Talk:Luigi (SSBU)

Should the Luigi Cyclone bugfix be treated as both a bugfix and a nerf

I'm given to understand that some form of a discussion on the topic occurred on the discord server, but this discussion was not properly documented, was likely to be pretty informal, and many SmashWiki users were unable to participate for one reason or another, which is why I think a proper consensus-style discussion on the matter should occur here.

As for my stance, I believe that we should list as a subpoint that this bugfix did hinder the utility of the move somewhat, and these are my key points as to why we should do so:

• All attacks, Luigi Cyclone included, are objectively more useful when the user is invincible for the duration of the move.
• The technique, while not exactly easy, was not so difficult as to prevent it from feasibly being used at the tournament level.
• There aren't a large number of examples of the technique being performed in a beneficial manner, however this is largely due to its short lifespan, as it did not take long for Nintendo to remove it once it was discovered, and had it remained players would have gotten better at performing it
• Bugfixes are not exclusively neutral and thus should not be treated as such. Some bugs can be beneficial or detrimental to fighters as well as neutral.
• A nerf is a nerf, regardless of the opinions of some about how significant a nerf it was.

Regarding whether the same treatment should be given to other bugfixes, a case by case basis is of course required. If a bug has both positive and negative effects, and it is difficult to determine whether it was beneficial or detrimental overall then there is no sense in listing it as a buff or a nerf, however this is clearly not the case here.

That's my 2 cents on the matter. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 17:29, November 19, 2019 (EST)

Support. There is no legitimate reason not to have this listed as a nerf. We list other fighter bugfixes as nerfs, for example Ness' Yo-yo glitch that was prevalent in Melee and fixed in Brawl. This is a similar case, and while some might consider this unimportant, the fact remains: it is still a nerf. As such, I think it should be added back onto the page for all of the reasons Alex and I previously listed. Your Senpai, Iron Warrior 11:44, November 20, 2019 (EST)

Bumping this... Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 18:00, December 1, 2019 (EST)

Bump again... Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 12:32, December 10, 2019 (EST)

Strong oppose No no no no a million times no. This is simply a bug fix. Super Cyclone was not useful in any meaningful way. It was a situational technique that worked once at best. While the move can't be punished with it, it's still slow, doesn't go anywhere and gives Luigi no advantage due to its extremely long animation (FAF 86). it could only be done on platforms, limiting where you used it, as well as on the ledge. Cyclone sends up and doesn't rise much anymore, making it much less useful than literally every other tool Luigi has on the ledge. The move can maybe work once, but once the opponent knows you go for it, they're not gonna get hit by it again and you'll lose stage control.

The loss of z-drop during hitstun isn't listed as a nerf for characters with items. That's a much more impactful bug fix than Super Cyclone. It is not a nerf, it's a bug fix. The invincibility wasn't cleared on the same frame aerial and grounded due to them not having the same invincibility frames (1-7 vs 4-8). This bug didn't impact Luigi's metagame in the slightest.  Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck (talk) 17:24, January 4, 2020 (EST)

It seems as though your main argument here is that the technique's usefulness was fairly minor. This is not really all that relevant, as we list changes as buffs and nerfs even when they're very minor. As for saying it's "not useful in any meaningful way", that is simply incorrect. It may not be hugely useful, but it is useful, if nothing else for a very long lagless dodge at the very least, and arguably for more as well. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 17:30, January 4, 2020 (EST)

If you use Super Cyclone, your opponent can take control of the stage, charge whatever charge move they have and just wait for the move to end. Luigi's game plan is to hit you with a combo starter to lead into high damage. Cyclone doesn't combo into anything and does nothing good for Luigi in the few applications Super Cyclone could be used. It's just not a big enough deal for me to call a nerf. It has a designation : Bug Fix. They fixed a bug that didn't do anything concrete for Luigi in the first place. Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck (talk) 22:19, January 4, 2020 (EST)

Listen, I'm aware that the bug's utility wasn't huge or anything, although I think you're underselling it a bit too, but what sets this apart from most bugfixes is that they are usually fairly neutral, mostly because if the bug is accidentally triggered it can be a detriment, but accidentally triggering invincibility to last for the entire move, even if not always beneficial, will never harm you, so this bugfix can only be seen as a nerf, even if it's not a particularly large one. To suggest that stating this bugfix "slightly hinders Luigi Cyclone's utility" is misinformation as you keep claiming is pretty dishonest, as nothing about this suggests that it was a major technique. Alex the Jigglypuff trainer 07:38, January 5, 2020 (EST)

Down throw buff

I'm trying to understand why Luigi’s down throw has less endlag from Smash 4. It says it no longer applies 6 frames of hitlag to the opponent and this reduces the duration by 5 frames. Sadly I'm not too knowledgeable on how hitlag affects moves. Don't both characters suffer hitlag? I'm pretty confused. SacredFire37 (talk) 06:47, April 17, 2021 (EDT)

For throws, similarly to with projectiles, only the thrown character experiences hitlag, which is why hitlag is normally disabled. In Smash 4, the opponent was released on frame 18, but knockback wouldn't begin until frame 24, making this the effective throw frame. In Ultimate, the hitlag was removed, but the opponent is now released on frame 29, 5 frames later than the effective throw frame of 24. Since Luigi can interrupt his throw on the same frame of the animation in both games (frame 41), this means that the ending lag of the throw - the amount of time after the opponent has been launched that Luigi is unable to act - is 5 frames shorter. Alex the Weeb 07:24, April 17, 2021 (EDT)

Ah ok that makes sense. Thanks for explaining it in depth. SacredFire37 (talk) 08:17, April 17, 2021 (EDT)

Did Luigi actually get nerfed from Smash 4?

He definitely got some significant nerfs (mainly that Luigi Cyclone can't be used for recovery anymore and his new tether grab being slower), but he also got a lot of buffs to his moveset. Overall, I don't think it's really clear whether or not he got buffed or nerfed in the transition (similar to Marth's transition from Melee to Brawl). However, I understand that this is my view so it isn't definitive. What I'm wondering is if it is objective that Luigi was nerfed. SacredFire (talk). 18:26, October 10, 2021 (EDT)

Overall Luigi isn't much different. He's just more polarized (pros got better, cons got worse). He's isn't better or worse, he's just different. Hitbox Enthusiast Zeck (talk) 02:02, October 11, 2021 (EDT)

Is that why he's considered to be a "badly designed" character (hopefully this is ok to ask on the talk page)? SacredFire (talk). 09:55, October 11, 2021 (EDT)