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| {{Archive}} | | {{Forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content under this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes ~~~~ --> |
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| | <center><big><big>'''Welcome to the SmashWiki Proposals page.<br>If you wish to make a new proposal, please do so at the bottom of the page under a new section header.<br>Remember to sign your comments with '''<nowiki>~~~~</nowiki></big></big></center><br><br> |
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| ==Add Order Numbers from Ultimate's E3 video to character pages== | | ==Add Order Numbers from Ultimate's E3 video to character pages== |
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| Thank you for reading and please show your stand on this. To be frank, as I was the author of the Shulk pages, I may go ahead and split the pages regardless as I put in all the effort to make them as they were now. All I wish to do is improve readability and give Shulk's techs credit where it is due. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi|talk]]) 00:30, 5 January 2019 (EST) | | Thank you for reading and please show your stand on this. To be frank, as I was the author of the Shulk pages, I may go ahead and split the pages regardless as I put in all the effort to make them as they were now. All I wish to do is improve readability and give Shulk's techs credit where it is due. [[User:Mexi|Mexi]] ([[User talk:Mexi|talk]]) 00:30, 5 January 2019 (EST) |
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| == Use the Other Symbol instead of Special Stages ==
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| We've been using [[Battlefield (SSBM)]]'s unique symbol for minor universes that don't have a symbol. But now that Ultimate has a symbol representing the minor universes that is used in the music tracks and spirits, I think we should start using what's recognized as the "Other" series symbol instead of that one symbol from a Smash original stage. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 16:53, 17 January 2019 (EST)
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| == Hazard Switch Details on Stage Pages ==
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| I was actually rather surprised to see that the information for what gets turned off when you play a stage in ''Ultimate'' with hazards switched off is only present on the page for [[Stage hazard]] itself. Considering it causes rather large changes to stages in some cases (such as both [[Pokémon Stadium| Pokémon]] [[Pokémon Stadium 2|Stadiums]] staying in regular mode forever and the [[Falcon Flyer]] being the only platform on [[Big Blue]]) and can influence what stages are viable competitively, I think it would be pertinent to host this information on the pages for the levels themselves. [[User/Mega Mario Man|Mega Mario Man]] ([[User talk:Mega Mario Man|talk]]) 22:48, 20 January 2019 (EST)
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| Here's a bit of mockup for what such a thing would look like. [[User/Mega Mario Man|Mega Mario Man]] ([[User talk:Mega Mario Man|talk]]) 20:36, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| <gallery>
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| File:Hazard_Switch_1.PNG|The contents bar, with new Hazards Off section.
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| File:Hazard_Switch_2.PNG|Since Omegas were introduced in Smash 4 and BF Forms are grouped with Omegas, it would make sense to put the Hazards Off section below the Omega + BF Form section.
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| </gallery>
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| :This info would be useful on each stage's page, but I don't think pictures are necessary, since the differences aren't easily expressed through still images; in many cases, such as the Pokémon Stadiums, they'd be identical to the default images. Besides that, I'm all for it. [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 21:11, 12 February 2019 (EST)
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| == Include global rankings on news template ==
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| This is a pretty short and simple suggestion. I think we should start adding global PRs to the news template here whenever the PR officially concludes revealing. This would include [[64 League Rankings]], [[MPGR]], [[SSBBRank]], [[PMRank]], [[PGRU|PGR Ultimate]], and [[PGR|PGR Smash 4]] if that ever makes a comeback for some reason. [[User:Pokebub|Pokebub]] ([[User talk:Pokebub|talk]]) 19:46, 1 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Wouldn't it be too long though? All of these lists go to at least 50 places. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 18:24, 15 February 2019 (EST)
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| == Place alts that have their own costumes on the main section relating to the spefic game they’re in instead of the gallery ==
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| [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Cloud_Strife&diff=next&oldid=1189569 My proposal]: as you can see here, Cloud’s advent children outfit is placed in Smash 4’s and Ultimate’s sections on his page. This will also be the case for [[Isabelle]], [[Ike]], [[Wario]], [[Pokémon Trainer]], [[Corrin]], [[Robin]], [[Inkling]], and [[Wii Fit Trainer]].
