Editing Forum:Get rid of all competitive navigation templates?

{{Forumheader|Watercooler}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ -->
This is something that [[Template talk:Ccsc#Can we remove smashers from this template?|has been mentioned before]], but was never decided upon. Competitive nav templates (such as [[Template:Ccsc]]) serve very little purpose and their grouping is usually loosely based on location of the tournament, crew, etc. We have already decided that individual smashers don't belong on these, but I would like to be rid of them completely. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:18, 27 February 2016 (EST)

==Support==
#I obviously support. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:18, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#I'd be fine with dropping most of them, but I think we could/should keep the ones for various tourney series. (ex. [[Template:GENESIS|here]] or [[Template:Apex|here]]) [[User:BaconMaster331|<span style="color: Crimson;">'''Bacon'''</span>]][[User talk:BaconMaster331|<span style="color: Maroon;">'''Master'''</span>]][[File:BaconMasterSig.png|16px|link=]] 20:29, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#drop every one except for tournament ones. [[File:PoultrysigSSB4.png|20x50px]][[User:Poultry|<font color="red">'''Poultry'''</font>]][[File:PoultrysigSSBM.png|20x50px]]''([[User talk:Poultry#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' the Pumpkin Pie 20:49, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#'''Do this asap''' Those templates annoy me to no end. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:HotPink; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:HotPink;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:DisasterFlareValentineSig.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:HotPink;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 20:55, 27 February 2016 (EST)
#'''I don't have a stance on this, but support''' per everyone else. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: red;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:pink;">'''The Lovingly Evil Clone'''</span>]] 21:34, 27 February 2016 (EST)

==Oppose==

==Comments==
For me it depends on one basic question: if you're trying to navigate between competitive Smash topics, how is the most practical way to do it? Let's say someone wanted to look at, say, a) [[Smasher:Larry Lurr|SoCal Smasher pages]], b) [[Paragon Los Angeles 2015|SoCal tournament pages]], and c) [[SoCal Power Rankings]]. Right now, the best way to do that is to use [[:Category:Southern California smashers|multiple]] [[:Category:Southern California tournaments|categories]], which is workable but not necessarily as intuitive as a nav template. On the other hand, as I mentioned in the linked discussion in the OP, the issue becomes deciding notability requirements for a nav template and making sure it doesn't get filled with bloat. It's a tricky call. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 20:46, 27 February 2016 (EST)
:Would you at least call it reasonable to drop crews out of the templates? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:53, 27 February 2016 (EST)
::I suppose. That's kind of not my area of concern here. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 21:35, 27 February 2016 (EST)
:::To me, all these things are are annoyances. They get in the way when trying to delete pages, and they constantly have to be updated (but never are) <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:37, 27 February 2016 (EST)
::::What I will agree with is that the current system is sloppy and inconsistent. However, before trashing the concept completely, I feel like it's worthwhile to consider the benefits of improving the system instead. For example, here's a sloppy mockup I threw together:

{{Navbox
| name  = Navbox
| title = Southern California competitive scene

| group1    = Top players (''[[Melee]]'')
| list1    = {{sm|Mango}}{{·}} {{sm|Westballz}}{{·}} {{sm|Lucky}}{{·}} {{sm|MacD}}{{·}} {{sm|S2J}}{{·}} {{sm|HugS}}{{·}} {{sm|Mike Haze}}{{·}} {{sm|Alex19}}{{·}} {{sm|Ken}}{{·}} {{sm|Fly Amanita}}

| group2    = Top players (''[[SSB4]]'')
| list2    = {{sm|ZeRo}}{{·}} {{sm|Larry Lurr}}{{·}} {{sm|VoiD}}{{·}} {{sm|Ito}}{{·}} {{sm|Tyrant}}{{·}} {{sm|K9}}{{·}} {{sm|falln}}{{·}} {{sm|Tearbear}}{{·}} {{sm|Mr. ConCon}}{{·}} {{sm|Zenyou}}{{·}} {{sm|Xzax}}

| group3    = Major tournaments
| list3    = [[Smash of Ages 2015]]{{·}} [[Press Start]]{{·}} [[Paragon Los Angeles 2015]]{{·}} more would go here

| group4   = Other
| list4   = [[SoCal Power Rankings]]{{·}} [[:Category:Southern California smashers|Smashers]]{{·}} [[:Category:Southern California tournaments|Tournaments]]

