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| Although, I wish people based their views of this more on common sense, not on this whole fear of appearing sexist bullshit. [[User:Papayazzi|Papayazzi]] ([[User talk:Papayazzi|talk]]) 05:19, 19 November 2015 (EST) | | Although, I wish people based their views of this more on common sense, not on this whole fear of appearing sexist bullshit. [[User:Papayazzi|Papayazzi]] ([[User talk:Papayazzi|talk]]) 05:19, 19 November 2015 (EST) |
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| I won't fight a deletion for this, but I will point out that no one here really provided a strong refute to Semicolon's post back when this was last seriously disputed. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 11:53, 19 November 2015 (EST)
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| :Here's the way I see it.
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| :On one hand, it is an intriguing collection of data that one might find when exploring the entirety of Smash, so there's at least some significance. On the other, it's a very small collection of data, and arguably has little importance. That is what I'm getting when reading this whole page (specifically, OT and Semicolon's debate a few sections back).
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| :Having the category is, again, important, but we don't have any other minorities categorized. Female gamers as a whole, while increasing as of recent times, are still very rare to find, and fewer are actually competitive gamers; that said, I don't see a reason to represent such a small minority through a category like this. That all being said, I '''support''' deletion of this category. [[File:AidanzapunkSig1.png|20px]][[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: red;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: orange;">'''the Wandering Space Warrior'''</span>]][[File:AidanzapunkSig2.png|20px]] 12:01, 19 November 2015 (EST)
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| :I wasn't really into this at first, but OT's right, in that Semicolon poses a good argument. This category does indeed fall within the purposes of this wiki. There's no reason to delete it. Why are people on Smashwiki? To learn something. Maybe they're looking for something specific like how much damage an attack does, and maybe while they're here they'll come across something that piques their interest and then see or click on it. Either way. Most Smashers are male. What if someone was like "Oh, look at all these men. I wonder if there are any female Smashers?" Would this not be helpful in finding that out? Deleting this means one less notable things you can find here, and I'm pretty sure we as a wiki should cover notable things such as this. That's kinda why this wiki exists. It is uncommon to find female gamers and even more rare to find competitive female gamers. Also, why push to delete this when there is a whole lot of useless trivia around here? We have the crowd cheers, the victory poses, the rumors, the means of how characters are revealed. Is that all not minute and pointless? Yet we have some of that because some it is somewhat notable, and deemed "interesting" by whatever measure or gauge we choose to use. "___ is the only ____ to ____." "____ is one of _____ to _____." We have categories for Smashers in different continents and countries. We also have categories for those involved in the wiki, who moderate Smashboards, and who are on YouTube, who are a "minority" overall, just like female smashers. You can't deny they're a minority, or a highly possible point of interest. I personally don't find it interesting, but you can bet your ass others do as well. Sorry if it feels like I'm rambling here, but with all this, I'm changing my position to '''Strong Oppose.''' [[User:Papayazzi|Papayazzi]] ([[User talk:Papayazzi|talk]]) 17:27, 19 November 2015 (EST)
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| After thinking about it a bit more, I'm going to officially '''oppose''' the deletion of this. My feelings from 5 years ago when I argued to delete this as a wiki newbie are still the same, I don't like this category and would prefer it to be gone. But at the same time, "I don't like it" isn't a valid reason for deletion and sure as hell isn't a remote refute to Semicolon's post. Additionally, if we were to delete it now without any strong reason for doing so, it just looks like we're exploiting the absence of Semicolon and ClarinetHawk to get it deleted, when nothing has changed since they successfully argued for it staying, something I find to be a violation of the wiki's core principals.
