font color="aqua">the Toαd Wαrrior</font>]] [[User talk:OmegaToad64|<font color="springgreen">(BUP)</font></span>]]''' 19:53, April 9, 2020 (EDT) | ||
