Talk:Clone

Archives

1. 1
2. 2
3. 3
4. 4
5. 5
6. 6

Pseudo-Clones?

Are Pseudo-Clones really "necessary" to included? If Wolf, Lucas, Luigi (Ultimate) and Dr.Mario (Ultimate) are not technically "clones", why list them as such? I tried reading what was stated before to properly understand, but I could not find a "clear" answer. If someone could give me a "nutshell" explanation for including Pseudo-Clones, it would be much appreciated. Wolff (talk) 00:54, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Yes they are actually, Wolf, Lucas, Luigi, and arguably Ganondorf now (which is still being debated) are far more distinct from their base characters than the likes of Falco, Young Link, Ken, Roy, Toon Link, and Isabelle. Dr. Mario isn’t a psudeo-clone; quite the contrary actually. He’s a full clone. Lou Cena (talk) 02:25, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

That is not actually answering my question. My question is about using the term "Pseudo-Clone" at all. Why state a character to be a clone if they aren't really a clone (in that installment)? Example: If Lucas is not a clone of Ness, why state that he is? Example 2: Luigi was a clone in 64, and a semi in all others but Ultimate. If he is a "psudeo" in Ultimate, then why list him at all for Ultimate? Psudeo is another word for fake. What purpose is there to include a section for "fake-clones"? If the case for Psudeos is that they "were based on another character" or "were a clone before", then it still does not make sense (to me) why Psudeo should be included. Wolff (talk) 16:19, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

The wiki is there to document the concepts related to Smash, not to dictates them. The smash community uses the idea of "pseudo-clone" since Wolf, hence the need to explain this concept here. Getting rid of it would be disinformation. YoshiRyu (talk) 18:29, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

You may not remember, but ever since Brawl came out there has always been huge debate over how to define Wolf. He was clearly not a full clone, and he was too different to be a semi-clone, but he was also too similar to not be any sort of clone at all. The pseudo-clone classification was made to give Wolf a box to sit in, and happens to be useful for other characters as well. Toomai Glittershine The Indescribable 18:36, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

I was aware of that debate. I just was not sure if it was really necessary. I guess it is then by that logic. Thank you! Wolff (talk) 18:49, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Enough is enough We have been arguing about how to treat the clones since the damn game released months ago. We'll go with Toomai's research and leave it at that. I don't want to see any more discussion about clones, unless it's contesting specific parts of his research specifically (as in X move is not a clone of Y move). SerpentKing 18:52, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

I would like to contest this. We already have official word from Nintendo AND datamined information (multiple sources in fact) that directly contradict Toonmai's research. He even admitted that what the developers consider clones changes between games (see Falco vs Daisy for example). None of the full clones in Ultimate (what the team call echoes) significantly differ in the following aspects.

Jump Height Movement Speed (especially aerial movement speed) Falling Speed Traction Proportions such as height and boneset. Basic attack and non attack animations (echoes may have a few exceptions to this) General damage output and knockback power Weight Grab and throw power (even Ken's Hell Wheel has the same power as Ryu's move) Basic parameters and coding in general (such as AI) are over 90% identical to the base character. Bolded are things that are outright identical.

These things all change for non-echoes and clones of the past. Isabelle for example has two special moves that are completely different in operation and serve completely different purposes, and Dr Mario has drastically altered physical attributes (some stuff like jump height were even tweaked by hand this time). Ken absolutely falls under a full clone because the vast majority of his tools are outright identical or extremely similar to Ryu's even in damage and knockback and the changes he has are mostly for flavor (matching SF2 Turbo) and don't really affect how he plays. Dr Mario's changes affect how he plays in a much bigger way. His position in tier lists is indicative of this. --5.81.71.60 18:14, April 3, 2019 (EDT)

Just to say, the above had been banned to be a MemoryMan sock. SugarCookie 420 20:46, April 3, 2019 (EDT)

I'm worried about him now. Please don’t take this as an attack or anything, but as I stated in my previous message, I'm concerned about someone else’s mental state, et cetera, et cetera, and I certainly don’t want to cast aspersions anybody’s way. The point is, I feel these discussions are becoming a bad case of déjà vu, and as much as I want to stop this, the truth is… I can’t (at least, not at this moment).