}}

::::I figure this is the kind of thing that should be considered. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:02, 27 February 2016 (EST)
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-{{Forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ -->
+{{Forumheader|Watercooler}}<!-- Please put your content under this line.  Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ -->
-{{Proposal|y}}
+This is something that [[Template talk:Ccsc#Can we remove smashers from this template?|has been mentioned before]], but was never decided upon. Competitive nav templates (such as [[Template:Ccsc]]) serve very little purpose and their grouping is usually loosely based on location of the tournament, crew, etc. We have already decided that individual smashers don't belong on these, but I would like to be rid of them completely. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:18, 27 February 2016 (EST)
-This is something that has been mentioned before, but was never decided upon. Competitive nav templates (such as Template:Ccsc) serve very little purpose and their grouping is usually loosely based on location of the tournament, crew, etc. We have already decided that individual smashers don't belong on these, but I would like to be rid of them completely. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 20:18, 27 February 2016 (EST)
 ==Support==
@@ Line 9: / Line 8: @@
 #'''Do this asap''' Those templates annoy me to no end. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:HotPink; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:HotPink;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:DisasterFlareValentineSig.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:HotPink;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 20:55, 27 February 2016 (EST)
 #'''I don't have a stance on this, but support''' per everyone else. [[User:Ganonmew|<span style="color: red;">'''Ganonmew'''</span>]], [[User talk:Ganonmew|<span style="color:pink;">'''The Lovingly Evil Clone'''</span>]] 21:34, 27 February 2016 (EST)
-#'''Support''' for every template on deletion. I saw the Ccsc template on {{Sm|Big D}}'s page when I edited it, and obviously thought it was unnecessary since that day. I'm glad the others are getting deleted as well. --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|50px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''BeepYou'''</font>]], '''a user with no grammar at all :v [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]]''' 15:19, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-#'''Support''' per everyone else. And don't worry BaconMaster, the tournament series templates are different from these ones, so those are safe. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 15:24, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-#I '''support''', but we shouldn't delete tournament navigation templates like [[Template:Apex|Apex]] or [[Template:TGC|TGC]]. -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 15:28, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-#Like with most other Wiki proposals, I arrived too late, and my opinion has basically already been summed up by others. But whatever, I still '''support'''. --[[User:MeatBall104|<span style="color: red">'''''Meat'''''</span>]][[User talk:MeatBall104|<span style="color: orange">'''''Ball'''''</span>]][[Special:Contributions/MeatBall104|<span style="color:Gold">'''''104'''''</span>]] [[File:MB104Pic2.jpg|20px]] 16:59, 2 March 2016 (EST)
 ==Oppose==
@@ Line 22: / Line 17: @@
 :::To me, all these things are are annoyances. They get in the way when trying to delete pages, and they constantly have to be updated (but never are) <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 21:37, 27 February 2016 (EST)
 ::::What I will agree with is that the current system is sloppy and inconsistent. However, before trashing the concept completely, I feel like it's worthwhile to consider the benefits of improving the system instead. For example, here's a sloppy mockup I threw together:
 {{Navbox
 | name  = Navbox
@@ Line 41: / Line 37: @@
 ::::I figure this is the kind of thing that should be considered. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:02, 27 February 2016 (EST)
-:::::Ok but we would then need to draw a firm line on what gets a nav template and what doesn't. Less notable groups are bound to have more out of date content, so these should be for only the most notable of groups. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:28, 27 February 2016 (EST)
-::::::Agreed, which is why I used a notable and active region like SoCal as an example. In the same way there's a clear delineation between "regional" and "national" tournaments, I figure it would be possible to specify what qualifies a region's scene as notable and substantial enough to warrant a template. I'm not the right person to make the call of where to draw the line, but I could see it working out if done that way. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 22:31, 27 February 2016 (EST)
-Ok then let's do this: We'll have discussion on each template (or I guess in some cases, groups of templates).
-(my sig has to go somewhere so...) <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 22:45, 27 February 2016 (EST)
-:I don't like the idea of including smashers in a competitive template. The rules for getting included onto the template are going to be arbitrary in some way, and I can see non-notable people either putting themselves or their friends on frequently. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 00:40, 28 February 2016 (EST)