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| :Arguements for: This displays the images muh larger ''without'' having to click on them and taking you to another page. Additionally, this also clears up organization. Ike’s gallery is literally only one image with his costume, so noving it to Ultimate’s section and completely ommiting the gallery should organize it a little better. Additionally, in the case of Isabelle and Inkling, they are mixed in with series-canon artwork, and the costumes have zero business being mixed in with those. I’ve made a [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Forum:Placing_major_alternate_costumes_in_tabs_inside_of_the_infobox&t=20190215024019 similar argument] referring to placing said costumes in their infobox in tabs, as Advent Cloud’s image (as well as the others I’ve mentioned) has absolutely no business being mixed in with the website images, and it can be displayed much larger.
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| :Debunks: ''(add them here if you have any)''
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| [[Cloud Strife|The current layout]]: This layout has Cloud’s advent children outfit in the gallery instead, along with the others I mentioned.
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| :Arguements for: Placing another image in the main section stretches out the page with vertical whitespace, and does not conform well with the text on some devices. It also clutters up the page
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| :*How about we not treat some characters differently/more special than others? (such as by uploading such images in the first place).
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| :Debunks: While he whitespace is a problem, I’d argue that displaced and undersized images are more of a problem. Whitespace can be fixed by adding more text. Displaced images just make it look disorganized. While the size is a fixable issue, it will look horrible if they are enlarged while in the gallery. Additionally, I would argue that placing them in the gallery causes even more clutter, due to some of the characters I mentioned only having the costumes in their gallery, causing said pages to have an empty, barren section. In cases where this is not the case, it looks even worse when they are mixed in with series-canon artwork.
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| :The intention was not to treat them more special (though I can understand why you would see it this way), but rather, to make the pages less cluttered and the images less undersized. And some costumes, such as genderswaps, are definitely notable enough to have their own image. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 23:27, 20 February 2019 (EST)
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| [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 06:23, 19 February 2019 (EST)
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| ===Supporters of The proposed layout===
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| *As the one who proposed this in the first place, I support changing it [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 06:23, 19 February 2019 (EST)
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| ===Supporters of the Current layout===
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| *{{IP|Miles of SmashWiki}}
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| *How about we not treat some characters differently/more special than others? (such as by uploading such images in the first place). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Chronicler 06:45, 20 February 2019 (EST)
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| ===Users who have been part of this argument, but have not expressed an opinion===
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| *{{IP|Wolff}}
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| *{{IP|SugarCookie420}}
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| *{{IP|Aidanzapunk}}
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| == Separate tournament news and news about Smash itself ==
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| It's clear that with the lack of major ''Smash'' news recently, the news box is going to fill up with tournament news, so I think it would be more convenient to have them separated. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 12:42, 21 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Didn't a similar proposal like this fail before? [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 12:43, 21 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Yeah this idea isn't new; every time it comes up we decide "no" because it's not really useful to have a tiny/empty section of non-tournament news. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Xanthic 18:35, 22 February 2019 (EST)
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| == Should we change the default pronouns on Robin, Corrin, Inkling, etc.’s pages to gender neutral pronouns? ==
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| The tips in Ultimate use gender-neutral pronouns (In their series” instead of “In his series”), so I feel like we might need to change the rules on this to be consistent with what the actual games say <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] ([[User talk:184.181.102.188|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|contribs]]) 14:30, January 12, 2019</small>
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| :No, refer [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Inkling_%28SSBU%29&type=revision&diff=1162582&oldid=1162577 here] to why. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:39, 12 January 2019 (EST)