Post-Scriptum: Though this might sound presumptuous, I also feel that the debate on what makes a clone has gone on a bit too long, and I wish not to comment on the matter. Thanks for reading. 24.6.47.241 19:12, April 4, 2019 (EDT)

Ganondorf’s up tilt and psudeo-clone status, and the qualifying percent for a psudeo-clone

Ganondorf’s moves are enough to qualify him as a psudeo-clone. All of his ground attacks are different, and even if he shares the same aerials, no other clone archetype has such polarizing differences on moves with the same animations. He should definitely be moved to the psudeo-clone category, though I’m curious about your thoughts on this. If arguements stating that he’s a psudeo-clone are convincing enough, he will be moved, and if arguements stating that he’s a semi-clone still are convincing enough, he will stay.Lou Cena (talk) 02:21, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

As per the wishes of many users, I’m going to be a bit more specific here. The last time I brought Ganondorf’s semi-clone status to questioning, somebody added that his up tilt was a different move but left him as a semi-clone, and in all honesty, that’s even less desirable. He’s currently sitting at exactly 50% on the cloneosity chart, do if one more move that is not labeled as different by Toomai is in fact considered a different move, then less than half of ‘Dorf’s moveset is different, which will effectively push him into psudeo-clone status. So, I’ll give my say in this first: Ganondorf’s up tilt is different and he’s a semi-clone. It has a frame difference of about 30 frames, which is already extremely polarizing. This isn’t even accounting for the fact that it has much more knockback and damage, has elemental effects where Cap doesn’t, and even has a Special Zoom, while again, Falcon’s does not. Sure, its animation is similar, but it has far too many differences from Falcon’s to be considered the same move, and the frame difference alone should honestly drop this one as a “similar move”. Lou Cena (talk) 22:03, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

After doing the math, if Ganondorf’s up tilt is considered a different move, he would share 11/24 or 45.83% of his moveset with Captain Falcon. If we count it as half because of the similar animation but different application, he shares 11.5/24 or 47.9% of his moves. While the cloneosity chart lists the qualifier as a pseudo-clone as 30-45%, even that is fairly questionable, especially when the semi-clone qualifier is 45-80%. I think an 5% is a fair margin to shave off of the semi-clone qualifying percent and added onto the pseudo-clone qualifier. This will make the qualifying percents from a 15% margin for psudeos and a 35% margin for semis to a much more reasonable 20% margin for psudeos and 30% margin for semis. Lou Cena (talk) 00:34, May 2, 2019 (EDT)

Young Link’s semi-clone status, down special, and opposite-handed strikes

Young Link’s animations are enough to qualify him as a semi-clone. He holds his sword in his other hand, which while it has been arued to be easy because he mirrors Link’s animations, the mirroring not exact, and would have taken extra work. If arguements stating that he’s a semi-clone are convincing enough, he will be moved, and if arguements stating that he’s a full clone still are convincing enough, he will stay. Lou Cena (talk) 02:21, April 1, 2019 (EDT)

Problem with YL and TL's current write-up is that they ignore most of adult/BotW Link's changes. I'd say they both count as Semis given that BotW Link has new animations for almost every attack, both the kids are shorter and lighter with different fall speeds, he has remote bombs and recoverable arrows and the whole grab thing going on. Guybrush20X6 (talk) 20:18, April 3, 2019 (EDT)

That’s part of the reason why I think Young Link is a semi-clone now. Link’s Down Special has a different animation and the item works completely differently, and the cloneosity chart didn’t seem to take into account that YL has a rapid jab and adult Link does not. There’s also the fact that adult Link holds his sword in opposite hands as the other two Links. While this has been argued to simply be mirrored from Link’s animations or taking from his previous appearance, I don’t think it’s safe to completely ignore them. Perhaps counting those moves as 0.8:1 instead of 1:1 would be a decent way to remedy this issue? Lou Cena (talk) 22:10, May 1, 2019 (EDT)

I did the math: if we count Young Link’s tilts, smashes, aerials, and pummel as only 80% cloned from Link’s, as well as discounting his down special (which is too different from Link’s to be considered the same move) and his final smash (we should only count cloned moves based directly on that character, not half counting if it’s based on another character), then 16.85/24 of Young Link’s moves are the same, which means that he shares 70.208% of his moveset with Link. Lou Cena (talk) 17:36, May 3, 2019 (EDT)

Ness and Lucas' Dash Attack

According to the article, dash attack is listed as one of the similar moves between Ness and Lucas for Brawl, Smash 4, and Ultimate. But when I look at the dash attack animation for both characters and knowing the properties of both, I can't really say I agree with this claim. What do you guys think? --23.17.208.28 05:05, April 11, 2019 (EDT)

Should I add in that Hero shares some attacks with other characters?

