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| == "Lost" veterans == | | == "Lost" veterans == |
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| This page lists Bowser, DK, and Samus as confirmed for SSB Switch. [[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate|The game page]] doesn't - it mentions them as visible, but stops short of calling them confirmed. Which one is right? It doesn't seem sensible to have the two disagree like this. --[[User:Keiya|Keiya]] ([[User talk:Keiya|talk]]) 16:07, 9 April 2018 (EDT) | | This page lists Bowser, DK, and Samus as confirmed for SSB Switch. [[Super Smash Bros. Ultimate|The game page]] doesn't - it mentions them as visible, but stops short of calling them confirmed. Which one is right? It doesn't seem sensible to have the two disagree like this. --[[User:Keiya|Keiya]] ([[User talk:Keiya|talk]]) 16:07, 9 April 2018 (EDT) |
| :For the record, if you posted this same thing [[Talk:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate|already once]], you don't have to do it twice. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:19, 9 April 2018 (EDT) | | :For the record, if you posted this same thing [[Talk:Super Smash Bros. Ultimate|already once]], you don't have to do it twice. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the Rurouni'''</span>]] 22:19, 9 April 2018 (EDT) |
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| == Fighter Numbers ==
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| So in both the reveal trailer and the website, each fighter was given a number according to the order they were introduced into the series. The question I want to ask is if we should consider this something that deserves to be listed, on this page and on character infoboxes.
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| If we ''do'' end up going for listing fighter numbers on this page, it would also give us an official way to order the characters, since no game's CSS (before Ultimate) has every Smash character ever on it. Note that the table can be sorted by any column, so viewers can still order characters alphabetically or however.
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| (I would have made this a proposal, but I made my account specifically to do that and I don't want to wait four days.)
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| '''Edit:''' Be sure to also check out [[Template talk:Infobox Character General#Fighter Numbers|my related discussion point on the character infobox talk page]]!
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| Vote below. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| === Yes, list the numbers of each character ===
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| # '''Support.''' I mean, I wouldn't have brought it up otherwise. It's the most official order for every fighter currently in Smash, it can easily be extended, and it's not as though it would be a huge undertaking to put them there. As for character infoboxes, we already list character's species, gender, and place of origin; and I would argue that these numbers are more pertinent to Smash than all of those. --[[User:Ahemtoday|Ahemtoday]] ([[User talk:Ahemtoday|talk]]) 17:41, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #'''List the numbers, but don't sort them by default in that order.''' I think it should be an option to list them by Ultimate's official order, but it's not an order that any other installment uses, so it might be overemphasizing Ultimate if we used that as the basis of the list. [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 17:48, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #'''List the numbers.''' I agree! If we can make it official, then let's do it! [[User:Dragonfirebreath25|Dragonfirebreath25]] ([[User talk:Dragonfirebreath25|talk]]) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #I agree with Nyargleblargle. [[User:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#FF0000">Unknown </font>]] [[User talk:Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#780000">the </font>]] [[Special:Contributions/Unknown the Hedgehog|<font color="#000000">Hedgehog</font>]] 17:52, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #'''Put the numbers in a column.''' That way, people can sort by them if they want to. [[User:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''Aidan'''</span>]], [[User talk:Aidanzapunk|<span style="color: blue;">'''the College-Bound Rurouni'''</span>]] 17:56, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #Agreed. It is official after all. Definitely needs a column. [[User:Master Zach|Master Zach]] ([[User talk:Master Zach|talk]]) 17:58, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #'''Ultimate Support'''. I did just do it after all. [[User: RobSir_zx|<span style="color:orange">Rob</span>]][[User talk:RobSir_zx|<span style="color:blue">'''Sir '''</span>]][[File:RobSir-sig.jpg|16px]] [[Special:Contributions/RobSir zx|<span style="color:red">zx</span>]] 19:32, 14 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #'''Support''' Fully agree with Nyargleblargle. [[User:Awesomelink234|<span style="font-size:10pt;background:#00FF20;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px;color:#050DF7">Awesomelink234, the Super Cool Sonic Fan</span>]] [[User talk:Awesomelink234|Leave a message if needed]] 02:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #'''Even official media from Ultimate is using the numbers''' https://www.smashbros.com/en_US/fighter/index.html[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #*'''The order in Smash ultimate fighter selection sorting follow the official number order'''[[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #*'''It is not arbitrary and uses a historical precedent in the order of fighters first seen by the public, as can be seen here:''' https://sourcegaming.info/2018/06/14/what-do-smash-ultimates-character-numbers-mean/ [[User:Shideravan|Shideravan]] ([[User talk:Shideravan|talk]]) 19:27, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
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| === No, the numbers aren't notable enough ===
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| #'''No.''' I don't see any ''actual'' supporting arguments here.
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| #*"It could be official." Even ignoring the "could", [[SW:OFFICIAL]] says "so what?". I'd also like to note that the numbers are extremely arbitrary in the sense that they depend on the order Sakurai chose to reveal characters in the past, so they're not particularly ''useful'' unless we determine they have an in-game purpose.
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| #*"It can easily be extended." Yes but ''will'' it be? If the next game ignores the numbers, we're left with an incomplete set and might have to remove them. And what happens if someone gets decloned? Melee's clones were absolutely clones at the time; would Sakurai have assigned them "echo" status if he'd considered the idea? We might end up with a per-game list of numbers and that kind of defeats the purpose.
