User talk:Mr. Anon/Melee Vs Brawl

If you disagree with the content of the essay, or have found errors or holes, bring it up here. Anon 18:45, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Minor quibble, but L-cancelling is not a physics exploit like wavedashing is, although it is presented as such. It should be slightly reworded. Toomai Glittershine 20:08, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

If it isn't a physics exploit, is it a glitch? Anon 20:54, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

L Caneling is a technique. Read the articles Anon.--MegaTron1XD 20:55, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's a technique. That doesn't mean it can't be a glitch or a physics exploit. Wavedashing was a "technique". Was L canceling intentionally put into the games, or is it a glitch? That's what I'm asking. Anon 20:59, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

Intentionally. Doctor Pain 99 (CTE) 21:00, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

OK then, I'll change it. Anon 21:08, July 25, 2010 (UTC)

So, is there any other error you guys see? Sir Anon the great 17:36, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

There are two particular errors I see. You should never used the words "cheap" and "broken" in a serious essay about competitive gaming unless you're using them to make a point. Your sentence "Yes, Brawl does have Meta Knight and Snake, 2 of the most broken characters in probably the history of SSB." is faulty for describing Meta Knight and Snake as "broken". The terms "cheap" and "broken" are subjective and should never be used in an objective standpoint. The second fault is how you mention Fox lost his Shine spike in Brawl, which he did not. He lost his Shine combos. Omega Tyrant 18:08, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about that. It's fixed now. Anon 18:18, August 18, 2010 (UTC)

I agree that brawl is quite a bit more balanced, and getting rid of hitstun and physics exploits and such does balance it, but I kinda think having special techniques that are sorta hard to execute like wavedashing do add to the competitiveness. It draws a line between competitive and casual players, and don't really agree that more balanced=more competitive. If so, the tournies would make everyone play as one character to balance out the match and make it based on skill. I get what your trying to say though. Also... "In football, weather is unpredictable, much like tripping in Brawl, and it can turn the tide of a match. But does that make football less competitive? Of course not." I don't really agree. It seems a lot of this essay said "Brawl is more balanced and thus more based skill and more competitive," and while I disagree with that, I think basing it on luck is a lot less competitive than basing it on wavedashing and other physics exploits.Dhawk (talk) 21:07, 8 December 2010 (EST)

Would fall under forum rules. Too old, shouldn't respond.--MegaTron1XD 22:33, 8 December 2010 (EST)

Not necessarily, this is a user subpage, that Anon been opened up to discussion about. Dhawk is merely commenting on what is presented on the subpage, not responding to any particular old comment. As such, just like any mainspace article, the content of an active user's subpage is always opened for discussion, regardless of how old it is. Omega Tyrant 22:46, 8 December 2010 (EST)

Edit Conflict

No, it's fine. The purpose of this talk page is to express any disagreement with my essay. Anyways, in response to Dhawk's points, my point was to counter the claim that wavedashing makes a game more competitive. Just because the game has a technique that is hard to execute doesn't mean that it is more based on skill. For one, there's only 2 characters that greatly benefit from Wavedashing: Marth and Luigi. Both had pretty much no changes in tier position between Melee and Brawl. You also say that it "draws a line between competitive and casual players". But being able to execute a technique that is unintended and not very often used does not make one competetive. There are many casual players who know how to wavedash and competitive players who don't, so it doesn't really draw a line. You also say that a balanced cast is not what makes a game competitive. You're right in that it's not the sole factor, but it is a contributing one. Obviously not everyone has to play as one character, as that would reduce the original fun, but a balanced cast allows for a tournament with a more diverse character set. In Melee, the range of characters that are "tourny acceptable" is much smaller than the proportial one in Brawl.

As for tripping, I may have worded my point wrong. I didn't mean that tripping made the game more competetive. Instead, I merely refuted the argument that it makes Brawl a "party game". Tripping simply adds another variable to the match, much like stale move negation, yet it happens to be based on randomness. When it comes to reduced hitstun, my point was that it allows for more "improvised" strategies, testing the players live skill, whereas super high hitstun (such as the one in SSB64), more or less makes the match based off of whoever hits the other player first. Mr. Anon (talk) 22:56, 8 December 2010 (EST)

Not that I intend to argue, but one of your presented facts is false, Luigi and Marth are not the only characters who saw significant benefit to their metagame from wavedashing. Fox's signature "Waveshines" were possible because of wavedashing. The Ice Climbers and Mewtwo (who both had the second and third longest wavedashes respectively) also had a significant use for the wavedash. Like Luigi, both of these characters could traverse ground fastest through the use of their wavedash. Omega Tyrant 00:16, 9 December 2010 (EST)

Forgot about those, but my point still lies, none of those characters have significantly been weakened by the loss of wavedashing. Fox may have possibly been, but he was nerfed in many other areas too, so wavedashing isn't the only reason for his drop. Mr. Anon (talk) 00:30, 9 December 2010 (EST)

...Touche. Okay I have no argument against all that....I feel like I should fill up more space with this after all that...Dhawk (talk) 11:33, 12 December 2010 (EST)