View source for Forum:Axe the most recent non-smash appearances segments

{{forumheader|Proposals}}<!-- Please put your content below this line. Be sure to sign your edits with four tildes: ~~~~ -->
{{Proposal|failed|2=There is something to be said about establishing the standards for this parameter, but there is only opposition to removing it outright. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:55, May 10, 2023 (EDT)}}
Hi, despite just making an account, I'm actually [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Special:Contributions/68.4.176.97&offset=&limit=500&target=68.4.176.97 a longtime editor] here.  [[User_talk:Omega_Tyrant#Question|I made an (admittedly faulty) question where the response was that cameos shouldn't count]], and [[User_talk:The_Jacketed_Terrapin#Should_rereleases_count_as_appearances?|asked another user if rereleases should count as "latest appearances"]], I decided to make a proposal based off of their responses, especially after the second one said. "I'll say that I would be in complete support of just axing the "Most recent non-Smash appearance" segment altogether, but I am certain the majority of users here would absolutely oppose the idea of that". I actually think this is a pretty decent idea based off of the [https://www.ssbwiki.com/Special:Contributions/157.242.208.253 edits I have made in the past few days]. There seems to be a surprisingly large amount of situations on whether to count something as a new appearance is questionable, in addition to the segment needing to be constantly updated, and I actually don't see a "latest appearance" section on Wikipedia. To give some examples:

*A good amount of characters, such as the ones from Banjo-Kazooie, Street Fighter, and most of the ones from Mega Man, have compilation rereleases listed as their most recent appearances. How do rereleases even count for this section? For the most part, they're very obviously the same game.

*What about single game rereleases? Olimar/Alph and Sheik have HD rereleases of single games listed as their most recent appearances. 

*What about first official translation rereleases like Earthbound Beginnings or the first Fire Emblem? Those weren't counted, but they are clearly more notable than compilations.

*What about rereleases that do change something notable but the general public agrees they're not new games? For example, NSMBU, Mario Kart 8, DK Tropical Freeze. What about rereleases packaged in with a new game like Bowser's Fury? Luigi and Peach aren't in the Bowser's Fury game, but are bundled in with the old game it came with.

*We live an an era where old games receive updates and DLC, some of which has development time equivalent to a new game, like Cuphead. As for updates, mobile games like Mario Kart Tour and Fire Emblem Heroes constantly put out new versions of characters already in the game. They're not new games, but they are new projects that involve these characters.

*I get that costumes don't count as appearances, but some of them are extremely hard to distinguish from their source characters. I'm kind of sick of mentioning Mario Maker (though one last point I want to give is that some of the costumes, like Link or Sonic, are directly ripped from their source games), but I had to remove Doom Slayer's most recent appearance as Fortnite since it technically isn't him, even though they look identical. There's even trivia on Sans' page saying that Ultimate is his first 3D appearance, which, while true since the costume is indistinguishable from him, is a misnomer since it actually isn't Sans.

*Simon's latest appearance is listed as Brawlhalla, but he's just a skin for a character already in the game. This ties back into the costume stuff from earlier: does this really count? I don't know the context/lore behind Brawlhalla skins, but it seems like this is basically in the same boat regardless of the lore.

*For a while and until I removed it yesterday, Snake and Goemon's latest appearance was listed as Super Bomberman R, but when looking that that up I see that's just a Bomberman that looks like Snake. I don't think these are costumes, but they're clearly not the actual characters, but they're also obvious, visual references to the characters.

*Kazuya and Heihachi's latest appearance was listed as Astro's Playroom for a while. From what I can find, their "appearances" are just robots with wigs and doing their fighting moves. Very obvious reference, but just as obvious not the actual characters. Removing the "most recent non-smash appearances" segments would also remove the possibility of obvious discrepancies such as this and the Snake one from being added.

*What about in-universe merchandise cameos? Those are clearly not the character themselves, but you can still see their exact likenesses in that game. Yoshi models are in multiple Metal Gear games for example.