When I was watching the trailer, I couldn’t help but notice his similarities to Link and Marth, with his shied and dash attack resembling Link, while his up smash and back air resembles Marth. Should I add that in as a little blurb below the table? Lou Cena (talk) 13:07, June 12, 2019 (EDT)

• A jumping slash attack similar to Link's. This is presumably his dash attack.
• An attack where he performs a two-handed downward slash in front of him, resembling Ike and Ganondorf's forward smashes, as well as Roy and Chrom's Flare Blade. This is presumably his forward smash.
• A single upward thrust, which resembles Marth's up smash. This is presumably his up smash.
• An aerial attack where he swings his sword around him, resembling Ike's neutral aerial.
• An aerial attack that is a sword swipe behind his back, which resembles Toon Link's back aerial. **This move completely turns around the Hero in midair after use, much like Marth's back aerial.
• An attack where he performs an upward kick, presumably his up throw or up aerial. Somewhat resembles Ken's up aerial.

It seems like The Hero takes a lot from a bunch of different characters. Obviously he doesn’t seem like he’d be a psuedo-clone of any one character, but he rips a suspicious amount of moves from a lot of characters. Lou Cena (talk) 13:24, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

Characters taking a lot from other fighters isn't something new, or, in this case, noteworthy. Aidan, the Rurouni 13:26, June 14, 2019 (EDT)

Ken

Shouldn't Ken's Up Aerial be labeled under the differences section? It's its own move for all intents and purposes (different animation since it's a kick instead of a punch, in addition to distinct properties, such as only hitting once without being disjointed and being special-cancellable)--190.166.140.92 18:37, July 6, 2019 (EDT)

Jigglypuff Pseudo-Clone?

I have an entry listed on the cloneosity discussion page about this, but the tl;dr is that jab and back throw were listed as cloned moves in Smash 64 but not in Melee, despite neither move changing significantly for either Kirby or Jigglypuff (i.e. the moves should be ranked the same for both games). Ranking these moves as cloned in Melee would bump Jigglypuff's clone rating firmly above the 30% pseudo-clone threshold. From what I've researched, this would also mean that Jiggs is most likely a pseudo-clone in every game afterwards. b2jammer (talk) 23:14, July 18, 2019 (EDT)

Daisy

3.0.0 didn't take the only differences Daisy had with Peach, there are still others.

-Daisy has less startlag when running, and less startlag on some attacks too.

-Her bomber goes further and faster.

-She's slightly shorter than Peach.

-Her forward Smash is shorter but stronger, and also has more vertical range than Peach.

-Her B-air is weaker than Peach's while her F-air is quicker.

Essentially, Peach is more of a power character, while Daisy is more of a speed character.

All of these supposed differences are completely false. All of Daisy's attacks function exactly the same as Peach's, with the same animations, frame data, damage output, knockback, hitbox placements, range, attack effects etc. Her size and speed is also identical as well. She does have different idle and running animations, but that's it. The only gameplay difference she legitimately had was that her down special turnips had different knockback values, something that was removed when Joker was released. I do think she would benefit from being made more unique though. Zakawer2 (talk) 08:14, October 3, 2019 (EDT)

Differences between Echoes and non-Echoes

It seems like they only relegated Echoes to characters that were introduced in WiiU/3DS and Ultimate. All prior clones (64, Melee, and Brawl) they seem to have purposely tried to declone moreso than an Echo Fighter. I think the main thing about an Echoe Fighter is that they share the same shape/skeleton and weight to their counterpart, while all the non-Echoes have a completely different skeleton and/or weight. Daisy seems to have an extremely slight hurtbox difference, but it's so slight and she is basically the same as Peach otherwise, thus she's an Echo Fighter. Dr. Mario who's not an Echo seems to have the same skeleton as Mario, but he's quite a bit heavier and has a lot of other different attributes otherwise (speed, power output, different standard and special attacks that function differently than Mario's, much stronger back throw), thus he's not an Echo.

Hello. We already had a very long back and forth about echoes (mostly because of me). The current definition on the page is the result of that discussion. Short story: echos are low budget fighter, that's a technical reality. The budget cut is mostly done throught animation recycling, as animation is a insanely huge part of a fighter development in Smash (emphasis on insanely), and animation recycling indeed requires that the characters use the same rig (aka skeleton). What makes an clone not an echo is rather that, despite being a clone, the fighter still have its very own set of animations, and therefore required a normal budget. Dr Mario is not an echo because he doesn't use Mario's animations. YoshiRyu (talk) 12:13, November 21, 2019 (EST)

Also, you need to sign your messages by putting 4 "~" at the end, it will do this: YoshiRyu (talk) 12:18, November 21, 2019 (EST)