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| #*"It's not hard to add them." ...so what? A lot of stuff is "easy", that doesn't mean it's correct.
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| #:Now, here's my main argument for leaving the numbers out: There's currently no evidence that the numbers are actually ''important''. I happen to think they're just marketing hype for the "all veterans are returning" shtick. If it turns out that they designate the unlock order or something else in-game, then sure add them to the relevant SSBU pages. (After all, "it's easy", so there's no need to scramble to do it now, right?) But for now? No thanks. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Spectrum 10:09, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #::Your second point is honestly a pretty big concern. Maybe we could integrate the numbers into the Ultimate column somehow as a solution for the incomplete set thing?
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| #::However, I don't think [[SW:OFFICIAL]] means that we shouldn't offer the numbering as an option to sort through the list ''at all''; there's not really any precedent for ignoring official info entirely as far as I can recall. We cover unofficial terms and subjects because that makes it easier to view comprehensive information about the series, so I don't see why that shouldn't be the case for official material as well. I could see plenty of people choosing to sort this list based on Ultimate's order because of how it kind of encapsulates the evolution of the roster. Also, as for the marketing hype point you made, we discuss the Dojo and Pics of the Day pretty often and reference them in articles, so why not do the same for this game's marketing materials? [[File:Nyargleblargle.png|16px]][[User: Nyargleblargle|<span style="color:LawnGreen">'''Nyargle</span>]][[User talk:Nyargleblargle|<span style="color: orange;">'''blargle'''</span>]] ([[Special:Contributions/Nyargleblargle|Contribs]]) 19:29, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #:::Yes the officialness point is a weak one, I'm not going to try to debate it. More important are the "what about the future" and "it's not particularly useful" ones. In fact, I thought of something to add to the "not useful" point: even though Sonic was practically added to Brawl after everyone else, late enough to cause a delay, he's not the last Brawl newcomer in the Sakurai Numbers because he was revealed on the website before Dedede and a bunch of others. It's almost anti-useful in that sense.
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| #:::The pic-of-the-day stuff is different because it generally always contained in-game content. As far as we know, the numbers do not exist in-game. [[User:Toomai|Toomai]] [[User talk:Toomai|Glittershine]] [[Image:Toomai.png|20px|link=User:Toomai/Bin|???]] The Jiggy 22:48, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #'''Nah''' The numbering order is confusing, and overall, it's just not important enough to have it. <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:32, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
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| #:What I mean by confusing by the way is that it makes no sense to have "echo" characters listed as the same character, plus it could easily get confused that these numbers are actually character IDs, which they aren't. Also, there's the fact that this order only applies to one game of 5. As far as I know, none of the other games number their characters this way.
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| #:Also sorry for the revert, I didn't know this conversation existed., but either way, a consensus should be reached before the change is implemented <span style="font-family:Algerian;font-size:10pt;background:#000;border:outset #083 2px;padding:1px 3px">'''[[User:Serpent King|<span style="color:#083">Serpent</span>]] [[File:SKSig.png|12px|link=]] [[User talk:Serpent King|<span style="color:#ed0">King</span>]]'''</span> 19:38, 24 June 2018 (EDT)
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| == NPC Specification ==
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| If we're putting notes about Ridley's Boss/Hazard appearances in the Playable Characters chart, shouldn't we also have ones for Charizard and Little Mac's Pokeball/Assist Trophy appearances? It feels a bit inconsistent not to. --[[User:Burb|Burb]] ([[User talk:Burb|talk]]) 08:12, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
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| == Smash Bros. Universe unlockable characters ==
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| It has been confirmed in the [https://youtu.be/akohTFyGu88?t=22m32s Nintendo Direct: E3 2018] that your starting roster is the original N64 roster, and everyone else will be unlockable. It is discussable if the 4 unlockable N64 characters will be unlockabe too or not, but looking at how it was presented: all 12 characters faded in as he said which were available from the start, and all other characters slided in as he talked about unlocking characters, making it look like all 12 original will be available from the start. [[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 08:17, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
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| :The direct didn't use definitive wording. Your roster ''may'' be as small as the original fighters. I don't think that's confirmation. It's more like when Sakurai said there might be one or two more third-party characters in Brawl. He didn't mean it literally; he was introducing it as a concept. [[User:TheNuttyOne|TheNuttyOne]] 20:56, 15 June 2018 (EDT)
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| ::According to [https://youtu.be/Cb3gWV-3_nE?t=3m26s GameXplain's video coverage] of the Famitsu interview of Sakurai and the Ultimate's development; it sounds like it's definitely decided that the starting roster is the Smash 64 roster. At least the non-Smash 64 characters can be marked as unlockable.
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| ::On the topic of if the unlockable Smash 64 characters will be starters or unlockable; as the statement was that the Smash 64 characters were starters, and not the starter Smash 64 characters were the starters, all 12 should be expected to be unlocked. Looking back at the E3 2018 video, all 12 character faded in (the unlockable a moment after) as he talked about the starters, and everyone else slided in whilst he talked about unlockables.
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| ::Either way, I think it's starting to be pretty clear that all the non-core 12 characters will be unlockables.
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| ::[[User:Liggliluff|Liggliluff]] ([[User talk:Liggliluff|talk]]) 23:56, 22 June 2018 (EDT)
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