Talk:Sheik/Archive 1

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zelda?

I don't see why we have a picture that says "Zelda" on it in the Sheik article. --ycz12

That was the old picture when this page was for both Zelda and Sheik. We need to get new pictures for all of the characters, but if you'd like to start, you're welcome to do so. --Kirby King 01:24, August 4, 2006 (GMT)

I was thinking about doing that myself. I'll see if I'm not as busy as I have been this weekend and try to get a decient start on it. Oddeven2002 22:04, September 5, 2006 (GMT)

I added a new pic, but it's more of a temp pic. I put it there until a better one is found. --Respawn 08:46 P.M., Oct 31, 2006 (EST)

REDRAGON is editing adjective and reversing it ex. "Sheik is the easiest character to play well," to his verson "Sheik is the HARDEST character to play well, harder than Falco." And this isnt his opinion, Ive looked over the whole article. - Marthsword 19:47, March 16, 2007 (GMT)

Confirmed For Brawl

http://wii.live-360.net/wii/sheik-confirmed-for-brawl-and-more/ And if that's not enough, the site also includes a source itself. Magiciandude 12:49, January 11, 2008 (EST)

Oh, right. Then say something that contrary to pop belief Roy appears in FE7, even if it isn't relevant to Sheik. Maybe put it in the  --RoyboyX Talk 17:55, 6 October 2011 (EDT)

Done. ReiDemon 18:02, 6 October 2011 (EDT)

New Artwork of Sheik

The concept art of Sheik from Twilight Princess, which is the source of Sheik's design in Brawl, has finally been published by Nintendo. [1]

Thank you for this information. :) Unknown the Hedgehog 23:15, 3 February 2012 (EST)

Combo ability?

The page claims that Sheik has great combo ability in Brawl, but I read somewhere else (don't remember where) on this wiki that it is impossible to combo in Brawl. Which one is correct? Accoolx (talk) 16:21, 3 March 2012 (EST)

It is possible to combo in Brawl through the use of hitstun. Sheik has the neutral attack capabilities and the follow up tatics. People will say that Brawl has less combos than Melee, but that does not mean Brawl has 0 combos. Mega Tron1 XD 16:28, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Thank you. Come to think of it, I think I read it just on a talkpage, so... Accoolx (talk) 18:00, 3 March 2012 (EST)

Ocarina of Time 3D

It says that sheik only appeared in one game. Did she appear in OoT3D? I don't know. I don't own that game. But If she does than this should be fixed. Chuck Norris 10:55, 11 July 2012 (EDT)

As OoT3D is an exact remake of the original game, Sheik isn't really considered to have appeared in more than one game. Literally, Sheik has been in more than one game, but in terms of game story, timeline placement and such, Sheik only has a place in one. Toast

ltimatum

11:17, 11 July 2012 (EDT)

That makes sense. Thanks. Chuck Norris 11:25, 11 July 2012 (EDT)

Peach the Top Tier Female

The latest tier list says Peach is top tier so the info that Sheik is the only Top Tier female is false. --TheLegendaryKRB (talk) 11:00, 20 December 2013 (EST)

Profile image

Left Image: Twilight Princess design
Right Image: Ocarina of Time design

Which do you think should be used for her profile default image? I personally think we need to go with her Twilight Princess design for her profile image as its the one that matches her current appearance in smash. Going with her OoT design just densest make sense, since her OoT appearance hasn't been in Smash Bros. since Melee. It creates inconsistency by referring too her OoT appearance as her main profile image when she doesn't even use it in the Smash Bros. games anymore. It's her most current, and most used, design in the Smash series so I feel its a better fit than her one-time OoT appearance.
Ixbran (talk) 18:17, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Here's the thing. The "Twilight Princess" artwork was made especially for Brawl. In the main image, we always use a non-Smash image. The "Twilight Princess" image may be newer, but it was only made for Brawl. They didn't make it for Twilight Princess. Chuck Norris 19:39, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