I can add to this. When Nintendo announced Daisy for Smash, they explained exactly what seperates an Echo from someone like Dr Mario very clearly.. Translated, it says that echoes have basically the same speed, jumps, weight, and attack power as their original counterparts. This is true of Ken and Chrom but is not true to Dr Mario and Young Link for example. --Pontiusbrave (talk) 14:31, November 25, 2019 (EST)

There is no consistent metric for determining whether a fighter should be considered an echo or not, because even Nintendo isn't clear on how similar echo fighters should be. Also it's interesting that you should happen to know about Daisy's hurtbox change, as this is definitely not common knowledge...although I do happen to know a certain other individual who knows about it. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 14:38, November 25, 2019 (EST)

There isn't a consistent metric, but there definitely is a difference between someone like Ken and someone like Dr. Mario, namely, in how extreme their gameplay differences are. Dr Mario is at least .4 units slower than Mario whilst Ken isn't even .2 faster than Ryu. Ken also jumps the same height as Ryu and has roughly the same manuverability. The Daisy hurtbox thing is actually common knowledge seeing as how many people in comments talk about it as it's her only difference. --Pontiusbrave (talk) 14:48, November 25, 2019 (EST)

The stats thing is bogus. It's just an over-simplification made to fit in a direct presentation. Having similar stats is a by-product of recycling an animation set, but it's not what makes an echo an echo (there are fighters with similar stats that aren't echoes). If you use the same jump animation, the fighter will often jump the same height because otherwise it wouldn't feel natural; if you use the same run animation, the fighter will often run the same speed because otherwise it wouldn't feel natural, and so on, and so on. The low-budget definition will always be true, that's what an echo fighter is at it's core, the stats definition you're using will only be true until Sakurai decides otherwise, then it won't be anymore. So you shouldn't cling to much to it. YoshiRyu (talk) 15:07, November 25, 2019 (EST)

Unsure what you mean by stats. Are you talking about things like speed and weight? Because those aren't tied to animations at all. Mario and Dr Mario have the same running animation, but they run at different speeds. The same thing is true Ken and Ryu, Ken has the exact same running animation but runs slightly faster. I think Doc's animation is maaaaaaaaybe slightly slower than Mario's, but the point still stands, same animation, different stats. Samus and Dark Samus have the exact same weight, and jump the same height, but have different jumping animations. I think Dark Samus technically jumps very very slightly lower because her hurtbox after a jump isn't has high as Samus, but regardless, same stats, different animation. Animations aren't tied to the characters' stats at all. 8.40.199.25 15:42, December 18, 2019 (EST)

Stats are not technically tied to animation, indeed, but if you're making a big AAA game, you're gonna make animations that fit the stats of your characters. The human brain is smart, it always can tell when something doesn't feel natural. If your character moves faster that its animation implies, you're going to feel like he is sliding forward, if he moves slower, that he is "forward moonwalking"; if your animation don't perfectly fit the speed, the character's feet won't stick to the ground like they're supposed to do (You can just speed up the animation, but the human brain is going to spot that too). In the end, that's just how 3D animation is done, Sora Ltd and Nintendo don't do that kind of amateurish mistake. And it's the same for any animation: for a jump, for instance, without you even knowing it, you're brain is still going to analyse every detail of the motion, and if the impulse doesn't fit the strenght the character seems to be putting in its jump, your brain is going to tell you that something seems weird. Because the basis of echo fighters is animation recycling, they often end up having similar stats with their original, but that not a cause for an echo, rather a consequence. As for your exemples, Mario and Dr Mario don't actually have the same run animation, I've checked (make them running toward each other, you'll see that one of them has movements that feels more powerful). And Ryu and Ken are basically cheating: they use a 2D based animation remade in 3D that your brain is already used to, Ken is goofy when he runs, but you don't notice it because you've already seen that for decades (plus the animation itself is played faster for Ken, which prevents the sliding feet effect). Samus and Dark Samus aren't relevant here, of course it is possible to make two different "runs" with the same speed. YoshiRyu (talk) 16:56, December 18, 2019 (EST)

Daisy and Peach have different running animations but run the same speed. Mario and Dr Mario have the same running animations but run at different speeds. Of course, the speed of the animation is tied to the run speed. Equip spirits and you can see that the animation plays faster or slower depending on the speed. Animations are tied to stuff such as moves yes, but not the properties of the moves. You can easily have the same side B animation either be a single hit knockout attack or multi-hit combo attack. Custom moves in Smash 4 were basically done like this. Dr Mario and Mario share almost every animation like other clones do, but they have different stats. The real reason why was balancing. If you change stats around you need to test the changes against a variety of situations to see if it feels right. This can take a short amount of time if the change is just minor, but if it's a big change you would need to test it extensively and that can eat up a lot of development time. Probably the reason why custom moves were scrapped in this game. --Pontiusbrave (talk) 18:50, January 1, 2020 (EST)