*Cameos in general are just not notable appearances. A poster of Little Mac and Doc Louis is in Luigi's Mansion 3, sure, but you have to squint to see it. Wii Fit Trainer's page says she's in WarioWare Gold, but I can't find any proof of her being in there, though I wouldn't be surprised if it was as a tiny image on the Wii Menu microgame. The Arms characters have their latest appearance as Karaoke Joysound, but it's just prerecorded gameplay footage that plays in the background.

In short, I'm starting to be convinced that this segment has too many questionable/technical appearances to be worth keeping. The first appearances section doesn't nearly have this same issue because most of the time technical debuts like Sonic, Byleth, Banjo, Roy, and Cappy are promotional for what the general public considers their true first appearance. I realize this is a really big change to suggest, but I would like you to please consider this. Like I said, Wikipedia only lists first appearances and omits latest appearances, and I have to agree with that. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 22:20, December 8, 2022 (EST)
:I think the issue is less "the most recent appearance thing is unnecessarily complicated", and more "it's unnecessarily complicated because people are inconsistent with what counts as a most recent appearance". Personally, if the ending consensus is that we keep it around, then I believe a set of rules would have to be established so that we aren't scrambling around from page to page arguing about stuff like "why does a Fortnite/Brawlhalla/Fall Guys costume count but not one from Super Mario Maker?".

:That said, I myself am '''neutral''' on the original proposal, though I will concede that the benefits of getting rid of the most recent appearance thing outweigh the benefits of keeping it—while it may be cool to see and may point viewers to a game that they may not have known a certain character was in, updating everything constantly is nevertheless a hassle, and, at present, there are the aforementioned inconsistencies that lead to forum posts like these. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]] [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: green;">'''the Festive Gamer'''</span>]] 02:03, December 9, 2022 (EST)
::Updating everything constantly is a hassle, but it's also prone to just plain oversights. I was unaware that Wii Fit Trainer's WarioWare cameo is via amiibo, but then I found out that Captain Falcon and Palutena also appear this way, and nobody caught this for 4 years. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 02:10, December 9, 2022 (EST)

:'''Oppose''' - I think the section is worth keeping, it's a valuable fact to list, just maybe that some guidelines need to be laid out. --[[User:Meester Tweester|Meester Tweester]] ([[User talk:Meester Tweester|talk]]) 02:19, December 9, 2022 (EST)

I '''oppose''' removing this information despite the often-annoying semantics issues involved. I think it serves a useful purpose analogous to the "newest entry in a series" listing - something [[The Legend of Zelda (universe)|both SmashWiki]] [[wikipedia:The Legend of Zelda|and Wikipedia]] list in infoboxes. Also, while it's reasonable to say we may need more definite ground rules to deal with odd edge cases here and there, a) for the most part the already-existing, informal rules are pretty clear and b) no set of rules is going to reasonably cover every edge case, so some things will inevitably need resolving on a case-by-case basis. [[User:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="dodgerblue"><span style="font-family:Verdana;">'''Miles''']] <font color="silver">([[User talk:Miles of SmashWiki|<font color="silver">talk]])</font></font></span></font> 12:36, December 10, 2022 (EST)
:You make a decent argument for why odd edge cases might not be the dealbreaker with removing the most recent non-smash appearances, but a big issue I also have is oversights that take literal years to catch though. For example, Falcon and Palutena didn't have WarioWare Gold, a 4 year old game, listed as their most appearance, despite appearing in the same capacity as Rob and Wii Fit Trainer, who did have it listed. Or Snake's latest appearance being listed as Super Bomberman R, which, while not a costume, is clearly not him. And while it's useful to note a cameo in something the reader would have otherwise not known about, that argument dies the instant a series gets another installment and said character is in it. Also, with the Wikipedia argument, listing and constantly updating a series' latest entry is significantly easier to keep track of than a character's latest appearance, which is why Wikipedia omits the latter. Instead of having to determine what counts as a cameo, they instead just have to deal with which rereleases count as new entries, which in itself is already kind of a pain. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 15:30, December 10, 2022 (EST)