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| So until I see an actual good refute, or the amount of notable female smashers explodes to where it's no longer a rarity to see them, I won't be supporting the deletion of this. <span style="font-family:Edwardian Script ITC; font-size:12pt">[[User:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Omega</span>]] [[User talk:Omega Tyrant|<span style="color:forestgreen">Tyrant</span>]]</span> [[Image: TyranitarMS.png ]] 20:20, 20 November 2015 (EST)
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| :Changing my opinion to '''oppose'''. As I think about it, we as humans never accomplished anything by being overly sensitive over subjects, and the more I think about it, the more it makes sense that this exists, as there's a 10:1 ratio between the genders notably involved in the Smash scene. This has to stay, at least until if and when the day comes where more notable female smashers enter the scene. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 01:04, 22 November 2015 (EST)
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| '''Strong Oppose''' Regardless of balance or not, since females make a small number of the population, they'd be considered unique. We don't need a "Male smashers" category however. [[:User:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|ZeldaStarfoxfan2164]] ([[User talk:ZeldaStarfoxfan2164|talk]]) is a never lover boy 01:16, 22 November 2015 (EST)
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| '''Neutral.''' I see how many people are supportive in the deletion of this category; because a matched pair of X chromosomes should not determine a player's skill. But then, reiterating what other contributors say below me, why are people on smash wiki in the first place? To learn. This category has educational value, but seems a little sexist. As compromise, why don't we create a category of all male smashers? Or as [[User:Gabo 2oo|Gabo 2oo]] suggests, why don't we have a "list of smashers" with gender included -- if it's ''THAT'' big of a deal? [[User:Ubiquittea|<span style="color:#008; text-shadow:-1px -1px #00bb77;">'''Ubiquittea'''</span>]] [[User talk:Serpent_King|(<span style="color: blue;">talk</span>)]] 21:45, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
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| :Please keep in mind this discussion ended quite a while ago. Bringing it up again wouldn't do any good. [[User:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:Green; text-shadow: 0px 0px 3px green">'''Disaster'''</span> <span style="color:Blue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px blue">'''Flare'''</span>]] [[File:Disaster Flare signature image.png|20px]] ''[[User talk:Disaster Flare|<span style="color:SkyBlue;text-shadow:0px 0px 3px skyblue">(talk)</span>]]'' 21:25, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
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| :I apologize, 5 months ago seemed fairly recent to me, as the first objection was back in 2010. Just leaving my opinion about deletion, for something to consider. [[User:Ubiquittea|<span style="color:#008; text-shadow:-1px -1px #00bb77;">'''Ubiquittea'''</span>]] [[User talk:Serpent_King|(<span style="color: blue;">talk</span>)]] 21:45, 16 June 2016 (EDT)
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| == Deletion, 3 ==
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| This category is back up for deletion. Previous discussions eventually settled on "keep" for reasons such as "some people find it interesting" or "it's not doing any harm". I think things have changed since then (both on this wiki and in the community), and there is more reason than ever to get rid of it. Simply put, I think us having this category gives these players the wrong kind of attention, and we should not be an enabler for it. I don't think I need to elaborate much more than that. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Polychromatic 21:21, July 11, 2019 (EDT)
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| :'''Support unless we create a “male smashers category''', but even then, a competitive player’s sex is the last thing I would find interesting about them. [[User:Lou Cena|Lou Cena]] ([[User talk:Lou Cena|talk]]) 21:28, July 11, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::I've seen with my own eyes people doing a 180 flip when, after raging against someone online about a video game, they find out the person they were raging against to be a female - in hopes of suddenly getting on their good side and, as they say, "shooting their shot", solely because it must be absurd to think that a female, heaven forbid, play a video game. To be quite frank, separating people based on gender (which nowadays is a more touchy subject than ever, with people all over the world deciding that they don't even fall on either side) only drives it further into the ground that they're different from the "standard" male audience - they're just people who play video games. There's no reason to be segregative about this. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 21:36, July 11, 2019 (EDT)
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| '''Please''' Let's be rid of this category. And no, no "male smasher" category. <span style="font-family:Monotype Corsiva;border:outset #083 2px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083;background:#ed0;padding:1px">Serpent</span>]][[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0;background:#083;padding:1px">King</span>]]'''</span> 09:57, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| '''Support''' per reasons above. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Gamer</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 10:12, July 12, 2019 (EDT)
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| I mean...it doesn't seem any less necessary that say [[:Category:North American smashers]], but it's not really important enough to me to make any sort of case here. Just an observation I have. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 12:10, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| :That's a terrible comparison; it's a part of the regional category tree, while this stands by itself. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] Le Grand Fromage 12:17, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::I think you're missing the point. Smasher articles can get multiple categories attached to them, for various groups of smashers that they fit in to. What I'm getting at is that region and gender are both examples of groups of people, and I'm not particularly convinced that either is more significant or deserving of a category. ''[[User:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: blue;">'''Alex'''</span>]] the [[User talk:Trainer Alex|<span style="color: red;">'''Jigglypuff trainer'''</span>]]'' 12:20, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::Toomai has a point. In, say, the Olympics, you care less about gender of the individual person (even in a gender-separated sport, like football) than the country they represent, yes? It's the same here. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 12:42, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| '''Support'''. A gender category seems pointless to me, especially when there is no male smashers category (which in itself is even more pointless). [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 12:48, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| '''Support'''. Competitive-wise, there has never been a need to make a distinction between a smasher's gender. This is in contrast with regions, as their distinction is needed for regional [[Power ranking]]s, for instance, and as such are much more appropriate as a category than gender. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii]] '''[[User:Nokii|{{color|#89d|Nokii}}]]''' — 14:43, July 13, 2019 (EDT)
