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| Seriously, Peach is good. She has great mindgames with the Turnip, can aerial combo well, Usmash can kill as early as 80%. I just don't know why people hate her so much. [[User:JtM|JtM =^]]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 23:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC) | | Seriously, Peach is good. She has great mindgames with the Turnip, can aerial combo well, Usmash can kill as early as 80%. I just don't know why people hate her so much. [[User:JtM|JtM =^]]] ([[User talk:JtM|talk]]) 23:13, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
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| | | Anybody who is a Kirby character. [[User:Meteorite|Meteorite]] ([[User talk:Meteorite|talk]]) 23:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC) |
| :KIRBY! YAY >('o'v)[[User:Learner4|Learner4]] ([[User talk:Learner4|talk]]) 01:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC) | | :KIRBY! YAY >('o'v)[[User:Learner4|Learner4]] ([[User talk:Learner4|talk]]) 01:14, 31 October 2008 (UTC) |
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| :::Link's only half-decent spacing move is his zair, which is okay due to having very little landing lag, but it also does very little damage and knockback. His sword attacks are too slow and laggy to be effective. His up tilt and back aerial are okay combo moves, but they don't compensate for his difficulty comboing. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 17:29, 10 November 2013 (EST) | | :::Link's only half-decent spacing move is his zair, which is okay due to having very little landing lag, but it also does very little damage and knockback. His sword attacks are too slow and laggy to be effective. His up tilt and back aerial are okay combo moves, but they don't compensate for his difficulty comboing. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 17:29, 10 November 2013 (EST) |
| ::::Of course, you have to think; why do Ike and King Dedede have such good spacing? It's their aerial attacks. Look at Link, Ike and Dedede's N-Airs. They are all good spacing moves, albeit Link's is the least used, only due to a prejudice of the attack. If you use it at 50% and above, you will see a noticeable change in knock back; such as the case of Ike and Dedede. Now look at the F-airs; Ike's is the slowest, but it gives considerable knockback. However, Link's traps opponents to lead into other strategies. Dedede's can do both. Now we go into recoveries; Ike's is downright abysmal in horizontal or vertical range, depending on if you either use his Up Special or Side Special, respectively. King Dedede, despite having some good amounts of jumping, can be knocked out of the stage further than Link due to his enormous build. This makes Dedede resort to his recovery move, albeit him being knocked too far from the stage to recover. As for Link, I agree, Timson, he does have a bad recovery, but if you go in-depth on his recovery, you can see that his recovery has been mostly unchanged, only if you do not include Bomb Recovery and Tether Recovery. Onto speed, of course, Link is slow, but Ike is much slower. Making it more precise, you need to time Ike's attacks much more perfectly than Link's. King Dedede, on the other hand, is the fastest of the three with ground attacks. In air, however, I have to give it to King Dedede. In power and knockback, all of them can do very decent knockback at low percentages, but of course, Link and Ike are easier to predict than Dedede, Ike being the most predictable. In the air, Link's knockback can shift fast once damage is high enough. Using Link's N-Air, F-Air and B-Air is crucial to his advantage in air. If I have to say, King Dedede is the best of the three, Link in the middle, and Ike, the worst of the three. Of course, things change. They always do. I just play Smash to study the game, trying to find new things left undiscovered. '''EDIT:''' Of course, I left out something; Link's N-Air and B-Air can have very decent spacing range due to them ending before Link lands, so Link can use his second jump and attack again, should the opponent still be close to him. [[User:Requiem fo Ice|Requiem fo Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem fo Ice|talk]]) 17:48, 10 November 2013 (EST) | | ::::Of course, you have to think; why do Ike and King Dedede have such good spacing? It's their aerial attacks. Look at Link, Ike and Dedede's N-Airs. They are all good spacing moves, albeit Link's is the least used, only due to a prejudice of the attack. If you use it at 50% and above, you will see a noticeable change in knock back; such as the case of Ike and Dedede. Now look at the F-airs; Ike's is the slowest, but it gives considerable knockback. However, Link's traps opponents to lead into other strategies. Dedede's can do both. Now we go into recoveries; Ike's is downright abysmal in horizontal or vertical range, depending on if you either use his Up Special or Side Special, respectively. King Dedede, despite having some good amounts of jumping, can be knocked out of the stage further than Link due to his enormous build. This makes Dedede resort to his recovery move, albeit him being knocked too far from the stage to recover. As for Link, I agree, Timson, he does have a bad recovery, but if you go in-depth on his recovery, you can see that his recovery has been mostly unchanged, only if you do not include Bomb Recovery and Tether Recovery. Onto speed, of course, Link is slow, but Ike is much slower. Making it more precise, you need to time Ike's attacks much more perfectly than Link's. King Dedede, on the other hand, is the fastest of the three with ground attacks. In air, however, I have to give it to King Dedede. In power and knockback, all of them can do very decent knockback at low percentages, but of course, Link and Ike are easier to predict than Dedede, Ike being the most predictable. In the air, Link's knockback can shift fast once damage is high enough. Using Link's N-Air, F-Air and B-Air is crucial to his advantage in air. If I have to say, King Dedede is the best of the three, Link in the middle, and Ike, the worst of the three. Of course, things change. They always do. I just play Smash to study the game, trying to find new things left undiscovered. '''EDIT:''' Of course, I left out something; Link's N-Air and B-Air can have very decent spacing range due to them ending before Link lands, so Link can use his second jump and attack again, should the opponent still be close to him. [[User:Requiem fo Ice|Requiem fo Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem fo Ice|talk]]) 17:48, 10 November 2013 (EST) |
| :::::Dedede's nair isn't exactly a good spacing move, his bair is what he uses. Ike's nair is also mediocre compared with his fair and bair to a lesser extent.