CN24, you're incorrect. The Brawl/SSB4 design was based on pre-existing concept art for Twilight Princess that wasn't used in that game; it wasn't designed explicitly for Smash. Check Hyrule Historia, or Sakurai's quote: "Sheik doesn’t appear in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but we based her model on a design that was drafted up during the development of that game." Miles (talk) 19:44, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Yup. I dun goofed. However, I still think it would be better to use actual official artwork rather than concept artwork of a game she didn't appear in. Chuck Norris 19:50, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Exactly what Miles. Had Sheiks TP design really been made specifically for smash, the quote would have been along the lines of "Sheik doesn’t appear in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess, but we based her model on designs of the other Zelda characters during the development of this game.". And even if it was made just for Smash, why would that even matter in regards to her default picture? Sure we may not use smash artworks for a characters default image, but if that's all we had, why wouldn't we use it? Again, Sheik hasn't appeared in a SSB game in her OoT design since Melee, so theirs no reason to use it since it doesn't match her current appearance. It would be like using a picture of Skyward Sword Zelda for her default picture, over her TP design. Its not the version that's used in game, but still her latest (and i use that word loosely) official Zelda series design. It's just aesthetically better to go with Sheiks TP design, as it fits the theme of the default image of the main character profile matching their current SSB design, as well as matching the other Zelda characters who use their Twilight Princess looks over their others.
Ixbran (talk) 19:55, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

The OoT design isn't obsolete by any means. The TP design barely changed anything, other than making it a tad more gritty. I just think the OoT design is more aesthetically pleasing. Also, I think it makes more sense to have the main image be from a game that she actually is featured in. Chuck Norris 20:03, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Again, I reiterate, smash character profile images are meant to represent their current Smash Bros. appearance. SSB4, and Brawl, went with her unused TP design, so its best to stick with that one. And, again, her OoT design hasn't been used since Melee, so theirs no point in using the OoT design since it doesn't match her current Smash appearance.
Ixbran (talk) 20:27, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

But this wasn't a huge redesign like with Link or Zelda. The only differences, aside from a slightly darker coloring, are added bandages around her knees and a knife. That's it. No major ovehaul in her design. It's practically the same. Chuck Norris 20:33, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

OoT Design: Single body blue and dark blue leotard with white striping, a single white sash over the front and back of the chest which doubled as a muffler around her face. Bandages to bind her breasts under the white fabric on her chest and some sports tape around her wrists and knuckles. bandages wrapped around her head.

TP Design: A near black blue, and dark blue patterned leather one piece. With light blue leather pads wrapped around her thigh and knees, along with darker blue pads wrapped around her biceps, forearms, and calf's. Sports tape now placed on her thighs and forearms to help keep the padding in place. A Sash placed over the front and backside of her, with clips meant to hold these in place positioned near her hips. The muffler around her face is not a separate piece of cloth, no longer part of the sash placed over her torso, and is held there via clips, two in the front and two in the back. She now wears a mask over her face in the event she tilts her head in a way that might cause her face to leave the muffler around her neck. She also now sports a braid that travels down to the mid section of her back, where as before all her hair, sans her bangs, were hidden under the muffler. She also now sports a Nodachi, or to put it simply a Ninja Sword, on her back which is held there by straps attached too the back of her uniform.

"It wasn't a huge redesign"
Ixbran (talk) 20:45, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Zelda changing from her OoT dress to her TP dress is a huge redesign. Link's design change from OoT to TP is a huge redesign. Adding a bunch of minor details that you barely notice at first glance isn't a "huge redesign". Yes, she may have been made more realistic looking, but it's by no means as drastic as other redesigns of characters from her series. Chuck Norris 20:59, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

If you say so bub, if you say so. Again, going back to my original statement. Her smash design uses her unused TP appearance, ergo her profile needs to use the artwork that matches her current Smash look. That is the way SSB Wiki does things. Theres no reason to use her OoT design for her profile picture since it isn't being used for anything.
Ixbran (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

I just feel that It would be better to use actual official artwork from a game she appeared in rather than concept artwork from a game that she had nothing to do with. Yes, her Brawl design was based off of this drawing, but when the differences are so minor, it isn't that big of a deal. Chuck Norris 21:14, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

It may have been unused but it is still official artwork. Again, I reiterate, her OoT look isn't being used for anything, there's no point in using it.
Ixbran (talk) 21:19, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Again, I reiterate, The design change isn't notable enough to warrant having it as the main image. But instead of us debating this, why don't we see what other users think? Chuck Norris 21:24, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