I'm not going to repeat myself again and again. I know what I'm talking about, and you don't (Mario and Dr Mario don't have the same running animation, period; it doesn't matter that those two animations look similar to your non-expert eye, they're still two totally separate sets of bones rotations, a slightly different animation is still a different animation which means an extra task for the animators, while almost all of Daisy's animations are simply copy-pasted from Peach's files). Balancing is a factor too, true, but the amount of work required to balance a fighter in Smash is nowhere near the amount of work required to animate it. You're however probably right for the custom moves scraping. YoshiRyu (talk) 16:53, January 6, 2020 (EST)

They do have the same boneset though. Dr Mario's boneset and Mario's boneset is the same. Dr Mario has the stethoscope and no hat, but other than that, no differences. In games if two characters have the same body shape it makes sense to re-use a rig. Other users have pointed out that it's already possible to alter mechanics without exactly altering animations. Custom Moves literally did this in Smash 4. Equipment and Spirits also do this. --Pontiusbrave (talk) 08:56, January 12, 2020 (EST)

Several problems with the Ultimate section

• Every full clone only has at most 3 unique moves listed. Except Young Link, who has 7 listed. Even Pichu and Dr. Mario only have 3 unique attacks listed. In my opinion, Young Link should be listed as a semi-clone, not a full clone.
• A couple of "semi-clones", namely, Falco and Ganondorf, share less than half of their movesets with their base characters, which I believe is criteria for being a psuedo-clone. Falco only shares his down smash, back air, down air, pummel, grab, neutral special, side special, up special, and Final Smash. Ganondorf only shares his Nair, Bair, Uair, Dair, grab, neutral special, down special, up special, down throw, and back throw. Those are both less than half of their movesets (9/24 and 10/24 respectively).
• Toon Link is said to be "one of the least unique semi-clones", but according to the chart, he's actually the 3rd most unique, only after the two who are arguably psuedo-clones. I'd make a case for Toon Link being a Psuedo-clone, but I don't feel like I have a strong argument for him like I do for Ganondorf and Falco. He shares his neutral attack, up throw, down throw, Uair, Dair, neutral special, side special, up special, forward tilt, down tilt, down smash, and pummel, or 12/24, which is borderline semi or pseudo.
• All of Terry's tilts, as well as his up smash, and all aerials except Nair and Uair are shared with Ken and Ryu. That's a full 7 shared moves, as many as Wolf shares with Fox, so there's a case to be made that he's a psuedo-clone.
• Luigi's forward and up tilts are not listed as moves that Luigi shares, even though those clearly take inspiration from Mario. Obviously that's not going to affect his status, but it's jarring knowing that they're the same but it isn't acknowledged.

72.203.118.154 04:34, January 10, 2020 (EST)

Most decisions that you listed here were the resut of this, so I recommend you take a look. CookiesCreme 07:03, January 10, 2020 (EST)

That chart has problems too though. It doesn't include Terry, Toon Link is still the 3rd most unique semi-clone (after two that are arguably pseudo), the range for pseudo clones is way too tight in comparison for the ranges for full clones and semi-clones (a tiny 15% in comparison to a whopping 35% for semis and 25% for full clones), and it calls some different moves the exact same (i.e. Link's down special with the other two links, Roy's Final Smash, and Ganondorf's up tilt)). 72.203.118.154 10:52, January 10, 2020 (EST)

Well, here's another chart that may interest you. RickTommy 06:46, January 11, 2020 (EST)

To be honest? I prefer the second chart's system. Even though it's completely out of date, it acknowledges a different move outside of it being slightly conceptually similar (such as Wolf's blaster not being counted as similar at all to Fox's). What I noticed is that the first chart focuses on conceptual/animation, while the second one focuses on its application in competitive. Since not counting similar concepts at all is going a little overboard (especially in cases like Ultimate Dr. Mario or Melee Falco, who have the exact same animations but different knockback and damage), I suggest we do an in-between chart that counts for around 0.7/1 instead of 1/1 for moves with similar concepts like Ganondorf's up tilt, Young Link's down special, and Wolf's neutral special (though Roy's Final Smash is 100% unique). 72.203.118.154 13:56, January 11, 2020 (EST)

Of the points I didn't cover on User talk:Toomai/Cloneosity: Luigi's f-tilt and u-tilt should indeed be on the page, but someone removed them for some reason. I'm putting them back. Toomai Glittershine The Brass 15:17, January 11, 2020 (EST)