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| :::::Link's ''Brawl'' recovery is much worse than in ''Melee'', as you can do much more effective bomb jumping strategies in ''Melee'' (throwing the bomb up then using up B into it), plus the wall grapple is so much more useful in ''Melee'' since it can grab onto areas other than the ledge on some stages to avoid edgehogging, which you can't do at all in ''Brawl''. Thus Link should usually use his tether when close to the edge, but most opponents will easily be able to run off the stage then grab it. Otherwise, he's completely reliant on up B, with the ''very'' situational timed bomb jump being an option that mostly requires luck (pulling out a bomb at the right time). As I explained before, his up B is a very poor recovery move.
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| :::::Dedede doesn't always have to resort to up B like you said, due to his midair jumps and bair/fair allowing some protection. Plus, his up B is damn hard for most characters to stop, due to its priority and super armor.
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| :::::Ike's recovery may give poor distance, but it allows really great protection. The first few hits of his up B can hit edgehoggers, then the final hit can easily be landed to meteor smash them. If he is knocked away from the stage so that he has to recover horizontally from high up, his side B at least allows a pretty good horizontal distance.
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| :::::Ike generally has more favourable combo options than Link (especially his amazing jab cancels) and his KO moves are usually considered to be easier to land and more effective. While Link and Ike both have their decent spacing options, Ike's fair is known for its huge horizontal and vertical range that generally gives him better spacing, along with things like f-tilt and RAR bair.
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| :::::And about Dedede, he is certainly the best of the three, no one can really argue with that. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 11:15, 11 November 2013 (EST)
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| ::::::If you do not include the infamous "Bomb Jump" nor tether recovery, which I explained previously, Link's recovery has not changed whatsoever. The '''strategies may have changed''', but the '''move has not'''. A little note is that if any short stage, like Battlefield, is chosen, Link can "Battlefield Bomb Jump" to the other side, making edge-hogging nearly ineffective; of course, if you happen to stage spike, and not tech, it's going to backfire.
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| ::::::However, if Dedede uses up all of his jumps, it's pretty much over for him, should he 1) Not be able to recover, 2) land on the ground instead of the ledge; this ends up being a bad decision against powerful characters, or 3) recover cancel...
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| ::::::Ike's recovery does have a few "side effects" to it. There's the "6th Ledge Grab Fail", gimping, "certain special attacks", etc. And as for his side special...he's '''REALLY''' screwed if he is blown away by Link's Gale Boomerang; and you call Ike's Side B "effective".
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| ::::::Let's see here; Link also has much more options when the opponent reaches 50% damage; this includes propelling the opponent with a down throw and using either N-Air, F-Air or B-Air, DACUS>Aerial Attack and many other tactics. Link can also use AA>S-Tilt (which he uses his S-Tilt instead of his third jab), D-Tilt>S-Tilt, etc. (Again, another reason that I have to do a Smash Bros. In-Depth series.)
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| ::::::Dedede is quite the good fighter, too. (I still say Link should be 19th, the balanced position, though.) [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 01:11, 12 November 2013 (EST)
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| :::::::Yeah you could bomb jump under the stage, but you need to be at a ''very'' specific percentage, and it's also ''very'' situational, along with being ''very'' difficult to actually set up. If you're knocked from the stage at the percentages necessary for doing that, you probably won't have long enough to wait for the bomb to explode, and even if it does, you definitely won't be able to go under the entire stage. That doesn't nearly compensate.
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| :::::::I didn't call Ike's side B an all-around effective move, I said it can gain good distance if you're knocked high horizontally. Of course it leaves him vulnerable and it's easily telegraphed, that's not refutable at all. Ike's recovery, as I said, gains poor distance, but his up B gives him among the best protection for any recovery move, and since the distance Ike gains is still adequate to recover in most situations, this immense recovery protection puts his recovery on the poor side, but not completely terrible like Link's.