I imagine most are fine with her TP design being there considering your the only one to make this a huge deal. Her TP picture had been set as her default for over a week before you decided to come in and change it to her OoT one due to your personal bias. I'm stating she should use her TP appearance because it follows the theme of using the official art of her current Smash appearance being based off it, you're saying to go with her OoT design simply because you like it more. Tell me, which do you think comes off as the most professional reason?
Ixbran (talk) 21:31, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Well, the OoT artwork had been there for over 4 years before you decided to switch it, so me "coming in and changing it" is a bogus argument to use. And don't pull this "personal bias" crap. There are two artworks; One is official artwork from a game she is in, and the other is concept artwork from a game that she didn't even appear in. "The way the SSB Wiki does things", we have always used the official artwork of a character from a game they appear in. Sheik's design hasn't drastically changed over the years. There's no need to put the TP artwork as the main image. Chuck Norris 21:45, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Both artworks are official, its just one was used in a LoZ game, the other wasn't because she was removed from the story. As for her OoT design being in the profile for 4 years, I just chalk that up to it being overlooked. Again, you're the only person who came in being upset about it. Your the only person demanding to use her OoT design over her TP design, despite the fact the everyone else seemed fine change too her TP design used as the default. I wouldn't bring up the 'personal bias' argument if it weren't so blatantly obvious. Your posts stating you "just think the OoT design is more aesthetically pleasing" and that you "just feel that It would be better" make it obvious you have a personal bias for her OoT design.
Ixbran (talk) 21:58, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

You're being awfully hypocritical. You claim that something being on this Wiki for 4 years is "overlooked", yet when you changed it to the way you wanted for a week, "everyone else was fine with it". And no, I'm not "demanding" that her OoT artwork be her main image, I'm trying to have a civil discussion with you about why I think it should be. However, you resort to using minor insults ("Get your eyes checked", "Alrighty bub") and demonstrate a complete lack of understanding on what I'm trying to explain to you. And no, like I said earlier, I'm not demonstrating a "personal bias". You said stuff like, "I think it would be best" as well. Not to mention, virtually every single argument you used against me also applies to you. You act like the minor design changes of Sheik from Melee to Brawl are some huge, earth-shattering reboot of her. I've said this many times, but I'll say it again. The OoT artwork is from a game she actually appeared in. The TP artwork is concept artwork from a game that she wasn't even in. Chuck Norris 22:35, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Again when I changed it to the TP design, nobody but you has made a big deal out of it. And even then, this initial change was made 10 days ago. If you had thought the OoT design was better suited as her default image, you should have brought this up then, instead of now. That's one of the reasons why I'm being as snarky as I am. You simply come off as a die hard OoT fan boy who only wants the OoT design simply because you saying things like "I just think the OoT design is more aesthetically pleasing" and that you "just feel that It would be better", so I can't take you seriously. Again, Sheiks Twilight Princess design is an official artwork drawn up by LoZ designer when they had planned for her to appear in the game. And yes even though it went unused, Sakurai considered it official enough to use it in Brawl and in SSB4, so I don't see why you are having so much difficulty acknowledging it as official artwork when no one else seems to think the same way you do. I say this on the basis that, again, your the only person to get (seemingly) upset about the idea of Sheiks TP design being in the info box, and not her OoT design.

And yea regarding the "get your eyes checked" comment, I admit that was immature of me, hence why I took it down shortly after posting it.
Ixbran (talk) 22:52, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

You know why I didn't bring this up 10 days ago? Because I was busy helping add info about the Smash Direct to this Wiki. That is a stupid reason to justify your "snarky" behavior. And yes, the TP artwork is official. I am fully aware of this. But the thing is, she isn't in the damn game. The design change isn't drastic enough to justify having it as the main image. And you are just being too stubborn and hard-headed to have a civil conversation. Calling me a "Die Hard OoT Fanboy" is a blatantly obvious personal insult. [2] Chuck Norris 23:15, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Or: we continue to use both like we do on the Ganondorf page? Not that radical of an idea. Miles (talk) 23:04, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