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| :Also, I should probably state that [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]], judging how my previous explanation probably wasn't the best. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 14:41, 12 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::I’m aware that SmashWiki is unofficial. However, in order to be more consistent with the source material, I’d suggest changing the rules on default costumes. I use all of the default genders except Corrin anyways. I just want this to be consistent with official info[[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 14:50, 12 January 2019 (EST)
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| I don't think this change would provide any useful benefit. Also note that your example is very limited; the tip text itself largely avoids using pronouns for many of the reversible characters. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Resolute 15:53, 12 January 2019 (EST)
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| :This would provide a useful benefit: being consistent with the ingame slurce material. Even if the tips largely avoid using pronouns in general, I’d say that still counts as treating them as gender-neutral [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 21:43, 12 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::Again, [[SW:OFFICIAL|SmashWiki is not official]]. We don't have to change something just to match up with what the game does. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:08, 12 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::: “Prioritize using official names unless a different name is much more widely used.” (The “Do” number 3 on that page) .Pronouns count as names, as they merely just replace the name with something easier to type. Nintendo officially calls characters with gender alts “they” and “them”. While a majority of fans use specific gendered pronouns, there are cases where the alt’s pronoun is used instead. To appease both ends, I believe that the rule on referring characters as their default gender should be changed, as not only does it use official terms, it also appeases fans of the alts (such as that crazy Corrin fan who keeps showing up) <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] ([[User talk:184.181.102.188|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|contribs]]) 22:19, January 12, 2019</small>
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| ::::Woah, at least [[SW:NPA|watch the personal attacks]]. Anyways, the Do in number 3 is a rule geared towards smash terms such as "JV5" or "4-stock" and not really names of characters. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 22:24, 12 January 2019 (EST)
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| :::::Alright. Maybe I misunderstood that rule. However, despite SmashWiki being unofficial, I’d still suggest changing genderswap alts to use gender-neutral pronouns to be consistent with what Nintendo says. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 05:18, 13 January 2019 (EST)
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| :I actually agree with the suggestion that we should use gender neutral language. It avoids ambiguity on pages like [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Corrin&curid=65399&diff=1169933&oldid=1169932 this] which are about a character not based in Smash and therefore having no default appearance to choose from, and also prevents the future problem of what to do if a character has different default appearances in different Smash games. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 05:47, 13 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::I'd argue that it's not really our problem if home series don't know what a character's default is, and we should just use ours. Regarding your future point, that would require a very specific circumstance of "character has no canon home series gender", "character can be either gender", and "character changes default Smash Bros. gender between games", which I don't think is likely enough to change policy now.
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| ::Now that being said, if someone writes an article such that it doesn't ''use'' pronouns (like the SSB4/SSBU tips do), that doesn't require this policy to change at all. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Yellow 21:07, 13 January 2019 (EST)
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| :::Even if the fighter pages only use the default gendered variants, at least [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Corrin&curid=65399&diff=1169933&oldid=1169932 this] should be changed from “his” to “their”, as it refers to Corrin in their series, and not as a fighter. The same goes to all other non-fighter pages.
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| :::Additionally, about your point about Emmets’s future point being too specific has most of those circumstances filled by half of the genderswap characters already. It’s much less specific than you think. Robin almost always used the female version for their possesed form as Grima (particularly on the trading cards). Villager uses both genders equally in everything but Smash. Lastly, Corrin actually already uses the female gender more often in lpretty much everything but smash (She was clearly the default in Warriors, and she was advertised significantly more in Heroes, to the point where she’s the on the icon for one of the chapters, and was given out for free for a brief period. She also is featured more often on the official Fire Emblem trading cards). The only crietria not filled is if any character has changed their default gender in between games. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 23:13, 13 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::::I'm making the assumption that the "changes between games" criteria is by far the least likely to occur. I'm also operating under the presumption that however the character appears in Smash Bros. is more important than how they appear in their home universe.