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| :::::::You mentioned some Link combos. Yeah, they are effective if you can actually land them. Ike also has many usable combos, most notably in his jab cancels. His jab can cancel into itself repeatedly to rack up 25%+ damage, and it can easily cancel into moves such as grab, u-tilt, and d-tilt. Ike's jab is also much more difficult to punish than those combos, as even when shielded, characters with average to poor OoS options have difficulty beating it, plus the third hit can punish someone who spot dodges the first two. Ike's individual moves such as fair, bair, u-tilt, and so on compliment this. The Link combos you mentioned, most of them sound rather punishable, and if one keeps trying to get a grab to use d-throw, they'll become really predictable. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 12:00, 12 November 2013 (EST)
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| ::::::::Link's zair is not a "half-decent" spacing move, it's really good. It has really long range, comes out fast, and has no landing lag (If you look an attack like Marth's fair that's good at spacing, those are the properties that make it good at spacing), and doing low damage and knockback isn't a significant factor in spacing, as long as it does enough to push the opponent away from you it's fine. His projectiles can also help in spacing and camping. A combo is something that's used to rack up damage at low percents, and Link's zair, bair, and up tilt, can lead into each other well and/or deal a lot of damage, and the lag on any of those attacks is not as bad as you are saying it is. Ike's combo ability and spacing may be better than Link's but that does not mean that Link's combo ability is bad, and just because a character is low tier doesn't mean they have absolutely no positive traits and that they are to be regarded as 100% terrible. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 16:46, 12 November 2013 (EST)
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| :::::::::Link's zair's range isn't actually that long, it's above average, but not excellent like Samus's zair. I didn't say Link's combo ability is absolutely bad just because he's low tier, I said it's worse than Ike's. No way in hell did I say Link has no positive traits and/or is 100% terrible. [[User:Scr7|<span style="color:#0000FF"">S</span><span style="color:#7F7FFF">c</span><span style="color:#00FFFF">r</span><span style="color:#FF7F00">7</span>]][[File:Scr7 sig.png|link=]]([[User talk:Scr7|talk]] · [[Special:Contributions/Scr7|contribs]]) 16:50, 12 November 2013 (EST)
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| ::::::::::Link's zair is still one of the best-ranged aerial attacks in the game. [[User:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Awesome'''</span>]] [[User talk:Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''Cardinal'''</span>]] [[Special:Contributions/Ac2k|<span style="color: red;">'''2000'''</span>]] 19:20, 12 November 2013 (EST)
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| :::::::::::(Wow, so many replies.) I have a few more ''good'' things to say about Link, Dedede and Ike, respectively. If you can have enough time, you can easily air dodge out of a '''vertical''' Bomb Jump to regain momentum faster and more efficiently with Link; this can also happen with Z-air, which, if close to a ledge, grab it (as long as there are no edgehoggers). He can also still edgeguard with Spin Attack, just save it for higher percentages, unlike his S-Tilt. Finally, Link can also cancel his own jab, which, like Ike's, can give Link more options; just simply use the first two parts, walk a little, and use a stronger attack. With King Dedede, due to his surprising recovery height, does have enough options against the opponent, including a mind-game by using an attack to force the opponent to get up or stage spike them, so he can recover more easily. He can also, like Kirby, use his Neutral Special move to take the opponent down; however, he has an easier time to recover, and he can also shoot the opponent '''under''' the stage, making the opponent desperate (unless it's Samus, MK, Kirby, Luigi, Lucario, Peach, etc.). And with Ike, he does have a combo ability, which can be sometimes devastating, but the timing needs to be perfect. You don't necessarily need to "Ken Combo" with Ike, just time it well with a good N-Air>DJ>D-Air; his D-Air is extraordinarily useful on Halberd or Delfino Plaza when the stages go up, but the timing and damage need to be perfect. And as I have learned, against Link, if he is blown away by the Gale Boomerang, he may have a chance to be blown upward instead when using Side Special. That's all I can say to my knowledge so far. [[User:Requiem of Ice|Requiem of Ice]] ([[User talk:Requiem of Ice|talk]]) 19:13, 13 November 2013 (EST)
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| Mr. Game & Watch. He may be knocked back very easily but damn, that bucket braking technique could be considered broken by some. He also has some amazing finishers with low start-up lag, (down smash anyone?). He definitely deserves a higher placement than 16. [[User:FireMario1534|FireMario1534]] ([[User talk:FireMario1534|talk]]) 21:07, 18 November 2013 (EST)
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| mr. game and awesome get teh pikachu for meh! ive been banned from scratch! halp meh! Gime me a Mewtwo! <small>—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:Valehd|Valehd]] ([[User talk:Valehd|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Valehd|contribs]]) 17:18, 12 August 2014 (EDT)</sma
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| as long as it has something to do with Pokémon, I LOVE IT!!
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| by the way...ZOMFG WTF IS UP WITH CHARIZARDS PAGE! IT DOSEN'T SAY THAT HE IS TUH BESTEST CHARACTER IN BRAWL!!!!!!!!!!!ZOMG WTF!?!?!?!?!?:)--[[User:Charazard360|Charazard360]] ([[User talk:Charazard360|talk]]) 18:28, 4 March 2015 (EST)
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