-::Besides that, why should you be on the template for a tournament even if you didn't participate in that tournament? It just doesn't make sense. I think we can do without the template. A page called "Southern California Competitive Smash Scene" would be better imo. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 15:17, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-Why are we supposed to make a template for SoCal? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 12:40, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-:SoCal is one of the biggest and toughest regions in '''[[Brawl]]''' and '''[[SSB4]]''', alongside the [[Tristate Area]], with the former featuring players like {{Sm|Larry Lurr}}, {{Sm|VoiD}}, and {{Sm|ZeRo}}. [[User:Penro|'''Penro''']] [[User talk:Penro|...that's all.]] [[File:PenroDarkPitHead.png|19px]] [[File:PenroZSSHead.png|19px]] 15:11, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-::So is this based on notability or is SoCal an exception? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 17:24, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-Can I add [[template:KTAR]] to "Templates that are safe from deletion"? -- [[User:Ethan7|<span style="color:#000f55;font-family:Cursive;font-style:italic">Ethan</span>]][[file:Ethan7sig.png|20px|link=User:Ethan7]]<small>''([[User talk:Ethan7|<span style="color:Blue">Discussion</span>]])''</small> 14:28, 8 March 2016 (EST)
-:can i add some templates that i would like to see added? [[File:PoultrysigSSB4.png|20x50px]][[User:Poultry|<font color="red">'''Poultry'''</font>]][[File:PoultrysigSSBM.png|20x50px]]''([[User talk:Poultry#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' the Pumpkin Pie 18:35, 10 March 2016 (EST)
-::i will do it anyway [[File:PoultrysigSSB4.png|20x50px]][[User:Poultry|<font color="red">'''Poultry'''</font>]][[File:PoultrysigSSBM.png|20x50px]]''([[User talk:Poultry#top|<font color="blue">talk</font>]])'' the Pumpkin Pie 19:52, 10 March 2016 (EST)
-I'm late on this, but I have to say this was a great call. Those templates were always tremendously annoying when I would handle unnotable players, while providing little value and not having any sort of upkeep whatsoever. I'm not sure why I never actually tried getting them formally removed before.
-Regarding easing navigation between subjects of a single region, I always intended to make articles about each Smash region, that covered its history, its subregions, its players, its tournaments, and its power rankings, though it was something I never got around to actually implementing. These articles would probably suffer from upkeep issues as well like most competitive-related things here, though unlike a template, such issues would be self-contained and wouldn't affect the rest of the wiki beyond maybe the occasional single unneeded red link that could be easily removed. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 10:40, 15 April 2016 (EDT)
-==Templates that should be newly created==
-*[[Template:Tipped Off]] {{y|16px}}
-==Templates that are safe from deletion==
-These templates are safe from deletion, but may need alterations to fit the higher notability standards.
-*[[Template:Apex]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:Zenith]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:PAX]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:RoM]] {{y|16px}} <!--RoM is short for Revival of Melee-->
-*[[Template:BEAST]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:CEO]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:DVDA]] {{indeterminate|16px}}
-*[[Template:ESL]] {{indeterminate|16px}}
-*[[Template:EVO]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:GOML]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:FC]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:Forte]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:GENESIS]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:KTAR]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:MLG]] {{y|16px}}- probably could do with some cleanup.
-*[[Template:Paragon]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:Pound]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:TGC]] {{indeterminate|16px}}
-*[[Template:The Big House]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:Umebura]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:Kings of Cali]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:Shots Fired]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:Smash Summit]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:SKTAR]] {{y|16px}}
-*[[Template:WHOBO]] {{y|16px}}
-==Templates that should be deleted==
-These templates may be deleted due to their scope having complete lack of notability.
-*Template:Ccsc {{n|16px}}
-*Template:Aussmash {{n|16px}}
-*Template:Sgsc {{n|16px}}
-*Template:RaF {{n|16px}}
-===Discussion===
-Are we least all in agreement that these should all get the boot? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 23:01, 27 February 2016 (EST)
-:Yeah, those four can be removed any day. I '''support''' deletion. <b>[[User:john3637881|<span style="color: black;">John</span>]]</b> [[File:John3637881 Signature.png|20px]] <b>[[User talk:John3637881|<span style="color: red;">PK SMAAAASH!!</span>]]</b> 00:40, 28 February 2016 (EST)
-::On the fence about Australia, since it covers the scene of an entire country, but '''support deletion of all others'''. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 18:10, 28 February 2016 (EST)
-:::'''Support!''' --[[File:BeepYouSignature.png|50px]] [[User:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''BeepYou'''</font>]], '''a user with no grammar at all :v [[User talk:BeepYou|<font color="Black">'''(talk)'''</font>]]''' 17:20, 2 March 2016 (EST)
-Is there anyone else who thinks that Aussmash shouls exist? <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva; font-size:12pt">[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #0b7">'''Serpent'''</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|16px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0; text-shadow:0px 0px 3px #fd0">'''King'''</span></span>]] 14:18, 8 March 2016 (EST)
-:I think that one should go too, in all honesty. I don't see much of a reason to keep it. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 14:19, 8 March 2016 (EST)
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