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| ::::I should also note that I'm not against having an exception for the general character pages (for example, writing [Corrin] as gender-neutral, but writing [Corrin (SSBU)] and all other pages as SSB-default). [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Le Grand Fromage 22:35, 15 January 2019 (EST)
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| :::::I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered? – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::I do agree that it won’t make too much sense if the universe-level is going to be gender-neutral and the fighter pages be gendered. Should we reopen discussion about this? [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:36, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| It’s been roughly 24 hours. Have we all come to a consensus on if the “refer to characters with multiple genders by their default costume” rule should stay or go? Personally, I’d say remove the rule, as like Emmet said, it’s more consistent with non-fighter pages, and will become less confusing in case a character changes their default gender. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:99.203.11.147|99.203.11.147]] ([[User talk:99.203.11.147|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/99.203.11.147|contribs]]) 21:01, January 13, 2019</small>
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| :I think we should wait a bit more, no one has responded after Emmett's point, which to be fair is a pretty valid argument. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 21:06, 13 January 2019 (EST)
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| :I brought this up earlier ([[Forum:General proposals#Gender-neutral writing|on the general proposals page]]) and was mostly met with opposition, but I still think going gender-neutral would be the better option. The "use the gender of the default costume" rule leads to a lot of confusion, and it wouldn't hurt the flow much to just use "they". [[User:DryKirby64|DryKirby64]] ([[User talk:DryKirby64|talk]]) 22:30, 13 January 2019 (EST)
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| It’s been 48 hours after the proposition was first made. I’m curious to see if we’ve reached a consensus on whether this rule should be changed. If not, how long would the consensus take? Should we just leave it up to a vote? [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 22:59, 14 January 2019 (EST)
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| :From what I have gathered:
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| :'''Support''': IP 184.181.102.188/Lou Cena, 99.203.11.147, Emmett, DryKirby
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| :'''Oppose''': Aidan, Toomai (?), Trainer Alex, SeanWheeler
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| :'''Neutral''': Me
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| :I'd say there's a consensus, but don't take my word for it. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 18:09, 15 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::Why do you all seem so desperate to push this through as soon as possible? This is a relatively major change that needs weeks to discuss from more than 6-7 people, not days. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Free 22:26, 15 January 2019 (EST)
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| :::It’s actually a relatively simple change, which is why I’m scratching my head at it taking so long. Attempting to not break the rules, I actually edited the SSBU pages for Corrin, Inkling, Robin, Villager, and Wii Fit trainer to not contain pronouns at all (aside from the World of Light section, where I specifically state the default one). You can actually check out [[Corrin (SSBU)]], [[Inkling (SSBU)]], [[Robin (SSBU)]], [[Villager (SSBU)]], and [[Wii Fit Trainer (SSBU)]] to see if they look like the rule should be lifted or banned. Or heck, just replace the rule with a suggestion to avoid using pronouns at all, just like a all of the tips outside of the “In Their Series” section. <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] ([[User talk:184.181.102.188|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|contribs]]) 00:59, January 16, 2019</small>
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| ::::I wouldn't support a rule removing all pronouns entirely. When used properly they greatly improve the flow of sentences. That said, while I think it's a simple change in terms of the complexity, it's also not a particularly urgent or important one, so I don't overly see the harm in waiting until discussion has progressed further. – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 13:22, 16 January 2019 (EST)
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| :::To respond to Toomai, I was mainly just tallying up the consensus, since IP had asked whether we had one or not. [[User:SugarCookie420|SugarCookie420]] ([[User talk:SugarCookie420|talk]]) 13:47, 16 January 2019 (EST)
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| I would like to add another point that might be lame or old-fashioned but I feel should be considered. Many style guides for formal writing continue to discourage or outright ban the singular "they". We shouldn't blindly follow this, but we do try to keep the wiki reasonably formal, and I am of the opinion that the singular "they" feels clunky and hard to grasp in the wiki context. Allow it as optional? Fine. Mandate its usage? No thanks. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Loony 23:20, 22 January 2019 (EST)
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| :I think that’s a good compromise actually. Allow the usage of both default-gender pronouns and gender-neutral pronouns, but don’t mandate the usage of either. To help keep the consistency, would suggesting to avaoid pronouns ad much as possible work, but allow either gender-neutral or default-gender when neccessary? [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 02:49, 23 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::I'm feeling a rule something like this:
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| :::'''''Some fighters have no defined gender in their home series and change gender in some of their Smash Bros. alternate costumes (such as Robin and Inkling). When discussing these characters in the context of their home series, it is acceptable to refer to them with gender-neutral language. When discussing these characters as Smash Bros. fighters, it is preferred to use the gender of the default costume. In either case, omitting pronouns entirely is a valid style. Do not make edits simply to change one to the other.'''''
