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Marth (SSBB): Difference between revisions
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==Changes from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl''== | ==Changes from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl''== | ||
It is difficult to tell whether Marth has been buffed or nerfed from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl'' since he received both significant buffs and nerfs. Physics changes both buffed and nerfed Marth at the same time. Marth's incredible ground movement isn't nearly as effectively as it were in ''Melee'' as Marth no longer has a long dash dance or a wavedash. Additionally Marth's overall reach is considerably smaller, with the most noticeable range reductions in his grab range, tilts, and forward smash. As a result Marth's neutral game as a whole is weakened, due to much less safe movement, approach, and poke options. Additionally, Marth's large combo potential and phenomenal edgeguarding ability were heavily nerfed in the transition from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl'', as Marth can no longer create extended, near 0 to death juggles with the aid of platforms and also can no longer close out stocks consistently when he edgeguards due to the loss of consistency in his down air as well as ''Brawl'' physics. At the same time though, Marth's combo and edgeguarding ability, while not fatal in most cases, still remains alot better than most and the ''Brawl'' physics help alleviate one of his critical character flaws in his poor recovery. The universal nerf of mobility options also helps Marth zone out his opponents better, though the aforementioned reach nerfs offset this | It is difficult to tell whether Marth has been buffed or nerfed from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl'' since he received both significant buffs and nerfs. Physics changes both buffed and nerfed Marth at the same time. Marth's incredible ground movement isn't nearly as effectively as it were in ''Melee'' as Marth no longer has a long dash dance or a wavedash. Additionally Marth's overall reach is considerably smaller, with the most noticeable range reductions in his grab range, tilts, and forward smash. As a result Marth's neutral game as a whole is weakened, due to much less safe movement, approach, and poke options. Additionally, Marth's large combo potential and phenomenal edgeguarding ability were heavily nerfed in the transition from ''Melee'' to ''Brawl'', as Marth can no longer create extended, near 0 to death juggles with the aid of platforms and also can no longer close out stocks consistently when he edgeguards due to the loss of consistency in his down air as well as ''Brawl'' physics. At the same time though, Marth's combo and edgeguarding ability, while not fatal in most cases, still remains alot better than most and the ''Brawl'' physics help alleviate one of his critical character flaws in his poor recovery. The universal nerf of mobility options also helps Marth zone out his opponents better, though the aforementioned reach nerfs offset this a bit. The removal of knockback reduction with crouch canceling also greatly benefits Marth, effectively removing one of his weaknesses in Melee where many of his non-tipper moves were crouch-cancelable at low percents. His aerials are also considerably stronger when tipped and can KO much earlier, but they are however, much harder to sweetspot consistently and due to ''Brawl'' physics, cannot be easily combo'ed into. As such, while Marth has more potential killing options at high percents, he can only secure those high percent KOs with extremely precise spacing, which is difficult to do consistently at high level play. | ||
*{{buff|Significantly faster [[air speed]].}} | *{{buff|Significantly faster [[air speed]].}} | ||
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*{{buff|Due to his forward throw no longer being DI'able at very low percents, he can now set up a forward throw to tipper forward smash on almost the entire cast (with certain characters like another Marth and Snake requiring Shutter step) for a quick 25% damage. He can also [[chain throw]] a few characters with it at very low percents, with some of them being able to be combined with his down throw, like Fox, Falco, and Pikachu.}} | *{{buff|Due to his forward throw no longer being DI'able at very low percents, he can now set up a forward throw to tipper forward smash on almost the entire cast (with certain characters like another Marth and Snake requiring Shutter step) for a quick 25% damage. He can also [[chain throw]] a few characters with it at very low percents, with some of them being able to be combined with his down throw, like Fox, Falco, and Pikachu.}} | ||
*{{buff|Up throw can now KO earlier, at about 185% on light characters instead of around 250%.}} | *{{buff|Up throw can now KO earlier, at about 185% on light characters instead of around 250%.}} | ||