Hes talking about which image should be used in the character profile template on the right side of the page. He wants to use the OoT one in the template, but I think it would be best to go with the TP design since it follows the trend of characters template profile images being the ones closest in design to their smash appearance. I've no problem with both images being on the page as it is now.
Ixbran (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2014 (EDT)

How about we leave it up to an admin to decide which image to be used? Its obvious neither I or chuck are budging on the issue, and no one else seems to want to get involved in the matter. I don't want this debate going on longer than it should.
Ixbran (talk) 17:20, 23 April 2014 (EDT)

Normally we see what other people have to say. Let's just see what others users have to say instead of pointless arguing. Chuck Norris 18:05, 23 April 2014 (EDT)

That is fine as well.
Ixbran (talk) 21:01, 23 April 2014 (EDT)

I agree with ChuckNorris that we should use the Ocarina of Time image. The reason, which was already brought up, that Sheik doesn't appear in Twilight Princess. Yes it's true that her design for Brawl and SSB4 are based off the concept art of her for TP, and yes it is important and should be noted in the page; however, I believe the image displayed should be from the latest game that the character actually appeared in (in this cased, OoT).

Her smash design uses her unused TP appearance, ergo her profile needs to use the artwork that matches her current Smash look.

Actually, this is a "generic" character page that is written about the character from the canon series (the reason I'm not talking about Sheik is because this is true for every generic character article). Since this is about Sheik, the character from a Zelda game, and not Sheik, a playable character in Smash, the article and its main image should reflect the games she's actually in, regardless of Sheik's design in Brawl and SSB4. To reiterate, regardless of how Sheik is designed in Brawl and SSB4 this is a generic character article that reflects Sheik as a character from the Zelda games and not a Smash Bros. character, and because of this the main image should be from a game she canonically appears in the Zelda games, and not conceptual work. This isn't to say the concept art isn't official and shouldn't be mentioned, it is and it should, but that she doesn't appear in the game and no amount of concept art can change that. Unknown the Hedgehog 21:42, 14 May 2014 (EDT)

but then that creates an inconsistency with character profiles. All main character profiles use official art works that matches their current smash appearances. Using her OoT design as her profile image, when it hasnt been used since Melee, makes sheiks profile page comes off as unprofessional since it doesn't follow the pattern of the other pages. We need to keep this consistency if we want this wiki to be something people can rely on. Using her outdated OoT design as her profile image would clash with her smash appearances. Even if her TP design went unused in TP, it is still used in the smash games and it is official art work drawn by Nintendo officials.
Ixbran (talk) 18:10, 23 May 2014 (EDT)

There wasn't an inconsistency until you decided that the images should reflect their design in Smash rather than the latest game they appear in (I'm not trying to sound rude; that's just how it sounds in text). Before, at least from what I saw, the images were official artwork from the game that the character most recently appeared in regardless of design. Characters like Ike and Marth for example, before you changed them, were based around this, albeit they, along with Link, Zelda, and Roy, are pretty much the only ones who've went through noticeable design changes in their latest games (And yes, I would say Link in SSB4 is still based around his TP design and not the Skyward Sword design, and Roy's article did use a newer image that Red put in but later removed anyway for some reason). As said before, these types of articles deal with characters in their respective series' canon (Sheik the character in a Zelda game) and not fighters in the Smash games (Sheik the playable character in SSBM-SSB4). That's what the SSB-SSB4 fighter articles are for. And since Sheik's only canon appearance in a Zelda game is OoT, that's the logical choice. Also, the image isn't outdated; if the creators of the Zelda games wanted Sheik to have her TP concept art to be her "current" design, they would've done that in OoT 3D, which I suppose would be her latest appearance if we want to go the route Zeldawiki did and use their image of her in OoT 3D. Unknown the Hedgehog 13:03, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

I remembered reading somewhere that character profile images were meant to be the variation based on their smash appearances. I was only doing what I thought was standard wiki protocol. I was just doing what I thought was best for the wiki, if you want someone to blame for all this mess, you should blame your self and chuck with all this 'but she didn't appear in TP so we shouldn't use her TP art' nonsense. Using the OoT design for her default image, when she isn't even using her OoT design, causes it to clash with her current smash appearance. Going with character designs that fit their current smash appearances not only makes more sense sense, but its also aesthetically better, as it creates consistency between her base profile and newer smash character page.
Ixbran (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2014 (EDT)