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| '''Support'''. Make a male category, or don't have this at all. Besides, someone else argued there are categories for African-american players and such, so there's no reason not to have that category if this is going to exist. If someone somehow has the principles to document every male Smash player, they probably deserve a medal. However, there is no way this category isn't harmful to women in the Smash community, speaking as a trans woman myself. I've been stalked enough times, and know that someone here could well fall victim due to this category. In argument against the Male Smashers category, it feels pointless and could well lead to a similar awkward situation. On top of this, it would only be around as an excuse to keep this one. It feels largely irrelevant to have something on a player's identity in the first place too though, so perhaps they should all just be removed. [[User:Plague von Karma|Plague von Karma]] ([[User talk:Plague von Karma|talk]]) 00:54, July 25, 2019 (EDT)
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| '''Oppose'''. In fact, let's create a male category too. It's good to know what pronouns to use for a person. I don't want to accidentally call a woman a "he." If people react negatively to losing to a girl, and change their attitude upon realizing the person's gender, just call them out on their sexism. And besides, if there's are categories for [[:Category:North American smashers|North American]], [[:Category:African smashers|African]] and [[:Category:Asian smashers|Asian smashers]] which also doesn't matter to the competitive scene. If we have categories about where these players are from, there's nothing wrong with gender categories. And there is still no universally accepted gender-neutral singular third-person pronoun. Sometimes people use "they" but that word is only appropriate as a plural word and if we start calling a single person "they," we'd might as well start saying "we" while we're alone. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 18:00, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :First, we refer to the players as "he", "she", etc. on their smasher pages already, so that's unnecessary. Second, we have categories for smashers mainly to distinguish regions for power rankings; I'd argue that region categories are more important also. [[User:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia;color: black;">Cookies</span>]][[File:CnC Signature.png|20px]][[User talk:Cookies and Creme|<span style="font-family: Georgia; color: black;">Creme</span>]] 18:04, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::Pronouns can be used on the page themselves, rather than having to distinguish them with unnecessary categories. And besides, in this day and age, there are probably lots of people who identify on neither, making yet another unnecessary category needed to be created. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 18:49, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| :::Yeah, I guess it's hard to avoid pronouns when writing an article on someone, so you got a point there. But I don't see much harm in having a category for a gender. Okay, since the characters don't have gender categories either and we don't have a male category, I guess we could delete? Or if we have regions for power rankings, maybe we could have gender rankings too? Sports have been gender-segregated and there has been outrage over transgenders beating real women in sports. Smash may not the same as physical sports, but I think people who would be into gender studies and don't have time to look for "he" and "she" in the text might want this category. But then again, they could use the information for their sexist identity politics, and the regional categories can be used for their racist identity politics. A racist can gather the information from the African and Asian smasher categories to say Asians are better than blacks or something. So maybe if we shouldn't have gender categories, we shouldn't have regional smasher categories either? I have no clue... Just change my vote to '''neutral'''. [[User:SeanWheeler|SeanWheeler]] ([[User talk:SeanWheeler|talk]]) 22:43, July 15, 2019 (EDT)
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| ::::*"Since the characters don't have gender categories either (...)"
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| ::::Whether character pages have such (which is arguably even more unnecessary) has no bearing towards a category used exclusively for smasher pages.
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| ::::*"Maybe we could have gender rankings too?"
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| ::::That's not up to the wiki to decide. If such a thing exists (which is fairly unlikely), then this category can be properly put into consideration.
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| ::::*"Sports have been gender-segregated (...)"
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| ::::These issues are irrelevant to any of the Smash tournaments covered in the wiki, where no such segregation exists.
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| ::::*"People who (...) don't have time to look for "he" and "she" in the text might want this category."
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| ::::Smasher pages usually have their pronouns used in the first few lines of text, which are at the top of the page as opposed to categories, which are in the bottom. Most people won't scroll all the way down the page to look for its categories if they can't bother reading the start of the page.
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| ::::*"They could use the information for their sexist identity politics, (...)"
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| ::::...and will continue to do so regardless of this category existing. Same goes for regional categories, as well as anything else the wiki covers. [[File:NokiiSig.png|link=User_talk:Nokii]] '''[[User:Nokii|{{color|#89d|Nokii}}]]''' — 03:43, July 21, 2019 (EDT)
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| Alright, given the consensus-based support, I think it's high time this got deleted - anyone else have anything they'd like to add? [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 10:53, July 29, 2019 (EDT)
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| Call me when rankings start separating Smashers by gender instead of just country of origin. Until they do, get this off the wiki. - [[User:EndGenuity|EndGenuity]] ([[User talk:EndGenuity|talk]]) 12:02, August 2, 2019 (EDT)
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| The consensual opinion is that this category should be deleted, and it will be handled over the coming days. This discussion is now '''closed'''. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 12:08, August 2, 2019 (EDT)
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