*{{buff|The removal of [[crouch cancelling]] greatly improves the utility of [[Dancing Blade]]. It now hits on frame 4. Additionally, there is less technical precision needed to input each consecutive strike allowing it to be done much faster and easier. Barring incredible SDI, it thus fairly combos into all 4 hits reliably, which combined with its low start-up and being possible to use out of a dash makes it | *{{buff|The removal of [[crouch cancelling]] greatly improves the utility of [[Dancing Blade]]. It now hits on frame 4. Additionally, there is less technical precision needed to input each consecutive strike allowing it to be done much faster and easier. Barring incredible SDI, it thus fairly combos into all 4 hits reliably, which combined with its low start-up and being possible to use out of a dash makes it a excellent quick punish. It also has increased utility in being able to refresh other moves with the much more severe stale-move negation (as each individual slash counts towards stale-move negation). Its ability to punish [[sidestepping]] has greatly improved to thanks to it being faster.}} | ||
*{{buff|[[Dolphin Slash]] gives a bit more horizontal distance, and its sourspot hitboxes are stronger. It also has more [[invincibility frame]]s, lasting between frames 1 and 5, improving its use as an [[Out of Shield]] option and allowing Marth to escape most chaingrabs and have a sort of second counter. | *{{buff|[[Dolphin Slash]] gives a bit more horizontal distance, and its sourspot hitboxes are stronger. It also has more [[invincibility frame]]s, lasting between frames 1 and 5, improving its use as an [[Out of Shield]] option and allowing Marth to escape most chaingrabs and have a sort of second counter. | ||
*{{buff|[[Counter]] deals 1.1x damage back with a minimum of 8% damage dealt, unlike the fixed 7% it dealt in ''Melee'', and it no longer has [[set knockback]]. In addition, the counter has slightly faster [[startup]] being 2 frames faster.}} | *{{buff|[[Counter]] deals 1.1x damage back with a minimum of 8% damage dealt, unlike the fixed 7% it dealt in ''Melee'', and it no longer has [[set knockback]]. In addition, the counter has slightly faster [[startup]] being 2 frames faster.}} | ||
*{{nerf|Most of the tipper hitboxes in his attacks are significantly more difficult to land, due to their hitboxes having generally smaller size, particularly in his down aerial and his ground moves.}} | *{{nerf|Most of the tipper hitboxes in his attacks are significantly more difficult to land, due to their hitboxes having generally smaller size, particularly in his down aerial and his ground moves.}} | ||
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*{{nerf|His forward smash has significantly less horizontal and vertical range. The tipper hitbox is also much smaller, overall making platform tippers extremely rare and difficult. Most of his other attacks have slightly shorter range, due to his sword now being slightly shorter.}} | *{{nerf|His forward smash has significantly less horizontal and vertical range. The tipper hitbox is also much smaller, overall making platform tippers extremely rare and difficult. Most of his other attacks have slightly shorter range, due to his sword now being slightly shorter.}} | ||
*{{nerf|His [[grab]] range is much shorter as well, especially his dash grab. The removal of jump-cancel grabbing is also a particularly harsh nerf for Marth; coupled with the poorer range on the dash grab and loss of dash dancing, it is significantly harder to land grabs.}} | *{{nerf|His [[grab]] range is much shorter as well, especially his dash grab. The removal of jump-cancel grabbing is also a particularly harsh nerf for Marth; coupled with the poorer range on the dash grab and loss of dash dancing, it is significantly harder to land grabs.}} | ||
*{{nerf|While his forward air's tipper hitbox was strengthened, it is still not particularly powerful even when fresh. Additionally | *{{nerf|While his forward air's tipper hitbox was strengthened, it is still not particularly powerful even when fresh. Additionally it's now horizontal knockback, hinders the move's ability to combo into other aerials, grab or forward smash.}} | ||
*{{nerf|Down aerial's tipper hitbox is much smaller and more difficult to land, and it is much more difficult to combo into it. As a result, the loss of a reliable sweetspot renders Marth incapable of getting consistent edgeguards. Additionally, the move has significantly less utility, no longer being a useful tech chase option, an out of shield option, or a combo starter from the ground.}} | *{{nerf|Down aerial's tipper hitbox is much smaller and more difficult to land, and it is much more difficult to combo into it. As a result, the loss of a reliable sweetspot renders Marth incapable of getting consistent edgeguards. Additionally, the move has significantly less utility, no longer being a useful tech chase option, an out of shield option, or a combo starter from the ground.}} | ||
*{{nerf|Up throw can no longer [[chaingrab]] [[fastfaller]]s at all and no longer can be followed up reliably on. }} | *{{nerf|Up throw can no longer [[chaingrab]] [[fastfaller]]s at all and no longer can be followed up reliably on. }} | ||