I'm to blame for a "mess" I wasn't involved in, but only voiced my thoughts on? Anyway, I've already explained how these types of articles are not about the character as a fighter in Smash, but instead are about the character in their respective series. Allow me to break down my thoughts: As said before, but has yet to be addressed, these articles are about the character in their respective series and not primarily about the fighter in Smash. This particular article is about Sheik, a character in the Zelda game, and not Sheik, the fighter in Smash. Sheik only officially appeared in one Zelda game, that being OoT. And since, as previously states, this article is about Sheik in the Zelda canon, and she has only appeared canonically in OoT, the only image that should be used is from either OoT or OoT 3D. Design changes in Smash does not change the two aforementioned facts (1. This article being about the Zelda character. 2. She only canonically appeared in OoT). There would be no "clashing" as the reader would know those two things, and scroll down to the bottom to the Gallery and read up on her concept art for TP. Also, referring to your last post, which would look more unprofessional for a Wiki: An image in the infobox for a character that both a) Is official artwork for that game and b) that character actually appeared in that game; or an image that is a) concept art (concept art is concept art; regardless if it's official) and b) that character doesn't even appear in that game in the first place? And I've already discussed the consistency issue in my last post. Unknown the Hedgehog 09:36, 26 May 2014 (EDT)

I propose the following, for this page and for other character pages like it:

The image in the infobox should be the source design of the character's most recent appearance in Smash. For example, for the non-toon Zelda characters, that would be TP (including Sheik's concept art, since it's the source design).
Any other designs for the character's previous appearances in Smash should appear in the character description section. For the same set of Zelda characters, this would be OoT/OoT3D to represent the origins of their 64/Melee designs.

This would also save us from having to constantly update to the "most recent" artwork of a character when nothing has changed in their design. Thoughts? Miles (talk) 15:15, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

I agree with this idea. You've my support.
Ixbran (talk) 17:18, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

I disagree with the first point. Refer to my previous posts as to why. Also I probably didn't explain myself well when I was referring to their most recent appearance. What I should have said was that character's most recent appearance when the design of the character changes. If we went with my idea, the articles would only have to be updated to the "most recent" artwork when the design of that character changed in that series's canon (which isn't often at all). Unknown the Hedgehog 09:00, 25 May 2014 (EDT)

Using the OoT design for her default image, when she isn't even using her OoT design in smash anymore, causes it to clash with her current smash appearance. Going with character designs that fit their current smash appearances not only makes more sense sense, but its also aesthetically better, as it creates consistency between her base profile and newer smash character page.
Ixbran (talk) 19:41, 25 May 2014 (EDT)

I agree with Miles and Ixbran here, the artwork in the infobox should be that of what inspired their appearance in the most recent Super Smash Bros. game (I thought this was already the case?). Since Sheik is returning with her Twilight Princess design, the artwork that's there now should stay. For characters like Sheik with static designs, there really isn't any need to put up artwork of that character from their latest game to "prepare" for their appearance in the next Smash Bros. There's absolutely nothing wrong with waiting until the game or the artwork of that character from that game is revealed and then updating. Preemptively updating the photo is extremely unnecessary. blue ninjakoopa 19:53, 25 May 2014 (EDT)

I'm mostly indifferent, primarily because most characters' designs are amalgamations of past appearances, but also because so many of them are more or less unchanging between each game outside of textures and polygon count. I'm with Chuck and Unknown, since the official art tends to be what the creators use to promote their characters, rather than concept art. I don't find it a big deal, either way, but since that's how I think, I don't see why this is being debated to begin with. MarioGalaxy_^Talk 18:00, 24 May 2014 (EDT)

I'm quite late to the party, but I believe that characters who go through a notable design change between games in which they actually appear should have that artwork. For example, Mario, whose appearance doesn't change at all (minus 3D World and Kart 8 having a more realistic cap emblem design), wouldn't update to Party 10, but Roy would update to Awakening. These articles aren't covering their Smash appearances, this covers their appearances in their own series, and thus, should appear as they currently do in their series, rather than Smash. Red (talk) 15:58, 11 June 2014 (EDT)

"These articles aren't covering their Smash appearances, this covers their appearances in their own series" why?