I '''oppose''' removing that section, for the points laid out above, and it's a fun little valuable thing to list. Like someone could that see that in go "Oh, this character is in this game that recently released, nice." [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool 🦊Furry🦊 Gamer</span>]] ([[User talk:Awesomelink234|talk]]) 23:16, December 11, 2022 (EST)
:Which points specifically? That it serves a useful purpose? I agree that it does have its uses, but I don't feel like its valuable enough for the hassle of constant maintaining. As Aidanzapunk said, "updating everything constantly is nevertheless a hassle, and, at present, there are the aforementioned inconsistencies". [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 03:12, December 12, 2022 (EST)

'''Oppose''' - I am fine if it remains but I prefer if it's known what is allowed to be listed or not. [[File:ThegameandwatchIcon2.png|20px]] [[User:Thegameandwatch|<span style=" color: Green;">'''Thegameandwatch'''</span>]] [[File:Thegameandwatch signature icon.png|20px]] [[User talk:Thegameandwatch|''<span style="color: blue;">The Nerd </span>'']] 09:32, December 12, 2022 (EST)

This is the [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Simon_Belmont&diff=1746279&oldid=1734921 3rd time] [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Simon_Belmont&diff=1750578&oldid=1748641 I've had to] [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Simon_Belmont&diff=1763166&oldid=1761584 removr Brawlhalla as Simon's latest appearance], because the way this wiki handles skins for other characters in terms of latest appearances has been inconsistent, and like I said many times before, this entire section is more trouble than it's worth keeping. Please, to all who opposed, reconsider, because keeping latest appearances up to date, consistent with each other, and even agreeing ehat counts as an "appearance", are all a gigantic pain in the ass. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 17:16, February 26, 2023 (EST)

Adding again, [https://www.ssbwiki.com/index.php?title=Fighter&curid=425&diff=1778221&oldid=1778219 this type of trivia] is part of why I have a problem with not counting costumes as appearances, and if there's so much inconsistency in its agreements it should just be gone entirely. Regardless of the caveat of the Mario Maker costumes not being the actual characters, Lucas is still directly acknowledged in an international game with his exact likeness. It's kind of asinine to claim that he's never been acknowledged in a non-smash internationally released game, and the latest appearances definitely contributes to this type of stigma. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 04:27, March 26, 2023 (EDT)
:Where in that trivia point did it say Lucas was "never acknowledged"? Putting words into it that weren't there, it outright says the character himself never appeared. Also this forum is an irrelevant place to complain about that edit. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 04:48, March 26, 2023 (EDT)
::I conveyed my statement very poorly, my bad. A better way I should have said it is that a trivia point that says the character himself hasn't appeared in a non-smash international game implies that Lucas also hasn't acknowledged in any such game either, despite the fact that only the former is true. I genuinely think it's bad trivia because it can create a false implication, even indirectly. Also, I'll try not to gripe too much in this proposal, but the specific reason why I even care so much about the latest appearance parameter is because it leads to trivia like this, and the specific trivia point you added is the specific one that bothers me the most about this parameter. It's absolutely relevant to this proposal, but I understand that I came off as griping right there. [[User:Unnamed anon|Unnamed anon]] ([[User talk:Unnamed anon|talk]]) 04:58, March 26, 2023 (EDT)
:::For the last time, the Mario Maker "characters" is just [https://www.mariowiki.com/Costume_Mario Mario in a costume], not the actual character, end of. And no, it has nothing to do with "acknowledgement", it is very clear Lucas himself has not appeared in an international non-Smash game, stop making up implication that is not there. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 05:45, March 26, 2023 (EDT)

Seeing how the idea of removing this infobox parameter has only gotten opposition and no real support in the six months it has been up, I am failing this proposal. Any discussion about establishing the "rules" for it can still take place however. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[File: TyranitarMS.png ]] 15:55, May 10, 2023 (EDT)