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| ::[[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Obfuscating 19:42, 23 January 2019 (EST)
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| ::::That’s perfect actually. The last part could probably be worded a little better to sound a bit less threatening (“Making edits simply to change pronouns is heavily discouraged”). Otherwise, I think this is a perfect compromise. [[Special:Contributions/184.181.102.188|184.181.102.188]] 00:37, 24 January 2019 (EST)
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| Should I move Toomai’s suggestion rule over to the general proposals thread, or should I wait until my other proposal has a consensus? I’m the IP who made this suggestion by the way. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:58, 6 February 2019 (EST)
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| :What “other proposal” are you referring to? – [[User:Emmett|<span style="color:#000000">Emmett</span>]] 04:41, 7 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Currently, I have a proposal for major alternae costumes (such as Wario, Ike, Cloud, Isabelle, Plant Bayonetta, and the aforementioned genderswaps) to be placed in the main imagebox instead of the gallery. It’s kind of related to this one, but I’m not sure if we’re allowed multiple proposals at once. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 12:06, 7 February 2019 (EST)
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| So is there a consensus here to change? [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 14:28, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Right now, me and Toomai agreed that removing pronouns entirely is a valid practice. Other than that, nobody else has come by to really give thwir opinion in weeks sadly. I remember that the admin [[Emmet]] was in support of hanging it to gender-neutral, and another user and another IP agreed on using gender-neutral pronouns. I’d say here is, but last time I changed the Manual of Style page to accompdate it, I was said to be too hasty. We may have to wait.
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| ::I don't really see any reason to change the policy regarding smasher pages at all. As far as I'm concerned the current policy works just fine, whereas gender-neutral terms like "they" tend to read rather awkwardly, and will probably just look out of place. Thus far I have not seen a single convincing argument for using gender neutral pronouns on smasher articles like Robin's that doesn't rely on breaking [[SW:NOT]], so until such an argument can be brought forward I would '''strongly oppose''' any such change in this sub-policy. Now as for the general character articles I suppose it makes more sense seeing as there isn't really a strict "default" in the home games for many of these characters, but in the context of Smash, there absolutely is. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 14:42, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::In the context of smash, some characters with multiple genders use their default less strictly than you’d think. Corrin, for example, is female on thr classic banner and a good portion of gameplay marketing. Additionally, she’s seen on the image label depicting CPU AI. Male Corrin is primarily used on the CSS and some of the marketing depicting all of the characters together (such as the release fay banner or the panoramic) [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 14:47, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::I don't see the classic mode banner as all that convincing. It would be like saying that since there is a trophy depicting male Wii Fit Trainer that there is no default costume for Wii Fit Trainer. Miscellanea in the game should not say anything about what the default is, since alternate costumes are also depicted on miscellanea as well. In the context of being a playable character, male Corrin is the default costume, and the fighter articles specifically deal with the character as a playable character. As I said before, gendered pronouns read better than neutral ones, and thus I firmly believe that if there is a default gender, then said gender should be used. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 14:53, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::The classic mode banner is admittedly weak proof that only applies to Corrin, since she’s the ONLY alt on the banner. Maybe you’re right that miscllanea shouldn’t count. But at the very least, would completely removing pronouns do it as well? That’s another suggestion being made in this thread.[[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 15:50, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::Oh definitely not, if anything sidestepping use of pronouns would make wording even more awkward, not to mention it would make editing the pages a nightmare... ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 15:58, 9 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::::I can see your arguements very clearly, and I understand them. However, as said by the admin Emmet, ''I agree that the future-proofing condition is relatively specific and not overly likely, but what is the advantage of having universe-level pages for Corrin be neutral and game-specific pages e.g. Corrin (SSBU) be gendered?'' I don’t see any particular advantage over specifically stating a character’s gender. In fact, it may deter some users who prefer playing as alternate genders (such as Corrin or Robin). At least acknowledging their existence by not focusing on default gender pronouns should alleviate that. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 02:28, 10 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::I may be a couple weeks late, but I would like to use the pronouns of the gender of the default. The singular they just feels like political correctness gone mad and it never made sense for me to use it for a single specific person. Personally I would have preferred if Pokémon used pronouns of their likely genders instead of the dehumanizing "it" like Pikachu is a he and Jigglypuff is a she. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 21:22, 23 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::Actually, now that I think about it, I might wxtwnd this scope to Alph and he Koopalings, and when referring to all characters whose alts include separate indovoduals, we use “they”. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:28, 23 February 2019 (EST)
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| I’d like to make 2 more points in favour of using gender-neutral pronouns:
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| 1. When is the last time you’ve seen somebody use Male Corrin in competetive? I normally see female Corrin, despite her being the alternate. You can’t say that “X mains Corrin because '''his''' combo game is incredibly powerful” if ''Corrin isn’t even a “he” in that context''.
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| 2. Now that we have infoboxes containing both genders, it would only make sense to use gender-neutral pronouns. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:52, 23 February 2019 (EST)
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| As someone for whom english isn't a native language (and who got bold with such a sentence, did I get it right ?), I can tell you that the gender neutral "they" is nothing but confusing. When refering to Smash fighters, "he" and "she" feel way more natural, "it" is fine for non-gendered character like the Piranha Plant (or the Pokémons, even if it's a bit weirder), "they" suits plural characters (like the Ice Climbers) but doesn't feel right for actual gender swaping characters like Robin and Corrin, it does work however for characters like the Inklings because those ones feel don't feel as much as a gender swap as they feel like being several different characters, like the Koopalings (female and male Corrin are the same entity, while each Inkling is more of a separate entity). So in the end, while reading/hearing "they" for the Inklings feels fine, seeing people refering to Corrin as "they" feels way more uneasy than seeing them going back and forth between "he" and "she". But that's just an opinion.[[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 08:36, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| :So basically, you’re saying that only Corrin and Robin should still be given default pronouns? Odd, since those two are actually part of why I started the proposal in the first place (since I never see male Corrin used at all, it doesn’t make sense to refer to Corrin as “he” if it’s a “she” in those contexts. A similar, but less extreme thing can be applied to Robin.) [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 11:05, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Corrin and Robin, but also the Villager and the Wii Fit Trainer, even if for both of those two, the "they" doesn't feel weird to read because both "villager" and "trainer" are common names that have a plural form : you can say "the villagers" and "the trainers", but you can't really say "the corrins" or "the robins" (also I don't think what you "see" is relevant, SSBU sold millions, how big is the part of the community you can see ?) [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:18, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::I’ll state 3 sources for when I notnally see female Corrin and Robin: Tournaments, Online, and people I personally know. People I personally know is the least accurate group, since it’s the smallest spectrum, but nearly I know changes their costume to female whenever playing Robin and Corrin. The only time I’ve ever seen anyone pick the male variants is from selecting Random. Online, again, I encounter mostly female Corrin and Robin when facing those characters at all. Even in videos that show online gameplay, Robin and Corrin are female 90% of the time. Tournaments are the only time I see people truly pick male Corrin or Robin, but even then, it’s rare. About 75% of the tournament videos I’ve seen with either character use the female variant. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 19:34, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::I know many people have a hard time to understand it, but the competitive scene is not representative of the smash community. SSBU already sold 12 million copies, how many people play in tournament ? 1 000 ? 10 000 ? Even if there was like 100 000 people playing at a competitive level, that would still be less than 1% of the smash community. So even your most accurate source is still not accurate enough. So arguing about how the wiki should refer to either Corrin or Robin for "proper wiki" purpose is fine, but the whole "everybody use the female skin" argument has no weight. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 04:03, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| Additionally, as I stated before, now that infoboxes can have alternate characters in them, I was thinking of actually referring to both Alph and the Koopalings now. As in, these actually will be plural, not a singular “they”. Only Corrin and Robin are arguably the same individual, and those could easily do with an alternate universe explanation (where multiple variations of the same individual can exist simultaneously, such as the 4 Peter Parkers in the new Spider Man movie) [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 11:05, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Honestly, if a first sentence talks about Bowser Jr, the following ones should be "he". If another sentence talk about the Koopalings, the following ones should be "they", it's just text consistency, it's that simple. So both "he" and "they" are fine, depending on if you last used "Bowser Jr" or "the Koopalings". [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:18, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::Example : Bowser Jr drop HIS clown car when HE use HIS up special. The koopalings all have the same up aerial, but THEY all use THEIR own wand when doing so. The use of "he" and "they" depending on the context, feels pretty natural to me here. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 14:29, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| I’d like to make one more point: although Smashwiki is not official, there is almost never any reason to ignore something official and do something unofficial instead. Using pronouns regarding the default gender is one of those. Just because something is not the default option, doesn’t mean that it ahould be shoved aside. The FS meter is turned off by default. Stage Morph is turned off by default. Why should referring to the actual characters do that then? If they truly weren’t supposed to be referred to, they wouldn’t be in the game at all. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 22:45, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| 1. I don't think it's a good idea reopening discussion here, especially since it seems like it's over. I may be wrong however.<br>
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| 2. Zackray uses male Corrin. There have been people who used Male Robin before (can't come up with it right now, not making an excuse however). Also I don't see how this connects with the gender-neutral argument.<br>
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| 3. Not trying to sound rude, but what does your final point (the one above) connect to your argument? From what I read it supports using the default gender. [[User:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Times New Roman"><span style="color: red;">SugarCookie</span></span>]] [[User talk:SugarCookie420|<span style="font-family:Impact"><span style="color: green;">420</span></span>]] 23:13, 27 February 2019 (EST)
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| :1. I’m not entirely sure if discussion even is over. YoshiRyu added his part to the debate just today. <br>
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| :2. I never said Male Corrin was absolutely never used. I said that in a '''almost''' every case I see, wheteher it be online, people I know, or many tournaments, Corrin is used as a female, so using male pronouns doesn’t make sense when Corrin isn’t even used as a male in many contexts <br>
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| :3. The final point is saying that just because something is the not the default, it shouldn’t be ignored on most of the page (I’m aware that the infobox proposal passed, but saying “he” when the infobox can now show female just doesn’t work anymore. I’m currently even working on changing Alph and the Koopalings to being mentioned on Olimar and Bowser Jr.’s pages. Saying “they” isn’t singular anymore. It’s plural.) [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 01:39, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::I added my part yesterday because I discovered the discussion yesterday. I thought some non english native user point of view could be a nice input to add. [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 04:03, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| * I was just about to give my input on the topic. Using "they/them" pronouns is not only the official stance by Nintendo (even though SmashWiki is unofficial), but it feels more like it refers to the character in general as opposed