Why should we need to cover characters changes and histories in their own games, when we have links to their character articles dedicated too them in their own games on their smash pages. The SSB Wiki should only have to have the bare essentials, such as personality, and basic run down of their abilities. If those browsing the wiki really want to learn more about these characters histories, character relations, and see other art works of them, all they have to do is simply click the links provided. This is a Smash Bros. wiki, not a Nintendo Gaming Library Wiki.
Ixbran (talk) 18:50, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

These articles are only summaries of the character in their series. And the articles are relevant since Sheik is in Smash, and since she's in Smash it makes sense to have an article that is about her canon appearance in the Zelda games (not in depth like Zelda Wiki, but a brief summary of the character). And since this is about her appearance in the Zelda games and not Smash, as Red and I have stated, the image should reflect the game(s) she's actually appeared in regardless of conceptual designs. Unknown the Hedgehog 20:23, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

Actually, these articles are not summaries of the characters in their series. They are summaries of the fighters in the Smash series as a whole. You don't read about Sheik's role in Ocarana of Time. You see sections about Melee, Brawl and SSB4. Pages like Sheik (SSBB) are subpages that have more detailed info and data about the playable fighter in that game. If it was about Sheik's role in Ocarana of Time, it wouldn't belong here. You can find that page at Zelda Wiki. Anyway, I think I might have something to do with it. I did you guys to replace the Villager picture that show his artwork from New Leaf with the one from City Folk that resembles more like his Smash appearance. I think because of that change, we got this problem. There seems to be a reason why we use the artwork from their series. It's not because it's an article about the character as he/she appears in his/her own series, but so that they don't share the same profile pic as their recent fighter subpage. And I do think that each general character page should use the artwork that's the closest to Smash. However, in my opinion, concept artwork of a an appearance that didn't happen isn't a great choice of profile pic. Sure, the OoT pic is missing a few bandages, and Sakurai based her appearance on concept art. But I prefer the Oot artwork. I'm on Ixbran's side about having the artwork of characters closer to their Smash design, but I'm also on Chuck's side of not using concept artwork of a cancelled appearance. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:42, 13 June 2014 (EDT)

"You don't read about Sheik's role in Ocarana of Time."

Character description section? Summarizes her role in OoT pretty well. Unknown the Hedgehog 00:07, 14 June 2014 (EDT)

"Actually, these articles are not summaries of the characters in their series. They are summaries of the fighters in the Smash series as a whole."

By that logic, we wouldn't need the Dr. Mario or Roy pages, and just use the Melee pages. Red (talk) 15:41, 14 June 2014 (EDT)

(resetting indent) In addition it says on every page "For fighter info, see NAME (X).". This implies that this page is 'not for Smash info. Red (talk) 15:46, 14 June 2014 (EDT)

Okay, so they have a little background information. But if they have nothing about Smash Bros, they'd be candidates for deletion. But they are pretty much half their series and half Smash. And at least their background information isn't as detailed here as they are on the appropriate NIWA wiki. If I was the one who created this site, I would either have their game info in one big article or make these pages disambiguations. However, as this was the way it was since our Wikia days and I've already grown to like it and accepted it as a staple of Smash Wiki, I'm not going to propose anything. SeanWheeler (talk) 23:45, 14 June 2014 (EDT)

Artwork Take Two

Okay, since the other argument is over a year old, I'm going to bring this back up and hopefully it can be resolved quicker.

I don't like the idea of using Sheik's TP concept art in her infobox. While, yes, it does match her Brawl and Smash 4 designs, it's not official artwork and it feels weird to use it as a result. So I think we need to switch it out with her actual artwork from OoT.

I'm going to use Captain Falcon and Fox McCloud as support for my side of the argument, because neither of them have artwork from their home series that matches their appearances in Brawl/SSB4, so they use the closest thing (in Falcon's case, his most recent artwork; in Fox's case, Command). Sheik has no artwork for her TP appearance (because it doesn't exist), only concept art, which is nothing more than a doodle and is in no way official. She does have artwork for OoT, and it's even the basis of her appearance in Melee, so, like Falcon using his most recent artwork when he doesn't have any that matches his most recent appearance, Sheik should too (ignoring HW which just doesn't match anything at all). ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 14:23, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Continuing that point, Falco's artwork is not only Command as well, but his SF643D artwork is the one image in his gallery, noting the similarities between it and his redesign in Melee.

Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 14:35, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

The Star Fox characters are explicitly "composite" designs that blend elements from multiple games and original elements. Brawl/SSB4 Sheik is explicitly based on that exact TP concept art. We'd be remiss to exclude it. Besides, it was included in Hyrule Historia, which makes it "official" in a pretty clear way. Miles (talk) 14:45, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Wasn't there a layout that had Sheik's OoT artwork as default and TP on the side?

Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 14:57, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Contradicts how we have it on every other page (or should have it): most recent design's origin in the infobox, any other important past design on the side. That's how we have it for Link, Princess Zelda, and Ganondorf, among others: TP design used for Brawl/SSB4 in the infobox, OoT design used for 64/Melee on the side. Miles (talk) 15:00, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Smash 4 Sheik arguably has a resemblance to OoT Sheik.

Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 15:02, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

SSB4 Sheik is the same as the Brawl design (ponytail, dagger, etc.) and the Brawl design is confirmed by Sakurai to be based on TP concept art, which was officially published in a book by Nintendo. I don't see what the problem is here. Miles (talk) 15:05, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

(Reset indent) It's Nutta's argument, not mine...I'm just jumping on because I have similar thoughts and opinions. Aidan, Master of Speed and Aura 15:06, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Hyrule Historia using it as concept art in no way makes it official- it's still a doodle that's only intended to should what it could be. That's different from the promotional artwork that we use on every other character's page (excluding Lucas/Ice Climbers/Duck Hunt, who have no promotional art, so we use sprites), so it's also a consistency problem. And I'm not saying we should remove it- it should definitely be on there somewhere. But I feel like it's more professional to feature the promotional art, and have the conceptual doodle put to the side, like Ocarina Link or SF64 Fox. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 15:26, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

I don't understand why you're dismissively calling it a "doodle", when it's clearly one of the most polished designs in the HH concept art. Also, artwork doesn't have to be "promotional" to be "official", which is what has always been the term I thought we were going with. Miles (talk) 15:40, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Promotional artwork is artwork released officially by the company to go with and promote the game, and that's official. Concept artwork is artwork created well in advance of the game to show how a character, location, etc. could look in the final game, and is generally only released after the game has been out for awhile as an example of what could have happened. It's not official, it's just an example of the process. All other artwork is generally used in some way or another for promotion, and thus I find it meaningless to separate promotional art from official art.

Either way, this is not really a debate about whether or not the concept art is official (which, much like Linkle's HW artwork, Chicken Mario from NSMBW, etc., it really isn't) and more of a debate as to whether or not unofficial art/conceptual art really belongs in an infobox. I don't believe it does. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 15:57, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

I would agree to avoid using concept art in the infobox if it weren't explicitly stated as the source of the Smash design. That's what makes the difference in my mind. Miles (talk) 17:12, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Well, but we also have official artwork which is explicitly the source of the Smash design, just not the most recent one, and I think that a good way to avoid the unprofessionalism of using concept art in the infobox while still showing the source of Sheik's design is just to simply trade the images' locations. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 17:21, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

In my mind, it looks worse to have the Sheik page inconsistent with the Link, Zelda and Ganondorf pages than to have a polished piece of concept art in the infobox. Miles (talk) 17:25, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

It's inconsistent anyway since it isn't using official artwork while all the others are. I don't see how this is different from Toon Link not using TP artwork. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 17:29, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Because Toon Link doesn't have a TP-based design like the other 4 Zelda characters in Brawl/SSB4? Anyway, I don't think either of us are doing much to convince each other, so I think the right course of action is to hear what other users have to say. Miles (talk) 17:34, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

Yup, that was going to be my next comment. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 17:37, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

This is a concept art no a artwork, this is different. A concept art is before it is put into the final product. A artwork is to promote the final product. Sheik never appears in TP nor in the official promotion.Jf811 (talk) 17:59, 29 October 2015 (EDT)

It's now 3-1 in favor of OoT artwork. If no one else disagrees, I'll be changing it by the end of the day. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 13:38, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Aidan was repeating your argument, not agreeing with it. It's 2-1 and barely anyone has commented. There's no reason to rush it. Miles (talk) 14:08, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

He said he's jumping on it because he has similar thoughts and opinions, so I'd say unless he says otherwise that's an agreement. 3-1. And it's something as trivial as a picture. There's no need to drag it out. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 14:10, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

It's not "dragging it out" to want more voices heard total. Miles (talk) 14:13, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

I say keep the concept art, it is more accurate for Brawl and Sm4ash design, and is of excellent quality. It also is the most "current" one we have since it was in Hyrule Historia. I think it is 3-2 for OoT, too close to make a decision. DekZek, The creature of your nightmares

14:25, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

I don't see how it being in Hyrule Historia makes it official. Hyrule Historia also had rather polished artwork of Ganondorf from the Oracle series, but it's not considered official. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 14:37, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

This whole argument hinges on your definition of "official artwork". You defined it as artwork to "promote the final product", whereas I'm using it in the context of "published in Nintendo-licensed material". Nintendo published Hyrule Historia. As I said, I agree that concept art is usually not preferred because of its rougher nature compared to art used in promotional contexts, but we know for a fact that this is the source and there's no "promotional"-level versions of this art to use instead. So why not use it? Miles (talk) 14:54, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

I might agree if there were no alternative (i.e. for Purlo). However, Sheik has artwork that corresponds to her design, even if it is slightly outdated. ---Preceding unsigned comment added by BOO! Or maybe Nutta. 14:56, 30 October 2015 (EDT)

Anyone else? ---Preceding unsigned comment added by a turkey! Or maybe DatNuttyKid. 12:50, 3 November 2015 (EST)

Way to kick a horse when its down Nutta, you couldn't just leave it well enough alone could you? I vote Keep the TP Artwork. It may be concept art work, but its still official concept art work. Regardless of what the cry babies say, it follows the template of using art work that closely resembles a player characters current Smash design.
Ixbran (talk) 16:15, 14 May 2016 (EDT)

This topic settled months ago. There was no need to reply to it. Disaster Flare

(talk) 16:19, 14 May 2016 (EDT)

My bad, I tend to stop coming to this wiki for set periods of time, so when I checked here I had thought it was still recent. Sorry for that.
Ixbran (talk) 20:47, 24 May 2016 (EDT)

"Gender dispute"

Do we really need several paragraphs talking about Sheik's gender? BubzieBobkat brought this up earlier. The whole thing is seriously outdated and kind of makes a mountain out of a molehill, and it's kind of demeaning to have a "gender dispute" be a major part of her character description. Furthermore, it gives an inordinate amount of focus what is/was largely only an issue within stringent parts of the fanbases, and not official info. The section could basically be truncated to "Sheik is occasionally assumed to be male or a male persona of Zelda, but it is the official stance of Nintendo that Sheik is female, just as Zelda is." Or something along those lines. ~ StrawberryChan (talk) 20:43, November 5, 2020 (EST)

Agreed. Even something like if Meta Knight is the same species as Kirby (which arguably has more modern discussion) is condensed into one sentence on his page. --CanvasK (talk) 21:45, November 5, 2020 (EST)

I agree as well. It only needs 1, maybe 2 sentences worth of notice. Blue Ninjakoopa 16:50, November 12, 2020 (EST)

The final paragraph (detailing how Ultimate uses different pronouns in different instances) may be worth keeping since it's more directly relevant to Smash, but I'm inclined to agree that the rest of it can be condensed. --PeabodySam (talk) 17:46, November 12, 2020 (EST)

Yeah, that'd be fine in my eyes as well. ~ StrawberryChan (talk) 20:25, November 12, 2020 (EST)

I take it the long section is because Smash partially resulted in and is embroiled in the debate. That being said, that hardly warrants its own section, let alone several paragraphs, and not on SmashWiki where most of the cited info is hardly relevant. Otherwise, we should do the same thing on Birdo's page, and that just feels dumb. - EndGenuity (talk) 18:03, November 12, 2020 (EST)