to the specific default alt. I agree that the "everyone uses the female alt" argument holds no weight, as it is highly subjective; what matters is that alternate-gendered skins for the character ''exist'' in the first place, and as such, the character in general is "they/them" as opposed to "he/him" or "she/her" as those imply some form of "canonicity" regarding the default skins when it doesn't always hold (e.g. both genders of Inkling in World of Light, female Corrin in the Classic Mode mural). I understand that it's more difficult for non-native English speakers to understand, but English, as a language, is always growing and changing, and using "they/them" ''is'' proper grammar, and it never hurts to learn. For example, while there are no gender-nonbinary characters in Smash, many nonbinary people in real life use "they/them" pronouns for themselves in the singular and consider "he/him" or "she/her" to be incorrect. Just my two cents.--[[User:Darthrai|Darthrai]] ([[User talk:Darthrai|talk]]) 08:26, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| :Don't be condescending toward non native english speaker please, the point of this wiki is to provide informations about smash, not to teach english. Honestly, the singular "they" will always feel wrong, no matter how hard you want to justify it (they should have made up new words instead of recycling the plural ones). It would even be more natural to simply see "he/she" or "she/he" written everytime you refer to a gender swapping character like Corrin (so time to argue now about "she/he" being more relevant for Corrin than "he/she"). [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 09:05, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::I didn't mean to be condescending (and I apologize if I came across that way), and it would be best not to let this degenerate into irrelevant arguments. But as a native English speaker, I can confirm that "they/them" is proper grammar. The fact that one person (regardless of English proficiency) is not familiar/comfortable with the use of such a term does not invalidate that term, and whether that person claims that the term "feels" wrong or not shouldn't matter. (It would be a different matter if we were discussing language that delegitimizes or discriminates against certain groups, but nongendered pronouns do the ''exact opposite'' by being more inclusive.) --[[User:Darthrai|Darthrai]] ([[User talk:Darthrai|talk]]) 09:25, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::They/them is moreso because there actually are two genders. Gender-neutral was probably not the best way of explaining it. Anyways, I notified Toomai before discussion spirals out of control (because we have an exact draw on who wants what, as seen by SugarCookie240’s coujt above, which includes everyone but Darthrai and YoshiRyu), and he told me that he would update he Manual of Style today. Basically, the new rule appears to be that both default gender and “they/them” are acceptable now, though which one is preferred is different per page. On non-fighter pages and origin sections, “they/them” will now be preferred, while default pronouns will now be preferred on XXX (SSBX) sections. In either case, using the non-recommended pronoun is fine, and removing pronouns entirely is also acceptable. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 09:33, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::That's a decent compromise, but it looks like you're trying to take control of the discussion, and [[wikipedia:Sex and gender distinction|please be careful with that "there actually are two genders" bit]]... --[[User:Darthrai|Darthrai]] ([[User talk:Darthrai|talk]]) 09:36, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::This discussion has been going on for three months. I’d say it’s a good time to just roll with the conpromise for now, especially since that compromise has been completely ignored despite being one of the first thinga to come up during discussion. Also, don’t bring politics into this, and I was refereing to Corrin and Robin actually having two genders, rather than none. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 09:46, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| ::::::Got it, I totally agree with the compromise as stated (and, as previously stated, I'm aware that there are no nonbinary characters in ''Smash'' apart from Mewtwo arguably). --[[User:Darthrai|Darthrai]] ([[User talk:Darthrai|talk]]) 09:47, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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| :::::::I'm just providing my non native english speaker viewpoint (while being aware that I'm only one person in the vast internet) : "they" feels weird as it is naturally associated with the idea of plurality (and that's how my brain genuinely translates it in my own language), "he" doesn't, "she" doesn't, "he/she" wouldn't, "she/he" wouldn't. Now you can take my input and do whatever you want with it, I'm not gonna be the one fighting over wording ;) [[User:YoshiRyu|YoshiRyu]] ([[User talk:YoshiRyu|talk]]) 09:56, 28 February 2019 (EST)
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